Alonso title could devalue F1, says Mosley (Championship spoilers within)

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If Alonso wins by less than 7 points or more than 7 points I won't particularly like it, but it's more to do with the fact he's a moaning knob than it is because of team orders.

The team orders thing was a bit naughty (and properly stupid too, given how blatant it is that team orders that change the outcome of the race are rather obviously against the rules) and Ferrari/Alonso probably should have been docked points for it, but despite this Alonso is leading the championship because he's had the best results, and that's what it's all about at the end of the day.

I don't like Alonso but if he's winning it's because he's doing a better job than the others. I'd like to see Webber win it but to do so he'll have to pull in the results that he was getting earlier in the season.
 
But is it really "the best results" or "doing a better job than everyone else" when the team orders Massa to move over for him? The World Champion is the best driver in the world. Any driver who cannot pass his team-mate without the intervention off his team is clearly not the best, and therefore undeserving.
 
But is it really "the best results" or "doing a better job than everyone else" when the team orders Massa to move over for him? The World Champion is the best driver in the world. Any driver who cannot pass his team-mate without the intervention off his team is clearly not the best, and therefore undeserving.

The best driver with the best team is the one that wins the Championship. Its not just about being the best driver, it never has been.
 
The best driver with the best team is the one that wins the Championship. Its not just about being the best driver, it never has been.
A team that needs to swap its drivers around to favour its "best" driver is clearly not the best team.
 
A team that needs to swap its drivers around to favour its "best" driver is clearly not the best team.
But surely that's more down to the current rules and lack of overtaking than which one of them is the best driver. How are you supposed to overtake someone who is in exactly the same car as you? Especially as rule no1 in F1 is "don't take out your team mate."

Formula 1 is a team sport and that rule should never have been put there in the first place. As you know, Ferrari abused it in Austria and switched Schumacher and Barrichello round when they didn't need to. IIRC Schumacher already had a lead and it was early in the championship, so was completely unnecessary. The ban on team orders was issued because of this.

Team orders, like what Ferrari did in Germany, are completely acceptable to me when they are used properly. Proper usage is to maximise one driver's championship chances when the other doesn't have a chance of the championship. Massa has never been in the championship race this year so this, to me, was acceptable team orders used properly.
 
Sure it is, its a sound tactical decision, Massa has clearly never been in the title fight all year, so it was the correct way to go.
Red Bull and McLaren simply didn't have the same luxury as it has never been clear all year which driver would be on top (although Button was a little predictable, he was more "in it" than Massa ever was).

If Massa leads Alonso for half of 2011 and they decide to force him to let Alonso past for a win, then its a bad decision. (such as Onslow-Cole in BTCC).
 
This whole issue is FIAs fault not Ferrari or Alonso's. If you are going to have a "no team orders" rule (whether you agree with that or not) then it is up to the FIA to enforce it properly, something which they have failed to do on a huge scale! Ferrari, and all F1 teams in history, will of course push the rules to breaking point. To succeed and be one of "the greats" in motorsport IMO you need a certain amount of arrogance and too much self belief!
 
But surely that's more down to the current rules and lack of overtaking than which one of them is the best driver. How are you supposed to overtake someone who is in exactly the same car as you? Especially as rule no1 in F1 is "don't take out your team mate."
Apply pressure. If a World Champion is made up of the best driver in the best team, then the best driver part implies that he is better than everyone else in the field. And if he is indeed the best driver, then he should be able to a) find a way past his team mate, even if they are in identical cars or b) win the championship without the team issuing orders.
 
If a World Champion is made up of the best driver in the best team,
But is not always.

This season is going the same was as '86 so far. A dominant team (Red Bull and Williams) having both drivers going for the title and taking points of one another, and another, arguably better, driver in a lesser team (Alonso and Prost) sneaks in to win it.

At some point, even the best driver, is going to find himself behind his team mate at one point or other, and I would expect that team mate to move over if the other guy was going for the championship he not.
 
Alonso > Massa.

They might as well replace Massa with Petrov for all I care.



+ Mosley's probably after some attention.
 
At some point, even the best driver, is going to find himself behind his team mate at one point or other, and I would expect that team mate to move over if the other guy was going for the championship he not.
And normally I would have no issue with that - largely because it happens at the end of the season, not the mid-point. Massa was still in with a chance; for all we know, he could have been buoyed by his victory on the anniversary of his accident and had a stunning return to form because of it. I don't see why his championship bid should have suffered for the sake of Alonso's when Alonso didn't really need those seven points.
 
