Six Axis - Uneven Throttle Distribution

  • Thread starter Alan_G
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I'll probably finish with this demo now and hope this throttle problem is fixed for the full GT5 (although I may be dragged in again

well waiting and hoping wont fix the problem, the problem exists since gt5p and discusing the problem among racing forum users wont bring enough attention to the masses who are interested to buy the game, i also suspect that the uneven trotle distribution is a marketing trick to sell more wheels.
i dont think its fair! and thear are millions of potential gt5 users who dont even know that they are put in a dissadvantage , if using a controler!

wee shuld make a video , a comparison wheel against the controller, and explain in detail, what is happening, even include other racing games if necesery.
i dont want to see a bad quality video made by one, two ppl with a phone camera and posted blury on youtube, i want to see many sixaxis users worke together and make a hd video that maches the quality of popular game review website an is very rich on information.
ihe question is.. who can do that... ..?

so that way wee generate a lot of attentoion and PD will have to respond..
 
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R1600Turbo: I'm not sure how much difference modifying the controller will make! I did a more in depth analysis of the throttle problem (mostly out of temper from getting wheelspin exiting onto the back straight!).

On the throttle gauge, the amount increases in increments. Here is what I've found:

- The lowest throttle output above zero is around 12%.
- Between 0-25% there are around 15 increments.
- Between 25-50% there are around 20 increments.
- Between 50-75% there are around 9 increments.
- Between 75-100% there are exactly 6 increments!!

The problem is that above 75% throttle output, there are only around 6 increments, meaning it is impossible to use this area perfectly and accurately.

I really want to put the nail in the ground on this one, because there is no reason the throttle should be like this, and this puts pad users at an unfair disadvantage against wheel users (probably largely Logitech wheels, which just happen to have exclusive support with GT5...).

The exit of a corner is the most important part to it, because you don't just lose speed for that part of the corner, but you lose speed the whole way down the following straight/section. For exiting corners, you need to be able to find around 75% and squeeze up from there, typically around 85-95% before hitting full throttle. Pad users cannot do this practically.

The racing line for exiting corners dictates the amount of throttle one can use, relative to the grip limit of the car. And this racing line just happens to correspond to around 75-90% throttle, to get the ideal speed for exiting. The problem for pad users is that we cannot properly use this area of the throttle. Therefore there are two choices:

1) We don't takes optimal speed out of corners (and lose time over the following section).
or
2) We change the racing line appropriately (which is still slower).

I looked at the replays for several pad users, and wheel users. The pad users all have the same problem - exiting corners they struggle to get to grips with the 75-100% area of the throttle; the throttle is just flicking wildly around above 75%. Wheel/pedal users can do it just as desired. Even have a look at Yamauchi's laps: Exiting almost every corner, he hits around 80%, smoothly squeezes up a bit, and then up to 100%, taking great speed out of corners. Pedal users increments are very smooth above 75%, which is very important.

I shaved 1 tenth off my Tuned time today, to 1'37.0, and am very frustrated as I can see where I'm losing so much time. I'll probably finish with this demo now and hope this throttle problem is fixed for the full GT5 (although I may be dragged in again - I'm 3rd overall in my country, and I read there is a round for the top 20 per country or something...not sure).

I don't know if anybody who has anything got to do with PD would ever read this forum, but in the vain hope - Fix the damn pad throttle distribution!

:dunce:

What he said. :P
 
I dont think the reason they did this is for selling more wheels.

I think that a casual user doesnt even notice the problem.

BUT on such a high level competition as the Academy TT it is a huge disadvantage for the pad users.

To make a video about the problem and post it on YouTube would increase the chances that someone from Polyphony Digital would see it and corrects it..
 
Just another pad user who's noticed the problem, I've got a G25, but have recently moved and don't have the wheel set-up yet, so have had to learn to use the pad.

I assumed my fingers were just pathetic, as I tried using L2/R2, the sticks, and even X and [] and didn't seem to get a decent amount of throttle control in that crucial area...

This is with both a standard Sixaxis and a DS3.

I hadn't really experimented with the braking, it's interesting to see that that is perfectly linear. This undeniably points to the software. Especially if remapping the buttons etc. still shows the same problem.

How strange...
 
I dont think the reason they did this is for selling more wheels.

I think that a casual user doesnt even notice the problem.

BUT on such a high level competition as the Academy TT it is a huge disadvantage for the pad users.

