Alonso title could devalue F1, says Mosley (Championship spoilers within)

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Radracing

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Alonso title could devalue F1, says Mosley
Fri, 29 Oct 00:21:00 2010

Ferrari's Fernando Alonso will devalue the Formula One championship if he wins it by less than seven points, the governing body's former president Max Mosley said on Thursday.
Spaniard Alonso, who leads Red Bull's Mark Webber by 11 points with two races remaining, won controversially in Germany in July after Ferrari ordered Brazilian team mate Felipe Massa to let him pass while leading.
Ferrari were subsequently fined $100,000 for the use of banned 'team orders' but suffered no loss of points.
"I did feel at the very least that the extra points that Alonso got by overtaking Massa under team orders should have been taken away," Mosley told BBC radio.
"That's the absolute minimum, because if by any chance Alonso were to win the championship with a margin less than the seven points that he picked up, I would say illegitimately in Hockenheim, it would devalue the championship.
"But that's just a personal view."
The Briton also poured cold water on speculation that he was considering a comeback.
"I think my Formula One days are finished and I've moved on to other things now," he said. "Obviously I'm watching it with interest but one should never go back."

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/28102010/2/alonso-title-devalue-f1-says-mosley.html
 
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I would say a lot of championships have been won based on team orders.

Why should we care about it now all of a sudden?

Hey lets not even have teams, lets just be an individual sport.
 
He just wants to come back and by making statements like this one he is stirring things up. The man in charge now is Todt and he is someone that actually has had experience in the matter of team orders and I feel he made the right decision on the case. All f1 fans know that team orders happen. The FIA making them illegal is like mcdonalds telling it's customers thats it's food does not make you overweight. If anything they are liars and the fans have a right to know how the sport really works instead of sugarcoating everything to make it seem nice. I have said this before and I will say it again. If it was Massa leading the championship at that point, fernando would have been the one to move over. You want proof, look at the 2008 season. Also this year's Australian GP. Massa was ahead of a quicker alonso but ferrari did not say anything about letting him through and the spaniard finished behind the brazilian that race.
 
The FIA making them illegal is like mcdonalds telling it's customers thats it's food does not make you overweight.

Woah...woah...it's the customers that are making themselves fat. It's not McDonald's fault that nobody cares about the nutrition info or they don't burn the calories that they eat.
 
Woah...woah...it's the customers that are making themselves fat. It's not McDonald's fault that nobody cares about the nutrition info or they don't burn the calories that they eat.

HAHAHAH.....You may be right on that but I used to work in a mcdonalds. All they tell you is how many calories the food has in it but not what kind they are. There are many different types of fats in foods. Some are good for the body to ingest because they are complex and it takes enzymes longer to break them down. Some are just glucose which is like eating sugar. You know what this is a car forum not health. I am just going to put it this way. Mcdonalds does not give enough information to it's consumers about what is really in the food because if they did know, they would be out of business.
 
So where does it end Mr. Mosely? Maybe if Alonso loses the title by only a point or two I'll claim it was the stewards who devalued F1 for some of their questionable and crucial decisions :lol: Or maybe I'll blame a lot of the teams for breaking the "spirit of the rules" with some of their designs. Maybe you and the FIA should have thought things over a bit more thoroughly when you made team orders illegal (and at least put a proper penalty system in place instead of whining about things once a team happened to break this rule - which has basically been the WDC decider in the last 2 out of 3 Championships :rolleyes:).
 
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Who says Mosley can't speak sense?

Actually, there's the suggestion that Ferrari used team orders in Korea, supposedly pitting Massa in a way that he emerged from the pits to hold everyone up to negate the effects of Alonso's botched stop. If it's true, it's pretty damn serious; in Germany, Ferrari manipulated the results of their own cars, but here they've supposedly affect everyone else's race.
 
Who says Mosley can't speak sense?

Actually, there's the suggestion that Ferrari used team orders in Korea, supposedly pitting Massa in a way that he emerged from the pits to hold everyone up to negate the effects of Alonso's botched stop. If it's true, it's pretty damn serious; in Germany, Ferrari manipulated the results of their own cars, but here they've supposedly affect everyone else's race.