But surely that's more down to the current rules and lack of overtaking than which one of them is the best driver. How are you supposed to overtake someone who is in exactly the same car as you? Especially as rule no1 in F1 is "don't take out your team mate.".

Especially when you've already had a risky incident between your two drivers entering the pitlane, had contact between the two drivers at Silverstone which sent one to the pitlane, and had the weaker teammate hold up your stronger driver pace wise in several races before Hockenheim - to me, Ferrari played it smart after learning there lesson earlier in the season, by avoding any further mischief like RB got themselves into (which might cost them the WDC & WCC regardless of Ferrari using team orders @ Hockenheim).

Formula 1 is a team sport and that rule should never have been put there in the first place. As you know, Ferrari abused it in Austria and switched Schumacher and Barrichello round when they didn't need to. IIRC Schumacher already had a lead and it was early in the championship, so was completely unnecessary. The ban on team orders was issued because of this.

Team orders, like what Ferrari did in Germany, are completely acceptable to me when they are used properly. Proper usage is to maximise one driver's championship chances when the other doesn't have a chance of the championship. Massa has never been in the championship race this year so this, to me, was acceptable team orders used properly.

I agree. All those but the most stubborn have seen Alonso as the only driver within Ferrari having a fighting chance at the title this year.

Sure it is, its a sound tactical decision, Massa has clearly never been in the title fight all year, so it was the correct way to go.
Red Bull and McLaren simply didn't have the same luxury as it has never been clear all year which driver would be on top (although Button was a little predictable, he was more "in it" than Massa ever was).

If Massa leads Alonso for half of 2011 and they decide to force him to let Alonso past for a win, then its a bad decision. (such as Onslow-Cole in BTCC).

+1

And normally I would have no issue with that - largely because it happens at the end of the season, not the mid-point. Massa was still in with a chance; for all we know, he could have been buoyed by his victory on the anniversary of his accident and had a stunning return to form because of it. I don't see why his championship bid should have suffered for the sake of Alonso's when Alonso didn't really need those seven points.

It's been clear Massa hasn't had a realistic chance at the WDC (even Alonso has gotten a bit lucky of late to get back into contention) from just a few races into the season - only the people who are stubborn don't see this for what it is. Also, who are you to say that Alonso didn't really need those seven points? If he wins the WDC by less than that margin then clearly he did.
 
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Apply pressure. If a World Champion is made up of the best driver in the best team, then the best driver part implies that he is better than everyone else in the field. And if he is indeed the best driver, then he should be able to a) find a way past his team mate, even if they are in identical cars or b) win the championship without the team issuing orders.

Well he (Alonso) did find a way, by saying over the radio to his team "Come on guys this is ridiculous!" It didn't have to go over the radio because I am sure it is understood as a team you are suppose to do whats best for the team. But I'm sure Massa just wanted Alonso to work for it and Alonso felt he didn't need to prove anything by risking contact and ruining his chances for a win. So it wasn't only the easy way to go about it but the smartest way. Minimized risk. :sly: I'm sure a lot won't agree because its not the most noble way of winning but hell youre not Alonso and he is not running to be a nobleman but running to be World Champion. Let's leave that for the queen to decide. :)
 
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I'm sure a lot won't agree because its not the most noble way of winning but hell youre not Alonso and he is not running to be a nobleman but running to be World Champion. Let's leave that for the queen to decide. :)

Yeah but if people don't respect that driver as a world champion then what is the point of being one? It kind of undermines the achievement when there is conspiracy regarding the circumstances in which he would win it. Personally I don't mind what Ferrari did, but they could have done it more subtly. I think Massa made it so obvious because he didn't want to do as he was told.
 
Yeah but if people don't respect that driver as a world champion then what is the point of being one? It kind of undermines the achievement when there is conspiracy regarding the circumstances in which he would win it. Personally I don't mind what Ferrari did, but they could have done it more subtly. I think Massa made it so obvious because he didn't want to do as he was told.

Let me think......"$$$$$$" :sly: and lots and lots of it. I'm sure they will still love him back home and if Massa just did his job and not make it so obvious his own country men would still love him. But I'm sure that too will pass.
 