To make a video about the problem and post it on YouTube would increase the chances that someone from Polyphony Digital would see it and corrects it..

The consensus going round is that they didn't fix it for the Time trial to hinder pad users. It would be problematic for pad users to get into the later rounds in their eyes. But for GT5P it was just experimental, and it seems to work well for standard physics (i can lap a 1'54 on Suzuka in some cars), just not for pro.

If their plan is to increase wheel sales it is working. I've been contemplating buying a wheel for nearly a year now. I probably will end up buying one for GT5 even if they do fix the problem.
 
The consensus going round is that they didn't fix it for the Time trial to hinder pad users. It would be problematic for pad users to get into the later rounds in their eyes. But for GT5P it was just experimental, and it seems to work well for standard physics (i can lap a 1'54 on Suzuka in some cars), just not for pro.

If their plan is to increase wheel sales it is working. I've been contemplating buying a wheel for nearly a year now. I probably will end up buying one for GT5 even if they do fix the problem.

An idea:

Would it be possible to setup a control like that:

Steering, Shifting, Other -> Pad
Throttle -> 1 Pedal
Brakes -> 1 Pedal

Uhhh... Ill try that....

Where can I get single Pedals?
 
Google cant find it.. lol

Only thing left is to ask Santa I suppose... :dopey:

I think Sony may be a bit concerned that a bunch of pad users will make it into the top 20 in a country, as Sony perhaps question whether someone who's good with a pad will be able to drive a real car as quickly.

To be honest thought, to be as quick with a pad as a wheel user would take a very good understanding of what it takes to drive a car quickly, so I don't think it's reasonable to handicap the pad user by giving them a dodgy throttle input, and forcing the TC on to 7...
 
I dont think the reason they did this is for selling more wheels.

I think that a casual user doesnt even notice the problem.

BUT on such a high level competition as the Academy TT it is a huge disadvantage for the pad users.

To make a video about the problem and post it on YouTube would increase the chances that someone from Polyphony Digital would see it and corrects it..


a casual user that never before played a racing game vith a good trotle manegment on the contoler, and ppl who never played somthing else than gt games and gt demos on the ps3.
they wont notice, 99% will probably think that , then more it spins and slides then mote sim it is.. som may buy a casual wheal lol

if nobody's talking about that, nobody's noticing, everything's fine!! WHY bother fixing it???
it needs to bee sorted out!
..and i dont belive it will.
 
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Actually I got the impression that throttle modulation is a little improved in the demo, at least with the sticks. Still a pain though...
 
Actually I got the impression that throttle modulation is a little improved in the demo, at least with the sticks. Still a pain though...

I'm pretty sure the throttle is the exact same in the demo as was in Prologue!

Someone mentioned concern of pad users getting into later rounds? Well I'm 3rd place overall in my country. And the thought did cross my mind that my performance my be a nuisance to them; I got the feeling they would only expect wheel users to be in the top 20 (albeit not the most competitive country).

Anyone who's fast with a pad is fast with a wheel. I mean this is a pretty simple one. Think of it mathematically; all you're doing is moving points around different axes. Regardless of the input you're using, the brain is still processing the co-ordination and movement of these different axes (throttle/brakes, steering) based on the visual. Whether it's someone's thumb steering, or both of somebody's arms together, the brain treats it in a very similar way. The difference is pad users need to be more accurate, and have a lighter touch, and that wheel users need much more body movement.
 
i don't know why but i liked GT HD when it comes to L2 R2 sensitivity

the main question is,why you cant adjust your analog sensitivity ? (it is done in GT psp i think)
 
I'm pretty sure the throttle is the exact same in the demo as was in Prologue!

I disagree. I can control a high powered RWD car much better in Prologue than in the demo. Now, it could be that most of my RWD cars in the game have had suspension tweaks, so they tent to grip a little better.
 
I disagree. I can control a high powered RWD car much better in Prologue than in the demo. Now, it could be that most of my RWD cars in the game have had suspension tweaks, so they tent to grip a little better.

I believe it could be the improved (much much improved) steering in the demo. I can control these two cars better (more naturally) than any car in Prologue. But for me it's not because of the throttle - it's the steering.

I could boot up Prologue and check the throttle in depth....but not bothered!
 
I remain very dubious that PD &/or Sony would have a particular interest in promoting wheel use. I doubt they make that much from licensing fees for Logitech wheels - I would guess the profit from selling controllers would be much greater (although I understand that in most cases people would automatically own a PS controller).