That theory (you are probably the creator of it) is absolutely laughable for a number of reasons. Most importantly, Massa pitted before Alonso so how in the hell could the team predict Alonso's wheel nut issue? :lol: Also, even with the botched stop for Alonso, regardless of what Felipe did, Alonso still would have come out just behind Hamilton - no worse, no better (Schumacher was not a threat one bit as far back as he was).

Also, this is part of the game regardless if you like it or not, I know every little thing Ferrari does bugs you to no end, but give it a break man! Of course you didn't have an issue when Button was holding up the RB's @ Suzuka. You're so secretively biased it's beyond belief at times.
 
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(you are probably the creator of it)
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22731.html

Your move, sir.

PS: I seem to have mis-transferred the article over here since I read it yesterday. Makes more sense when you post about it after you read it. The gist is that Ferrari used Massa to back up the back on-track so that Alonso emerged ahead of him.

Of course you didn't have an issue when Button was holding up the RB's @ Suzuka. You're so secretively biased it's beyond belief at times.
You may have noticed that I don't often post after races. This is generally because I get a delayed telecast, and so by the time the race is over, it's past midnight local time. I might make a post or two expressing my thoughts immedaitely after the race, but I usually go straight to bed afterwards because I have compulsory classes from nine in the morning until one in the afternoon on Mondays, and I kind of need to be on my toes for that. By the time I get around to having enough time to post online, the conversation has blown out to twenty pages and I can't be bothered sifting back through them to find the origin of the current conversations. And it's only going to get worse next year because I'll have even less time on my hands (and may even be forced to miss races).
 
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Yet you always find the time to take a stab at Ferrari (and disregard other teams "wrong doings") whenever you get the chance...

Edit: Didn't see this post (don't know why you bothered double posting)

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22731.html

Your move, sir.

PS: I seem to have mis-transferred the article over here since I read it yesterday. Makes more sense when you post about it after you read it. The gist is that Ferrari used Massa to back up the back on-track so that Alonso emerged ahead of him.

First of all the article and claims are a joke to begin with (if you go back and watch the replay footage like I did, with a UNBIASED opinion), which is why I thought it was something you made up (can't believe the guy actually took the time to publish such rubbish).

Mark Hughes has absolutely no info regarding Felipe's lap delta info (nor radio communications), so he hasn't a leg to stand on. The most telling part is that Felipe was nowhere in sight when Alonso left his pit stall - realistically Ferrari did not have enough time to radio in to Felipe to tell him to slow down at that point, nor did they have reason to, not to mention Felipe was going at a pretty damn good clip down the mainstraight (when he would have recieved a radio message) when Alonso re-entered the track. Basically there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever to support this theory - just a case of another Ferrari basher clutching for straws and jumping the gun.

If you want to further the discussion on this theory, maybe I will take the time to post the exact footage from the pit sequence (which says it all).
 
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Edit: Didn't see this post (don't know why you bothered double posting)
I rarely do it and I'm used to double posts being merged into a single on another forum.

(if you go back and watch the replay footage like I did, with a UNBIASED opinion)
With that attitude, I have no interest in anything you have to say.

The most telling part is that Felipe was nowhere in sight when Alonso left his pit stall - realistically Ferrari did not have enough time to radio in to Felipe to tell him to slow down to have any purposeful affect (at the earliest he would have recieved a message as soon as he entered the main straight)
You're missing the point. The suggestion is that Ferrari radioed Massa as soon as Alonso's stop went bad, so of course he wouldn't be in sight - he was slowing down! With the track being so slippery and Alonso's tyres being so green, there was a distinct possibility that Alonso could slide off. He didn't, but there was still the possibility. And if he did, the rest of the field could have passed him with ease.
 
like I did, with a UNBIASED opinion

Are you sure? :odd:

You and Interludes should have a thread dedicated just for your "discussions", it makes for entertaining reading. Can get me a few laughs whenever I'm bored.

PS: I'm not agreeing with interludes on the Massa pitting article, just find it funny you find yourself unbiased.
 
I rarely do it and I'm used to double posts being merged into a single on another forum..