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Yeah but if people don't respect that driver as a world champion then what is the point of being one? It kind of undermines the achievement when there is conspiracy regarding the circumstances in which he would win it.

Personally I feel there are a lot of circumstances that quite often undermine the achievement (ie. one driver having the better car) of being the World Driver Champion (the one who should be the best driver period...)

As Ardius said:

The best driver with the best team is the one that wins the Championship. Its not just about being the best driver, it never has been.

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Personally I don't mind what Ferrari did, but they could have done it more subtly. I think Massa made it so obvious because he didn't want to do as he was told.

Personally I don't get why Ferrari should have done things more subtly. For example, if you a rob a bank does it really matter if you do it with no one around vs for the whole public to see? At the end of the day you still committed the crime and personally I rather be aware of what happened then have it kept a secret. At least with what Ferrari did, if Alonso happens to win the title by 7 points or less people can take their sides on whether he deserves it or not based on the situation at Hockenheim - which Ferrari made clear as day for all to judge.

For me, regardless of what he wins it by I will feel that he deserved it being that he was only really helped by his teammate on one occasion (thus far), yet managed to stay on par with the RB's (an extremely dominant car pace wise) in a car which shouldn't have really had a fighting chance against them - to me, only true Champions are capable of doing such.
 
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We need to look at the facts,both Red Bull and McLaren allows their drivers to compete each other,in both cases Vettel vs Webber and Button vs Hamilton ,the problem with Ferrari is that they don't let the drivers compete each other,and we know that Felipe Massa can be a competitive driver,so what Ferrari does its play just for themselves,for the team and the points,and therefore they kill the sport.

I cant be argue that Ferrari play smart that is true,but kill the competence by selfish decisions is something very very disappointing for the F1,not applying the right disciplinary measurements at the time by the stewards make them just as guilty as Ferrari so there is the image of the FIA saying "we allow this".

Its not fair,and is not legal and in a personal opinion the scored points should be removed form Ferrari and Alonso,sadly this will not happen,but I'm giving my hopes that Alonso will not win this season,the most likely guy to win the championship will be among Vettel and Webber,McLaren is just too far away and Ferrari had some luck in past races.

F1 its a sport not a contest and the drivers are the real competitor on the track,so ethics regarding this sport should be taken in count for both drivers and teams,I have seen Button in heated(track)fights with Hamilton and the same situation with Vettel and Webber,they don't tell to one of the drivers to back down or give the position,unlike Ferrari who did issue this orders making it a dirty move,smart for dirty and following FIA rulebook Illegal,so since those points are not legal it makes an Alonso win +7 points a fake championship win,everything its not just ethics and strategy there are also ethics like any other sport, ethics that must be follow.
 
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Personally I don't get why Ferrari should have done things more subtly. For example, if you a rob a bank does it really matter if you do it with no one around vs for the whole public to see? At the end of the day you still committed the crime and personally I rather be aware of what happened then have it kept a secret. At least with what Ferrari did, if Alonso happens to win the title by 7 points or less people can take their sides on whether he deserves it or not based on the situation at Hockenheim - which Ferrari made clear as day for all to judge.

It's not so much for the more hardcore fans like us because we all know well enough that team orders happen no matter what. But to a more casual fan it could quite easily give the sport a bad name, it's like match fixing in football to them.
 
I feel that the problem isn't the fact that Alonso will de-value F1, I think it is the fact that the punishment was not suitable for the nature in which the rule was broken.

If Alonso wins the title he will have deserved it, certainly.

But then the question of team orders will arise once more. They say it can not be policed, but when the FIA actually caught a team doing it red-handed they did not hand down a punishment that was suitable. The reasoning behind it was that other teams had done it in the past (Since the rule was created) and had gotten away with it. So if the race results are not going to change as a punishment, why have the rule in place in the first place?

I mean, Schumacher was penalised on a technicality at Monaco. He overtook Alonso under a green flag in direct contravention of the rules and he was punished for it.

But the difference at Hockenheim was that Ferrari ordered Massa out of the way. What was Alonso going to do, slow down and allow Massa to retain the lead? Of course not. Ferrari were the party in direct contravention of the rules, not Alonso. So it would have been unfair to punish Alonso. But under the race circumstances, the only parties affected by the team order was the two Ferrari drivers, so a punishment should have been handed down to those drivers. As Frank Williams has stated since, team orders should be allowed because at the end of the day, Drivers are employees of the team. So, the two Ferrari drivers are accountable for the team orders incident, so they should have been punished. Drivers have to be aware of the rules of the sport aswell and they have to agree to these rules in order to compete in the sport. A rule which not just the Ferrari team, but the two Ferrari drivers broke.

