Alonso title could devalue F1, says Mosley (Championship spoilers within)

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True or false? What do you think?


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Because Ferrari is in the right? Much as people don't want to admit it... legally, there is absolutely no physical evidence that they issued team orders.
But I'm talking about if there was physical evidence. If the FIA could undeniably prove that Ferrari had used team orders in Germany, Ferrari still would have taken legal action against them. They issued the threat weeks before the hearing, before there had been any investigation and before anyone had a chance to put a case together. They simply told the press that they would prosecute anyone who attempted to penalise them. They didn't say anything about innocence or guilt, they just tried to bully the FIA ino backing down.
 
^^^^^ Yup ,because you have a magic crystal ball at home and can predict what Ferrari would do. If you think that Ferrari would have done so, then...

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And it's only an opinion.
 
But I'm talking about if there was physical evidence. If the FIA could undeniably prove that Ferrari had used team orders in Germany, Ferrari still would have taken legal action against them.

I see what you've done

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And yes, my head is beggining to hurt.
 
^^^^^ Yup ,because you have a magic crystal ball at home and can predict what Ferrari would do. If you think that Ferrari would have done so, then...
No, what I have is a very clear memory of a news report that quoted Luca di Montezemolo saying Ferrari would launch legal action, no doubt inspired by Flavio Briatore taking the FIA to court.

I see what you've done

And yes, my head is beggining to hurt.
Weren't you going on a bender about how you were never going to comment about anything I said ever again, and that if you did, you'd be polite about it? Becaus I expressly recall you saying as much something like 48 hours ago. I'm impressed - you ignored your own pledge much faster than I expected you to. Which only just goes to prove what I've been saying all along: you're a hypocrite.

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You say your head is hurting? Well, I start getting a migraine every time I see your name as the most recent poster, because I know I'm entering a realm of hypocracy and condescendingly smug posts that usually contain nothing useful or true. You're like one of those "health food bars" that are 90% industrial sugar, 5% fat, 5% fat disguised as something else and 0% substance.
 
No, what I have is a very clear memory of a news report that quoted Luca di Montezemolo saying Ferrari would launch legal action, no doubt inspired by Flavio Briatore taking the FIA to court.

Will you put your crystal ball away, please? We don't need your assumptions brought to the table (one after another) in an attempt to justify your deep dislike and singling out of Ferrari...which to me simply seems like some type of insecurity you have IMHO.

Weren't you going on a bender about how you were never going to comment about anything I said ever again, and that if you did, you'd be polite about it? Becaus I expressly recall you saying as much something like 48 hours ago. I'm impressed - you ignored your own pledge much faster than I expected you to. Which only just goes to prove what I've been saying all along: you're a hypocrite..

Ah, more misinterpretation, or maybe just ignorance :rolleyes:

To remind you, this is what I said:

"Actually it would probably be better off without your misinforming, anti-Ferrari agenda filled, secretively biased, flame bate posting style.

I'm done with you. You are a complete PHONY in my book. From now on I avoid engaging in discussion with you. I might make a comment on your post (in a polite manner - yes I'm capable of doing so) but forget having a discussion with someone as delusioned as you."

I never said (you assume it was a pledge :lol:) I would avoid commenting on your post (because I figured I would have to eventually). I simply implied I would avoid engaging in a disccusion with you, but now I've managed to drag myself into another one. BTW, my previous post was well within the AUP - if you saw the ridiculousness in your post (where you try pass off your assumption as some well known fact) maybe you wouldn't get so defensive and upset toward me. But it's to be expected from you...

And how am I hypocrite? Please explain? I'm not the one going around trying to pass my assumptions off as some well known fact like you are. I may have a bit of an attitude at times, but at least I'm not one spreading/preaching misinformation like you, getting butthurt when someone tries to tell me my assumptions (that are used to back up an opinion) aren't factual.

[You say your head is hurting? Well, I start getting a migraine every time I see your name as the most recent poster, because I know I'm entering a realm of hypocracy and condescendingly smug posts that usually contain nothing useful or true. You're like one of those "health food bars" that are 90% industrial sugar, 5% fat, 5% fat disguised as something else and 0% substance.

Wow...a funny joke from you, for once :lol: Bravo!
 
But I'm talking about if there was physical evidence. If the FIA could undeniably prove that Ferrari had used team orders in Germany, Ferrari still would have taken legal action against them. They issued the threat weeks before the hearing, before there had been any investigation and before anyone had a chance to put a case together. They simply told the press that they would prosecute anyone who attempted to penalise them. They didn't say anything about innocence or guilt, they just tried to bully the FIA ino backing down.