Actually, I see you do it quite often. Although in most cases it's justified though, as you're posting new info (or whatever it might be) several days after.

With that attitude, I have no interest in anything you have to say..

Ah of course. Don't worry though, being the stand up guy you are, you will once again conveniently find the back door (as you always do) once you are proven wrong.

You're missing the point. The suggestion is that Ferrari radioed Massa as soon as Alonso's stop went bad, so of course he wouldn't be in sight - he was slowing down! With the track being so slippery and Alonso's tyres being so green, there was a distinct possibility that Alonso could slide off. He didn't, but there was still the possibility. And if he did, the rest of the field could have passed him with ease.

I clearly understand the point you're trying to make - the only problem is, it's just not realistic one bit (especially given the time frame from when Massa would have realistically recieved a message, to when he comes flying into the last corner entering the main straight). At the very most this small time frame would mean that he would have only slowed down for only 2-3 seconds, which wouldn't have had ANY affect on Alonso). Worst of all, there is no evidence whatsoever to back the articles bold claims up.

Regarding Alonso sliding off track after his pit stop - They were under full course caution (no passing allowed) for christ sakes, why would Ferrari or Alonso be that worried about such?

Are you sure? :odd:

PS: I'm not agreeing with interludes on the Massa pitting article, just find it funny you find yourself unbiased
.

Please tell me how I'm biased on this topic, I'd love to hear why :lol: It's easy to assume things just because I'm a Ferrari fan and admittedly may be biased on other subject matter.
 
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Please tell me how I'm biased on this topic, I'd love to hear why :lol: It's to assume things just because I'm a Ferrari fan.

You're biased because you're the first to stand up and defend Ferrari/Alonso in any topic. You also take much offence to when someone so much as accuses them of wrong doing and is first to tell them how wrong they are even though it is just a web forum...

Now I'm not saying no one else here is biased (couldn't be further from the truth) BUT, to say you watched the replay "with an unbiased opinion" is just not true. You enjoy watching F1 more when Ferrari is winning, do you not?
 
You're biased because you're the first to stand up and defend Ferrari/Alonso in any topic. You also take much offence to when someone so much as accuses them of wrong doing and is first to tell them how wrong they are even though it is just a web forum...

Now I'm not saying no one else here is biased (couldn't be further from the truth) BUT, to say you watched the replay "with an unbiased opinion" is just not true. You enjoy watching F1 more when Ferrari is winning, do you not?

Sorry to say but you're running off at the mouth with your out of the blue reasoning. What does me enjoying Ferrari winning have to do with anything, and more importantly having a unbiased opinion when it comes to such things, like the theory brought up by ludes? (which is not realistic, nor has sufficient evidence to due anything other than create useless discussion/controversy)

Just because I'm the first to stand up for Ferrari and Alonso makes me biased to all cases of judgement all of sudden? :lol: I'm just standing up for what makes sense, regardless of what team or drivers was in this particular scenario - you are the one labelling me as biased when it comes to judging the theory ludes brought up, simply because I'm a fan of Ferrari/Alonso - which I find quite amusing and feeble minded really.

The reason you find me often defending Ferrari is because I can't stand the people (MarkWebber & Interludes of late) who act as though Ferrari are the only ones guilty of any crime and go out of there way to constantly (to the point of sounding like a broken record) remind people that they are "dirty cheats" when they are succesful, despite the fact that other teams quite clearly cheat all the time or have been guilty of the very same thing just a a few races ago (Mclaren in particular - they get no flak around here of course). I'm simply standing up for fairness (in ridicule), that's all :indiff:
 