However, in these last two crucial races, Mclaren and Red Bull in particular may come across situations which will call for favouring one driver over the other in order to beat Alonso to the championship. The fact the team orders rule was not immediately scrapped after the Ferrari team order hearing could very well skew the 2010 results in Ferrari's favour, leading to a WDC victory for Alonso.

In the interest of fairness they should have scrapped the rule as soon as the decision was made to let the race results stand. That is what has discredited F1, a serious contravention of the rules that went unpunished and could have an effect on the drivers standings.

All things considered, I think Mosley is right.
 
It's not so much for the more hardcore fans like us because we all know well enough that team orders happen no matter what. But to a more casual fan it could quite easily give the sport a bad name, it's like match fixing in football to them.

I agree with that point, as for some it's not an attractive aspect of the sport, as they either do not understand or accept the team aspect/principle of the sport, and that the driver is nothing without the team and the car they are given. In my case I have no problem accepting team orders (as long as it's justified - not like when Barichello pulled over for Michael @ Austria) regardless of which team or driver benefits, but I do completely understand that if team orders were to happen on a regular basis (moreso than now), it would probably be quite detrimental to the long term health and image of the sport and make it look even more business like than it already is.

This is why the FIA needs to get off their lazy behinds and either do something to make it so teams do not benefit from using team orders (if you only had 1 driver per team this issue wouldn't exist), or simply abolish it and just quit trying to police such a stupid inconsistent loophole - because at the end of the day, it's naive to think that each and every team who spends billions of dollars to succeed is going to follow the spirit of the rules to the "T", whether it regards to on track strategy/decisions or in the design of their cars.


I feel that the problem isn't the fact that Alonso will de-value F1, I think it is the fact that the punishment was not suitable for the nature in which the rule was broken.

If Alonso wins the title he will have deserved it, certainly.

But then the question of team orders will arise once more. They say it can not be policed, but when the FIA actually caught a team doing it red-handed they did not hand down a punishment that was suitable. The reasoning behind it was that other teams had done it in the past (Since the rule was created) and had gotten away with it. So if the race results are not going to change as a punishment, why have the rule in place in the first place?

I mean, Schumacher was penalized on a technicality at Monaco. He overtook Alonso under a green flag in direct contravention of the rules and he was punished for it.

But the difference at Hockenheim was that Ferrari ordered Massa out of the way. What was Alonso going to do, slow down and allow Massa to retain the lead? Of course not. Ferrari were the party in direct contravention of the rules, not Alonso. So it would have been unfair to punish Alonso. But under the race circumstances, the only parties affected by the team order was the two Ferrari drivers, so a punishment should have been handed down to those drivers. As Frank Williams has stated since, team orders should be allowed because at the end of the day, Drivers are employees of the team. So, the two Ferrari drivers are accountable for the team orders incident, so they should have been punished. Drivers have to be aware of the rules of the sport aswell and they have to agree to these rules in order to compete in the sport. A rule which not just the Ferrari team, but the two Ferrari drivers broke.

However, in these last two crucial races, Mclaren and Red Bull in particular may come across situations which will call for favoring one driver over the other in order to beat Alonso to the championship. The fact the team orders rule was not immediately scrapped after the Ferrari team order hearing could very well skew the 2010 results in Ferrari's favor, leading to a WDC victory for Alonso.

In the interest of fairness they should have scrapped the rule as soon as the decision was made to let the race results stand. That is what has discredited F1, a serious contravention of the rules that went unpunished and could have an effect on the drivers standings.

All things considered, I think Mosley is right.

I agree, although from my understanding the WMSC didn't have quite enough evidence to convict Ferrari of "team orders", although in reality we all know what the "Alonso is quicker than you" message from the team really meant.

Also, I don't really agree that Ferrari should have gotten a harsher penalty, because in the end this wouldn't really accomplish anything (nor solve the root of the problem) other than being an inconsistant/unfair application of a rule and unwritten penalty, as the Champions from both 2007 and 2008 also won their titles due to team orders (although in what some would call a less blatant manner) and were never penalized for such, simply because the teams didn't make it so blatantly obvious or prosecutable - and IMO just because it was less obvious doesn't mean it's ok or inline with the spirt of the rules. For those who are true followers of the sport understand and accept that if Alonso were to win this year by 7 points or less his title would be no less tarnished than those from 07/08 as well as many others in the past.

