Alonso title could devalue F1, says Mosley (Championship spoilers within)

[darkfinal]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This. A zillion times.

Oooh, the hypocrisy. It burns. With love. <3

 

[The Outlaw]

Let me reiterate. I hated Hockenheim. I feel that Alonso should have earned that place instead of having it given to him. But I'm not under the illusion that Ferrari is the only party guilty of handicapping one driver in favor of the other, whether that be through "team orders", through naughty fuel strategy orders, through giving one driver prime parts and forcing the other driver to live with the "old setup... for testing purposes," or even through cheeky pit-stop timing (as seen in Brazil... or whenever McLaren pits their drivers... despite having them pit at wildly different times, they always time it so that Driver A always comes out ahead of Driver B).

It's part of the sport. An ugly, ugly part of the sport, but part of the sport nonetheless. And the onus is upon the drivers whether or not they want to help their team more, or give the fans a better spectacle.

Nice post Niky 👍 It's nice to see someone stand up and give a bit of enlightenment on the subject. As you said, it's just an ugly part of the sport, but part of the sport nonetheless - and to think or ignore suggestions that all of the top teams don't use such tactics and then go out of your way to single out Ferrari, despite the fact that we've seen evidence of such time and time again, is just a case of ignoring the truth IMO.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This. A zillion times.

Oooh, the hypocrisy. It burns. With love. <3

Me...no...see...nothing. Mclaren can do no wrong jk

 

[Rossticles]

If Alonso wins the title by less than 7 points, which is the advantage he gained in Hockenheim, then I completely agree with Mosely. If Alonso doesn't win the championship I believe there is no harm done from team orders.

 

[Hun200kmh]

If Alonso wins the title by less than 7 points, which is the advantage he gained in Hockenheim, then I completely agree with Mosely. If Alonso doesn't win the championship I believe there is no harm done from team orders.

I don't get this logic. Is Hamilton's 2008 title "devalued"? Is 2007 Kimi's ? One thing I know: If Alonso wins the title by less than 7 points there's only one conclusion possible - Ferrari (Domenicalli) was right at Hockenheim.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This. A zillion times.

Oooh, the hypocrisy. It burns. With love. <3

The only problem is that it's clearly been made by a Ferrari fan to justify them doing it.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Yeah ... it's ALLLLLL a conspiracy!


PS - What Ferrari fan do you mean? Heikki or Lewis?

 

[Rossticles]

I don't get this logic. Is Hamilton's 2008 title "devalued"? Is 2007 Kimi's ? One thing I know: If Alonso wins the title by less than 7 points there's only one conclusion possible - Ferrari (Domenicalli) was right at Hockenheim.

I don't recall Kovalainen pulling aside for Hamilton in 2008 or Massa pulling aside for Raikkonen in 2007. Refresh me...in 2007 we saw one of the best driver championships ever. Raikkonen winning by one point over both Hamilton and Alonso. Raikkonen's 110 to Hamilton and Alonso's 109. You believe it was the right decision to not let Massa win, and it may be one of the championship deciding ones. The thing that sucks is we don't get to see racing as it's meant to be. Racing as it's meant to be is what happened to Red Bull in Turkey. When a team tells one driver to slow down or he's too slow or whatever we cease to see who is most deserving of the title win it at the end of the season.

Edit: I don't really like Max Mosley, though.

 

[niky]

Here's a brief:
(I remember watching these incidents but I had to look them up because I forgot which races they occured in)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Brazilian_Grand_Prix (Kimi overtakes Massa, who has led the entire race up to that point... yet is out of contention for 2007 WDC.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_Grand_Prix (Massa overtakes Kimi, after Kimi's 2.5 second gap over Massa mysteriously disappears. Kimi is out of contention for this WDC.)

Typical Ferrari strategy... yet there was no great uproar when Kimi won WDC, and many were rooting for Massa in 2008. Probably because neither is as unloved as Alonso.

-

RE: McLaren 2008: don't really recall... but looking it up... Hamilton passed Kovalainen for the lead at Silverstone that year. Would seem suspicious, however, Hamilton overtook both Alonso and Webber before that... he had to make two attempts (one wheel-banging) to take Hekki, and he was much, much faster than Hekki in the wet... eventually pulling away from him as he dropped down to fifth.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

PS - What Ferrari fan do you mean? Heikki or Lewis?

I mean the video was made by a Ferrari fan. They've seen what happened in Germany, and in order to justify Ferrari doing it, they've shown someone else doing something similar.

 

[albteman015]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This. A zillion times.

Oooh, the hypocrisy. It burns. With love. <3

The reason I agree with that video is the fact that Hamilton just comes from too far back. If It was team orders and they tried to fake a Heiki mistake they made it too obvious. Also Ron Dennis conveniently gets on the radio just before it happen. Oh how I wish we got the radio transmissions for that year.

I mean the video was made by a Ferrari fan. They've seen what happened in Germany, and in order to justify Ferrari doing it, they've shown someone else doing something similar.

See right there. You just said they show someone else doing something similar. The team orders rule was in effect that year. The real reason we are even discussing this is because ferrari made the mistake of it being obvious. If massa had run wide and alsonso got past, no one would be talking this much about it.