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Sorry to say but you're running off at the mouth with your out of the blue reasoning. What does me enjoying Ferrari winning have to do with anything, and more importantly having a unbiased opinion when it comes to such things, like the theory (which is not realistic, nor has sufficient evidence) brought up by ludes? Just because I'm the first to stand up for Ferrari and Alonso makes me biased to all cases of judgement all of sudden? :lol: I'm just standing up for what makes sense, regardless of what team or drivers was in this particular scenario -you are the one labelling me as biased when it comes to judging the theory ludes brought up, simply because I'm a fan of Ferrari/Alonso - which I find quite amusing and feeble minded really.The reason you find me often defending Ferrari is because I can't stand the people (MarkWebber & Interludes of late) who act as though Ferrari are the only ones guilty of any crime and go out of there way to constantly (to the point of sounding like a broken record) remind people that they are "dirty cheats" when they are succesful, despite the fact that other teams quite clearly cheat all the time or have been guilty of the very same thing just a a few races ago (Mclaren in particular - they get no flak around here of course). I'm simply standing up for fairness (in ridicule), that's all :indiff:

Personal attacks on members will not be tolerated here at GT Planet.

No one has a problem with you arguing a point, however its the point/opinion/statement you attack, not the person making it.

In attacking the person you both devalue your own position and break the AUP.

This topic is by its very nature one that is likely to cause heated debate, we do not need that to be made worse with personal attacks by anyone.

Do this again (and this applies to everyone) and it will result in an infraction being issued.


Scaff
 
Where do you draw the line though? I could say that calling me "biased" (when there is no proof of such, regarding the particular topic at hand) is a personal attack at my sanity and judgement (which is actually how I felt - thus why I responded in the way I did) :lol:
 
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Where do you draw the line though? I could say that calling me "biased" (when there is no proof of such, regarding the particular topic at hand) is a personal attack at my sanity and judgement (which is actually how I felt - thus why I responded in the way I did) :lol:


Its starts and ends at the point the staff say it does, and as such we generally find treating warnings in regard to the AUP as funny and would strongly suggest that you take my post and suggestion a little more seriously.

In regard to accusations of bias, well that is a door that you opened yourself, with a claim that you were unbiased and a strong suggestion that another member can't post without an anti-Ferrari stance (i.e. bias).

If you can't see the difference between a discussion on bias (that you initiated) and calling someone feeble-minded, then I would recommend that you both re-read the AUP and consider your own posting style before you next contribute to the discussion at hand.

The defense of 'he did it first' is also not one that we take notice of at all, if you feel someone has broken the AUP then you use the report button, what you don't do is reply in kind. Simply breaking the AUP in defense does not grant you some kind of free pass, particularly as you opened the discussion on bias in the first place.

The public warning was a reminder to all in this topic of the AUP and how it applies, if you wish to make further light of that and/or dispute its validity I can make that warning a little more tailored.


Scaff
 
Sorry to say but you're running off at the mouth with your out of the blue reasoning. What does me enjoying Ferrari winning have to do with anything, and more importantly having a unbiased opinion when it comes to such things, like the theory (which is not realistic, nor has sufficient evidence) brought up by ludes? Just because I'm the first to stand up for Ferrari and Alonso makes me biased to all cases of judgement all of sudden? :lol: I'm just standing up for what makes sense, regardless of what team or drivers was in this particular scenario - you are the one labelling me as biased when it comes to judging the theory ludes brought up, simply because I'm a fan of Ferrari/Alonso - which I find quite amusing and feeble minded really.

The reason you find me often defending Ferrari is because I can't stand the people (MarkWebber & Interludes of late) who act as though Ferrari are the only ones guilty of any crime and go out of there way to constantly (to the point of sounding like a broken record) remind people that they are "dirty cheats" when they are succesful, despite the fact that other teams quite clearly cheat all the time or have been guilty of the very same thing just a a few races ago (Mclaren in particular - they get no flak around here of course). I'm simply standing up for fairness (in ridicule), that's all :indiff:

Again, I'm not stating that your opinion on this matter is biased , I'm saying that the fact you stated you watch races with an unbiased opinion is ridiculous. Ofcorse you are watching with bias, You are not only watching Formula 1 for the spectacle you are watching it also to watch your team succeed.

And I'm also not saying you're the only biased person on this forum.

Again, to clarify.. I'm not targetting your opinion of this topic, but rather your statement "(if you go back and watch the replay footage like I did, with a UNBIASED opinion)"
 
Again, I'm not stating that your opinion on this matter is biased , I'm saying that the fact you stated you watch races with an unbiased opinion is ridiculous. Ofcorse you are watching with bias, You are not only watching Formula 1 for the spectacle you are watching it also to watch your team succeed.