It will also be interesting to see if RB and Mclaren implement team orders in the last two races. Up until now they have seemingly tried to protect their image as being top level sportsman (unlike Ferrari) - although IMO they have had some scenarios where either they have been a bit partial to one of their drivers (Vettel/Webber front wing controversy) or have told their drivers to back off to avoid incident (Mclaren @ Hungary), or they have put one driver on a questionable strategy to benefit the other (Mclaren @ Suzuka) which are all raised eye brow worthy if you really want to get technical about it.

As many know, there are always going to be team orders to some extent within the team, whether it be the base design/attributes of the car, who gets what part first, who gets the strongest engines, who runs what strategy in practice, etc ,etc - as David Coulthard has reiterated time and time again. So in the end you can't really universally draw a line for each and everyones opinions as to what is acceptable and what is not.
 
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Well he (Alonso) did find a way, by saying over the radio to his team "Come on guys this is ridiculous!" It didn't have to go over the radio because I am sure it is understood as a team you are suppose to do whats best for the team. But I'm sure Massa just wanted Alonso to work for it and Alonso felt he didn't need to prove anything by risking contact and ruining his chances for a win. So it wasn't only the easy way to go about it but the smartest way. Minimized risk. :sly: I'm sure a lot won't agree because its not the most noble way of winning but hell youre not Alonso and he is not running to be a nobleman but running to be World Champion. Let's leave that for the queen to decide. :)

I remember the day when a driver named Juan Manual Fangio was the most beloved and respected Grand Prix driver. He won 5 World Championships. His teammates would jump to get out of their cars and turn them over to Fangio if Il Maestro's car ran into any trouble.

About 100 years ago noblemen did drive the cars, but gradually they gave way to mechanics and professional drivers.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini
 
I'll just add that its a myth that Ferrari don't allow their drivers to compete. Sure they do, its just when it becomes clear one driver is weaker than the other, they tend to start backing the stronger more quickly than other teams. Would it be fair to say that Schumacher had shown he was a better driver than Rubens in the years previous to 2002? I think so.
I don't like Austria 2002 because I feel drivers should be allowed a chance at least but I can understand why Ferrari/Todt did it.
I didn't/don't like Hockenheim 2010 either but Massa really has been off form this season. He effectively lost his right to challenge for the WDC when he slowed Alonso up so much at Australia 2010. Massa wasn't really showing any signs of being faster than Alonso, and when he did, it was far too late (mid-season, quite a points gap).

Ferrari didn't favour Kimi or Felipe in particular seasons, allowing each to have a shot. Notice that they also alternated their T-cams/car numbers to reflect the one who had finished highest in the previous years' championship. If Massa won the first 3 races of 2011, Ferrari would probably use team orders on Alonso. The chances are quite low though as Alonso is that much faster. Should slower or less consistent drivers be allowed to win and race their faster teammates? A racing purist may think so but its quite short-sighted. At the end of the day, its the championship that matters most to the team, giving Mika Salo his first ever win was irrelevant in comparison to trying to securing Ferrari's first WDC in over a decade.

McLaren used team-orders on Kovalainen repeatedly. Red Bull were the centre of attention for team-orders mere months ago...
 
At the Japanese GP, Heidfeld let Kobayashi through at the hairpin on lap 49. Where is the furore about that?
 
There is no evidence that this was due to team orders though.
But can you prove that it wasn't?

There's why you can't have a "no team orders" rule in F1. You can't prove it either way. Normally. Ferrari were guilty of being stupid when all they needed to do was to tell Massa to go to "Engine map 7" or some other pre-determined code.
 
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22731.html

Your move, sir.

PS: I seem to have mis-transferred the article over here since I read it yesterday. Makes more sense when you post about it after you read it. The gist is that Ferrari used Massa to back up the back on-track so that Alonso emerged ahead of him..

I've found more evidence against Mark Hughes' rubbish theory (which IMO was just an attempt to make Ferrari look bad):

Source: F1fanatic

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/10/...a-held-up-schumacher-to-help-alonso-in-korea/

Mercedes deny Massa held up Schumacher to help Alonso in Korea

31 October 2010 by Keith Collantine

Mercedes have denied reports Michael Schumacher was held up by Felipe Massa during the Korean Grand Prix.