In other words, you're talking about a hypothetical scenario where you apparently know what will happen and how Ferrari would think....right. So, your hypothetical scenario proves Ferrari's arrogance on the subject?
The rest is your opinion, what we see as Ferrari simply pointing out that the FIA have no legal ground to stand on, you see as "bullying". I would refer to it as "common sense". You're saying instead of pointing out the error of the FIA's ways, that Ferrari should take what they got?
 
But I'm talking about if there was physical evidence. If the FIA could undeniably prove that Ferrari had used team orders in Germany, Ferrari still would have taken legal action against them. They issued the threat weeks before the hearing, before there had been any investigation and before anyone had a chance to put a case together. They simply told the press that they would prosecute anyone who attempted to penalise them. They didn't say anything about innocence or guilt, they just tried to bully the FIA ino backing down.

Come on man, you're not God.
don't judge anything based on what's inside your head..
like you can predict something that was never happened
 
I won't judge A or B, if Alonso wins, I hope he can at least manage a eight point advantage over Webber, otherwise the title will be tagged forever among with that disgusting episode.
 
In other words, you're talking about a hypothetical scenario where you apparently know what will happen and how Ferrari would think....right. So, your hypothetical scenario proves Ferrari's arrogance on the subject?
How is it hypothetical? Ferrari said they'd do it. They said they would launch legal action against anyone who attempted to penalise them for their actions in Germany. There's nothing hypothetical about the situation, because it doesn't really matter whether or not they did it. The fact is, they made the threat, regardless of the outcome. That proves their arrogance to me - they were basically saying "Anyone who finds us guilty of doing something wrong will find themselves in court". Is that not arrogance to you? What would be your reaction if you read a news article about someone who allegedly stole something, and then threatened to take his accusers to court if he was found guilty of the crime and sent to prison?

Come on man, you're not God.
don't judge anything based on what's inside your head..
like you can predict something that was never happened
It's not inside my head. Ferrari actually said they'd do it. It was even reported in the media, with a direct quote. If I had a mind to include this in the Wikipedia article on the race (which I wouldn't have, because it didn't directly affect events), that article would be enough.
 
Hypothetical: This:

But I'm talking about if there was physical evidence. If the FIA could undeniably prove that Ferrari had used team orders in Germany, Ferrari still would have taken legal action against them. They issued the threat weeks before the hearing, before there had been any investigation and before anyone had a chance to put a case together. They simply told the press that they would prosecute anyone who attempted to penalise them. They didn't say anything about innocence or guilt, they just tried to bully the FIA ino backing down.

All hypotheticals, conjecture and opinion. Not fact. The only fact is the line in red.

You see it as a pre-emptive strike against a massive investigation. Which it may well be (note... may), but it's basically Ferrari saying the FIA haven't got a leg to stand on (and they're right) and if the FIA even try, they'll sue.
 
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but it's basically Ferrari saying the FIA haven't got a leg to stand on (and they're right) and if the FIA even try, they'll sue.
No, if it were Ferrari saying the FIA didn't "have a leg to stand on", they'd have protested innocence. They'd have said words to the effect of "We don't think we've done anything wrong, and if the FIA penalise us without any evidence or a fair hearing, then we feel it is a matter that should be taken to the courts" - not "If anybody tries to penalise us, we're going to take legal action". The wording of Luca's exact comments were aggressive and came across as an attempt to bully the FIA into ruling in Ferrari's favour or else risk a highly-public lawsuit.

And (now, this part is my opinion, and yes, slightly speculative, but I feel it necessary to point as much out because I know someone in general and The Outlaw in particular will only concentrate on this part of my post if I don't) considering that the FIA had recently had their authority undermined - hell, their entire ability to penalise someone for wrongdoing - by the French courts (was it the French? I'm sure it was the French ...) in the case of Flavio Briatore, it's easy to see why the FIA might be eager to make sure the matter went away quickly. Bearing in mind Ferrari's earlier behaviour where they berated the new teams for simply existing (and conveniently forgetting that there was a time not so long ago - the Capelli years - when they were backmakers, struggling to finish on a regular basis and scoring just 21 WCC points to Williams' 164), I interpreted Luca's comments as being an attempt to bully the FIA into ruling in Ferrari's favour. After all, the FIA felt certain they had an ironclad case against Briatore - with multiple testimonies from drivers and key team personnel - and they had the decision reversed by the French courts. I think Luca's comments would have only added pressure to the FIA to "do the right thing", though in this case, the definition of "the right thing" was supplied by Ferrari. To me, it basically amounted to attempting to sway the jury. It doesn't matter whether Ferrari were willing to make good on their threats or whether the threat had any bearing on any member of the tibunal panel, it's the fact that the threat was made in the first place.
 
No, if it were Ferrari saying the FIA didn't "have a leg to stand on", they'd have protested innocence. They'd have said words to the effect of "We don't think we've done anything wrong, and if the FIA penalise us without any evidence or a fair hearing, then we feel it is a matter that should be taken to the courts" - not "If anybody tries to penalise us, we're going to take legal action".