And I'm also not saying you're the only biased person on this forum.

Again, to clarify.. I'm not targetting your opinion of this topic, but rather your statement "(if you go back and watch the replay footage like I did, with a UNBIASED opinion)"

The problem is, you're completely misinterperating my words and more importantly coming to your own conclusion. The bottom line is that just because I watch the race to see a outcome in my favor, does not at all mean I can't watch the race and see things in even light (without a biased judgement/perspective) - like my statement was meant to indicate. This is the part which I don't think you are taking into account.

Of course when you're biased like some folks, you tend to jump on the camels (Ferrari especially) back at any chance you get (in particular the writer of that article).
 
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Hmm,
-Mosley created Team Orders ban rule
-Mosley is no longer FIA President
-Mosley has no relevance to anything anymore

Yup, I can easily ignore this twit. His opinion is somewhat devalued by all the two-faced talking and actions of the past 15+ years.

Who says Mosley can't speak sense?

Mosley can talk sense but he can also talk rubbish. He's quite a good wordsmith, if you just take his latest ramblings at face value, then yes, he makes sense. But if you take his words after hearing stuff he has said before...you can't really take him seriously anymore.

Once again, Mosley is talking the popular talk. Its popular to have this ideal that F1 can be "pure" without team orders. It ignores the history of F1 and the fact that running teams of two drivers fighting for one championship is always going to create "team orders" situations.

People can choose to dislike it and not treat Alonso as such a great driver or whatever but its all opinion. At the end of the day, Alonso is no lesser champion than any other champion (in this respect at least). Almost all of whom utilised team orders at one stage or other.
 
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Who says Mosley can't speak sense?

Actually, there's the suggestion that Ferrari used team orders in Korea, supposedly pitting Massa in a way that he emerged from the pits to hold everyone up to negate the effects of Alonso's botched stop. If it's true, it's pretty damn serious; in Germany, Ferrari manipulated the results of their own cars, but here they've supposedly affect everyone else's race.

:crazy: Call me crazy but isn't that the reason why race teams have multiple cars racing to cover the teamate that is in the lead? :dopey: If you haven't figure that out by now there is something wrong with your concept of what a team sport is. It applies to all team sport, come on man. :rolleyes: It doesen't have to come as a team order it's part of their job description.
 
So what does Mr. Mosley say if Alonso wins by 7+ points?(which I hope happens just to shut people up)

If anything is going to devalue F1 it will be the quality of the racing.
 
I would say a lot of championships have been won based on team orders.

Why should we care about it now all of a sudden?

Hey lets not even have teams, lets just be an individual sport.

that's the problem. If you want an individual sport like I do then that's why if Alonso did win that way, it would be because of his team, not him. If Alonso needed to ask his team for Massa to slow down, how would he have passed him in the first place? that's the problem with it, Alonso only asked for help because he's a crappy human douche
 
So what does Mr. Mosley say if Alonso wins by 7+ points?(which I hope happens just to shut people up)

If anything is going to devalue F1 it will be the quality of the racing.

Surely then - it wouldn't've mattered?

(And Ferrarri could've saved themselves 100k!)

C.
 
So what does Mr. Mosley say if Alonso wins by 7+ points?(which I hope happens just to shut people up)
I hope it happens, too. Ideally, Webber or Vettel would win the title, making this unnecessary. If Alonso wins by more than seven points, it's acceptable - but it doesn't forgive team orders.

If anything is going to devalue F1 it will be the quality of the racing.
What happened in Germany wasn't racing. The FIA erred in not penalising Ferrari - if Alonso wins because of the team orders row, Ferrari will have effectively bought a World Championship, and for just $100,000. The FIA really should have stripped Alonso of the seven extra points he earned.
 
Damn broken records I tell you :lol:
Yes, both of you! :crazy:

Even though I still don't like what happened in Germany, I won't mind if Alonso wins the championship now - he's clearly proven he can win races without the help of his teammate. Naturally though, I'll be cheering for Webber until the end! ;)
 

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