It would seem to me that the ideal marketing scenario for PD/Sony would be to have wheel AND pad users competing together - it would demonstrate that GT5 is "realistic" (wheel-use) but accessible to the more casual gamer (pad-use), which would enhance sales of the software, which is where most of the profit comes.

If there is a problem with the controller calibration, I think most likely it's an oversight. It's not like there are no other problems with the GT series or other racing games out there!

BTW: as anyone checked to see if the Logitech pedals provide accurate "linear" input?
 
I was playing Prologue last night, drove a Z06 on S3 tires and it seemed ok to me.

I mean, I was talking about the throttle in particular - I'm pretty sure Prologue has the exact same throttle distribution as the GT5 demo, and that the improved steering means one can handle the result (oversteer) of the bad throttle. The proof would really be to analyse the throttle increments in Prologue, the way I did in a previous post. Need to find some motivation to do that.


UPDATE:
Okay, just for the laugh, I booted up Prologue. The throttle distribution is the exact same as in the new Demo. So in that crucial 75-100% throttle zone, there are only 6 increments.
 
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With a very steady hand, very slowly increasing the throttle, and sitting right in front of the screen!

Also, using the bumper cam, as this give a longer throttle bar than in some of the other views (so longer throttle bar = easier to see increments)
 
I noticed this too, I thought it was the pad at first, but I swapped throttle and brake controls around the non-linearity stayed with the throttle. I'd love to know why it is like this.

The demo seems really fun, but why go to all the trouble with the physics and analogue sticks and then mess with how the sticks connect into the game?
 
I felt comfortable with the controller in Prologue but in this demo with the new (and improved) physics its a lot harder. Its fine with a wheel but why release a game on a console if its only good with a wheel so they need to tweak it for controllers before release. Perhaps because its for the Academy they set the car up for wheel users to get the best driver with simulation inputs but it is advertised as a demo for the finished product.
 
I mean, I was talking about the throttle in particular - I'm pretty sure Prologue has the exact same throttle distribution as the GT5 demo, and that the improved steering means one can handle the result (oversteer) of the bad throttle. The proof would really be to analyse the throttle increments in Prologue, the way I did in a previous post. Need to find some motivation to do that.


UPDATE:
Okay, just for the laugh, I booted up Prologue. The throttle distribution is the exact same as in the new Demo. So in that crucial 75-100% throttle zone, there are only 6 increments.
As one that logged a fair amount of hours with Prologue (using a DS3), believe me, throttle distribution was the first thing I checked in this new demo and I have to agree with your conclusion. I was very disappointed that they didn't fix something that wasn't even a big issue for me in GT4. For a game that prides itself in its attention to detail, I can't imagine why something crucial like this was overlooked especially since the mapping for the braking isn't an issue for me.

The only way I've been able to overcome this is to "pump the gas" by alternating between half and full throttle with the stick to carry speed through the corner. It feels quite crude but I've found at least half a second improvement in my times doing it this way.
 
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Yeah. Well an example of the difficulty:

Take left-hand hairpin near the end of the lap. When coming out of that corner, there's a sweet spot on the throttle needed to get the most out of the racing line - around 80% throttle (increasing to max). But it's just far too difficult with six-axis. You hit maybe 60% throttle. Squeeze a bit more, 65, up to 70, squeeze bit more, and then suddenly, bang, jumps up to 90%+ throttle, or even max, wheelspin occurs, lap ruined.

It's the EXACT same with my DS3, FYI.
And it sucks the big ones. I believe it's whats keeping me out of the top 20 right now, depending on how well others improved from it (being fixed) also.
 
As with this demo they're looking for drivers for the Nissan GT Academy program, I think they've done this on purpose in order to try bringing to the higher ladder positions people who have some experience with proper wheel/throttle control rather than Sixaxis'.
 
As with this demo they're looking for drivers for the Nissan GT Academy program, I think they've done this on purpose in order to try bringing to the higher ladder positions people who have some experience with proper wheel/throttle control rather than Sixaxis'.

It's got nothing to do with looking for people more used to anything, imo.
I believe it has everything to do with wheel sales - as I'm sure anyone with a wheel other than the DFGT will have to make adjustments also.
 
Merry Christmas !

Can anyone confirm that the Driving Force GT has a linear throttle distribution ?

And how about the G25 ? Also ?

regards
 
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