What does Ferrari's innocence or guilt have to do with the FIA's chances of winning the case? Mind you, my opinion is that they're guilty as sin of making Massa move over for Alonso.

They're not protesting their innocence because that would be silly. Ferrari managed to execute a driver swap without issuing a direct order, and if the FIA prosecuted them for it, they would be able to sue the FIA successfully.

The wording of Luca's exact comments were aggressive and came across as an attempt to bully the FIA into ruling in Ferrari's favour or else risk a highly-public lawsuit.

It's a pre-emptive strike, reminding the FIA of how tenuous their stand is. They were just pointing out the obvious. The FIA didn't rule in Ferrari's favor, note. They merely stated that no further punishment was necessary. In other words, the FIA found Ferrari guilty of something, but couldn't push for bigger punishment because they couldn't prove it.

And (now, this part is my opinion, and yes, slightly speculative, but I feel it necessary to point as much out because I know someone in general and The Outlaw in particular will only concentrate on this part of my post if I don't) considering that the FIA had recently had their authority undermined - hell, their entire ability to penalise someone for wrongdoing - by the French courts (was it the French? I'm sure it was the French ...) in the case of Flavio Briatore, it's easy to see why the FIA might be eager to make sure the matter went away quickly. Bearing in mind Ferrari's earlier behaviour where they berated the new teams for simply existing (and conveniently forgetting that there was a time not so long ago - the Capelli years - when they were backmakers, struggling to finish on a regular basis and scoring just 21 WCC points to Williams' 164), I interpreted Luca's comments as being an attempt to bully the FIA into ruling in Ferrari's favour. After all, the FIA felt certain they had an ironclad case against Briatore - with multiple testimonies from drivers and key team personnel - and they had the decision reversed by the French courts. I think Luca's comments would have only added pressure to the FIA to "do the right thing", though in this case, the definition of "the right thing" was supplied by Ferrari. To me, it basically amounted to attempting to sway the jury. It doesn't matter whether Ferrari were willing to make good on their threats or whether the threat had any bearing on any member of the tibunal panel, it's the fact that the threat was made in the first place.

So... what? The FIA has made a lot of spurious rulings in the past few seasons... and hell... I'm surprised McLaren didn't have the guts to do the same for Lewis when the FIA retroactively applied the "re-give the place you took from the guy after you gave him back the place after overtaking him by going back on track" rule to Lewis.

The FIA makes some silly rules. They were going to get called out on this one sooner or later.

I know what you're saying. It's a dirty rotten thing. But Ferrari has the law on their side. If you create rules that are spurious, or unfair... if you fail to follow proper protocol in investigations, and fail to follow your own rules or clarify them... you can get called out on it, and you will lose.

This, I know from bitter experience of cases our company has lost in court.

If Ferrari really wanted to "bully" the FIA, they could sue for defamation and claim that $100,000 back. But hey, they're getting the Driver's Championship this weekend... all for the low price of an extra $100,000 added to their yearly budget.
 
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They're not protesting their innocence because that would be silly. Ferrari managed to execute a driver swap without issuing a direct order, and if the FIA prosecuted them for it, they would be able to sue the FIA successfully.
Maybe - if some other team was the one warning the FIA. If the FIA had prosecuted Ferrari, they could have had points stripped, or a race ban or any one of half a dozen other punishments that would have effectively killed Ferrari's WDC and WCC bids. They had a vested interest in seeing the FIA drop the charges, so their comments come across as very aggressive.
 
Well... opinion, so I can't push that line of argument any further.

It's not a vested interest if there is no secret agenda. Obviously, Ferrari doesn't want points stripped or money taken away. No team does. But Ferrari was also apparently bristling at being accused of violating the letter of the law when they hadn't. Note: Letter... not spirit. Many teams do their best to violate the spirit of the rules (which exists mostly to level the playing field) in order to win without being penalized for violating the letter.

Ferrari have been fighting controversy all season long. They've been actively hostile in the media against their critics and the FIA. I personally feel they deserve the criticism. But I still don't see their "sin" as being any worse, categorically, than Brawn's double-diffuser last season or Red Bull's flexible floors this season... or all the radio orders regarding "fuel saving" this season. All violate, in part, the spirit of the law, but do not violate the letter of the law. If the FIA wanted to win this battle, they should have made the rule clearer.

And they should be careful. The French Court ruling against them in Briatore's case has sound legal basis (never actually bothered reading the details till now). They can't afford another high profile case where they seem completely in the right and yet can't make their punishments stick.

Personally... the rule is useless. A more workable version is this: "Teams cannot radio their drivers during the race or send information to the driver's cars via wireless communication. They also cannot use sign boards to inform the drivers of the position of other cars. Cars and helmets will not have distinct markings, so drivers cannot identify teammates, and drivers will not be told the results of qualifying."