Claims were made following the race that Ferrari ordered Massa to delay other cars following Fernando Alonso’s pit stop.

The next car behind Massa was Schumacher, but a spokesperson for the team told F1 Fanatic it was “not true” that Massa had held Schumacher up.
Alonso lost almost three seconds during his pit stop compared to Sebastian Vettel who came in with him on lap 33.

Because of the delay Alonso lost one place to Lewis Hamilton and came out of the pits in front of Massa.

Hamilton, Massa and Schumacher had all pitted before Alonso on lap 32. Prior to that they had been 4.8, 10.5 and 13.8 seconds behind Alonso respectively (see here for the full data - http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/10/24/preserving-his-tyres-key-to-alonsos-victory-korean-grand-prix-analysis/).

Alonso had been at further risk of losing places because the safety car was deployed after he had passed the pits but early enough for Hamilton and his pursuers to pit right away.

Mercedes’ denial refutes speculation that Ferrari used team orders to benefit Alonso again as they did during the German Grand Prix.

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Mind commenting on this, interludes? Or would you rather ignore this and go on looking for articles to feed your anti-Ferrari sentimentism?
 
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Mind commenting on this, interludes?
No. Not when you're so blithely arrogant with your "I'm the only one who is in any position to comment with any certainty on anything because I'm the only one who doesn't have an agenda and you should thank me for it" attitude. Honestly, I couldn't care less for anything you say because I feel it has no redeeming value, however accurate you may be. I simply cannot overlook the contempt for other posters that has permeated every word which you write and thus have decided to ignore you. You come across as a know-it-all, who expects everyone to be thankful when you so rudely correct them on a regular basis. I may have my prejudices, but at least I try to treat everyone around here with respect. You, on the other hand, seem to have a pathological need for everyone to know just how clever you are, oblivious to the fact that that you look down your nose at everyone. Notice how my post count has backed right off over the last few days? It's largely because I don't want anything to do with you.

The irony in all of this is that in order to cling to the objectivity you so proudly boast about in an attempt to remain agenda-free is that you've abandoned your objectivity and developed embraced an ulterior motive. Until your attitude improves, I have nothing more to say to you.
 
Wow, I've see you've gone off on a tangent here. Sorting through your half filled assumptions as to my ulterior motives and phsycology...First of all, if you don't want to be "rudely" corrected (by me calling your article laughable) then you really shouldn't go out of your way (with your agenda to constantly put Ferrari down) by posting such rubbish articles claiming some nonsense theory (in which you supply NO evidence), which most importantly you've analyzed with a pair of foggy, scratched, and jaded glasses at best.

When your agenda is to continually go out of your way to prejudicially and unfairly put Ferrari in bad light (by bringing such articles to the table which you don't even take the time to analyze to determine their worth) don't be surprised when some get upset with your continual attempts to unfairly ridicule them, especially when you continue to slam Ferrari and turn a blind eye to other teams (Mclaren in particular) wrong doings of often very similar nature in the past (team orders in particular). You supply the bs and simply supply the facts to more importantly counteract your ridiculous agenda - and the reason I don't like or respect you is because whenever someone (regardless of how polite they are) supplies the facts to counteract your argument or point, you never acknowledge them, instead you slither your way out the back door - which to me shows a complete lack of respect to not only the argument, but also to the person you are having the discussion with. Do you do this in a face to face argument/discussion as well? (I sure hope not). I for one have no problem admitting when I'm wrong or guilty when someone supplies facts to counteract my side of the argument - I've done it the past and will likely have to do it in the future...it's just the honorable thing to do.

Others should appreciate that I bring evidence (which they have the choice of looking into themselves) to the table in order to prove the total invalidity and rubbish nature of the article you posted (as well as your other impartial judgments which you use to ridicule Ferrari), as in all honestly I would appreciate it if they did the same as well. And sorry if I bring a bit of attitude to the table at times, it's just hard for me not to when I see some of your posts and antics which have a clear and impartial negative agenda, which quite often utterly annoys the crap out of me - as it is easy for someone to spew such nonsense to the extreme you do when they are communicating from behind a computer screen from across the world.

Your turn.
 
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