Silly, but that's the only way to prevent team-mates from not racing each other, or giving way to each other.
 
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Not really a spoiler, but just in case because it's a point that I feel merits discussion:
Compare Alonso's reaction to Petrov at the end of the race to Massa's reaction in 2008 and try telling me that Alonso was a worthy champion. He might have had the results, but he didn't have the attitude.
 
He was just mad that he lost the title because he was stuck behind Petrov for most of the race. If I were holding you up, and you needed to get by me and get on wit hit to win a title, but you can't get past me for most of the race, wouldn't you be angry? I would.

Petrov beat Alonso fair and square, but Alonso has the right to argue.
 
Not really a spoiler, but just in case because it's a point that I feel merits discussion:
Compare Alonso's reaction to Petrov at the end of the race to Massa's reaction in 2008 and try telling me that Alonso was a worthy champion. He might have had the results, but he didn't have the attitude.

Nobody was in front of Massa at the time. So there's no one for him to shake a fist at.

Oddly... what do you consider makes a person worthy to be a champion? Is it the same set of criteria that makes a person worthy to win a political seat in an election? Because while, in both cases, we hope for that person to be a good sport, an honest person and a generally good guy... most of the time it's the ruthless, dedicated and completely self-centered that win at both.
 
Not really a spoiler, but just in case because it's a point that I feel merits discussion:
Compare Alonso's reaction to Petrov at the end of the race to Massa's reaction in 2008 and try telling me that Alonso was a worthy champion. He might have had the results, but he didn't have the attitude.

I'm sorry ludes, but I'm going to have to side with Outlaw/Timeattack finally on this. You're just colouring your posts in glaring bias.
Like Peter said, Alonso has every right to be frustrated, the first thing on your mind after the race is not "well done Petrov" when he just cost you it, even if he did nothing wrong. You can't expect everyone to be a sportsman all the time and as we all know, Fernando is the most visibly emotional driver on the grid.

It has nothing to do with being "worthy", sure he is not being very sportsman-like and he wouldn't be a gracious champion...but you don't need to be gracious in defeat to be worthy. What a rediculous statement really.
 
I hope this whole fiasco makes Ferrari aware that team orders aren't always as helpful as you want them to be.

Er....but Alonso wouldn't have won the title either way. Ferrari maximised his chances and if anything they were proved wholly correct after Hockenheim. Massa was never in the contention and never appeared in front of Alonso again, so his 7 points were more useful to Alonso in the end than they ever were to Massa. For all we know, Massa and Alonso could have collided and retired and Alonso wouldn't have been in title contention even this weekend.
Ferrari will continue to use team orders.

Its funny, because people were mocking Red Bull for not utilising team orders at Brazil, as by then the advantage of that Ferrari team order was clear for all to see.
 
Red Bull knew they had a good car with 2 equally capable drivers and had a feeling one of them has the capacity to win the championship, thus no need for team orders. If they has let Webber by Vettel last race, Alonso probably would have been driver's champion. As far as the team orders go with or without Massa's 7 points he would still be in title contention coming into Abu Dhabi. He would just have to honestly win the championship here. Alonso would have had to do what Vettel did, win the race and hope the planets align behind you. Ferrari's team orders had no advantage in Hockenheim when the checkered flag fell today. Maybe Massa gave up his own ambitions this season when he realized he was now his team's number 2. Who knows? I feel bad for the guy.
 
So, basically Ferrari should ditch team orders and instead hire a better driver than Massa and design the best car? Sure, easy as pie! :dopey:
Alonso wouldn't have had an 8 point advantage going into Abu Dhabi, it would have been 1 point. Although its irrelevant in the end with this result, it could have been very relevant.

Its not really comparable with Red Bull as they were fast all season long and neither driver showed any particular dominance over the other. For Ferrari it was obvious who was going to dominate after the first few races and that their car wasn't always going to be fastest.

Not to mention that Ferrari's team orders will almost definitely have applied to more than just Hockenheim. Alonso would have had priority when deciding strategies and testing new parts. Trying to be fair to Massa could have cost points elsewhere.

The silly thing is, of course Ferrari would want Massa to be fighting Alonso and to have the dominant car! (like Williams 1996). There would be no need for team orders then. Thing is, they don't.
 
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Not really a spoiler, but just in case because it's a point that I feel merits discussion:
Compare Alonso's reaction to Petrov at the end of the race to Massa's reaction in 2008 and try telling me that Alonso was a worthy champion. He might have had the results, but he didn't have the attitude.

Boy, right now, you're just throwing whatever you can to make Alonso look bad, without thinking about it, huh? What's next? Alonso picked his nose after the race, so he's unworthy?
 
For some reason, Radracing made it a multiple choice poll, so people can pick both answers if they like.
 
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