Look team orders is a bad thing. I don't agree with them but I have learned to accept them. I have been watching formula 1 since I was 6 and I have seen this situation happen too many times for me to really consider them that big a deal. After all, Ferrari is a team and the definition of a team is a group of people working together towards a common goal. Thats what it really is about. Banning team orders is like telling a team to stop being a team. Does that make sense? It should change. I agree with you on that part interludes. But until someone can come up with a foolproof way to ban team orders there is no point arguing about why they are a curse laid down upon us and who was responsible for committing this severe crime. We should instead argue about how to rid of them. Truce?

As a Ferrari fan I would have loved to see them win the constructors. But they didn't. As far as the driver's go. I don't care who wins. I never really was an Alonso fan. To me he is just another driver who is going to drive for ferrari for a little while and I hope he does a good job at it. But I must admit. This has been one of the best championships I have seen in a long time and whoever wins it will have deserved it in my eyes.

 

[Peter]

I bet that if McLaren or Red Bull used team orders in Abu Dhabi, many of the people who Criticize Ferrari now would understand their reasons. Its all just a outright hate for Ferrari, and everyone who does hate them are too stubborn to even try to understand.

 

[Rossticles]

If you read the race report about the 2007 Brazilian GP you will see that Raikkonen came out with the lead over Massa after his pit stop. If that is considered team orders then every time one driver overtakes his teammate after a pit stop that it's because the team said so? That's hardly the same thing as seeing a driver pull off the racing line to let his teammate by.

Edit:

Its all just a outright hate for Ferrari, and everyone who does hate them are too stubborn to even try to understand.

I love Ferrari. I disagree with what they have done in the past. When Barrichello and M. Schumacher were teammates at Ferrari team orders were horrible! I love Ferrari because they have more racing in their blood than any other manufacturer. The story of Enzo Ferrari selling Ferrari road cars to fund his racing habit is incredible. That's off-topic but I'm just trying to make everyone aware that my opinions are not biased.

 

[chromatic9]

Whoever has the most points deserves the WDC.

We know what's possible at the start of the season. Another situation could arise on Sunday where Vettel may have to help Webber, but Webber has got himself into that position having more points. Are we going to get upset if Vettel moves over? Webber has done the hard work and so has Alonso.

Whoever does the best in said team earns the benefit. It's a team sport, you don't hold your team mates up or undermine the progress with your poor performance. There's no point in Alonso ruining his tyres and turning his engine up to overtake Massa who's not in the running and perhaps take them both out of the race. Just put the call in instead.

If I recall correctly, it did look like Alonso was lining up to pass Massa but thought better of it. I don't see the fuss really. You ban it strongly and it gets seedier with drivers being briefed on faking mistakes instead.

The ultimate situation is say on the last race Alonso is 2nd with a lap to go and the Ferrari number 2 driver is leading but no chance of winning anything or finishing high in the driver standings. Webber is 3rd and wins the WDC if it stays the same. Do you really think the number 2 Ferrari driver is not going to let Alonso through? I'm sorry for you if you think there's a chance of that happening.

Doesn't matter what stage the move over is, if one driver is doing poorly overall or clearly slow there's always a chance of it happening.

 

[east]

After his drives in Hungary, Monza and Singapore, and after scoring more points than anyone else over the last 6 or 7 races, and in a car that is not the quickest on the grid, if Alonso wins the title it will be very well deserved and will not hurt F1 in the slightest.

 

[Ardius]

If you read the race report about the 2007 Brazilian GP you will see that Raikkonen came out with the lead over Massa after his pit stop. If that is considered team orders then every time one driver overtakes his teammate after a pit stop that it's because the team said so? That's hardly the same thing as seeing a driver pull off the racing line to let his teammate by.

Supposedly Massa was brought in 3 laps early so Raikkonen could win. Which, in any case, was coupled with 2008, where we have Raikkonen returning the favour and Kovalinen doing favours for Hamilton (China and Hockenheim respectively).

I mean the video was made by a Ferrari fan. They've seen what happened in Germany, and in order to justify Ferrari doing it, they've shown someone else doing something similar.

Hmm, you're assuming they are "justifying". You could also say they are showing that Ferrari aren't the only "criminals", which is not necessarily justifying their actions, but simply making a point against the big deal people make for Ferrari incidents.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I bet that if McLaren or Red Bull used team orders in Abu Dhabi, many of the people who Criticize Ferrari now would understand their reasons. Its all just a outright hate for Ferrari, and everyone who does hate them are too stubborn to even try to understand.

The difference is that there's a championship on the line in Abu Dhabi. There wasn't in Germany.

 

[Ardius]

The difference is that there's a championship on the line in Abu Dhabi. There wasn't in Germany.

I do believe the German Grand Prix is part of the World Championship, is it not? And that points scored at said race go towards said championship? There is a championship on the line at Bahrain....the only difference being Massa has already shown himself to be off form and not in with a shout of the championship by Germany, especially considering the pace of Ferrari and the deficit they had to make up. At Bahrain (and the early parts of the season), he had a chance to prove he deserves an equal chance. But if he can't even keep up and the car isn't the best, its logical to start backing one driver over another to maximise chances. This is not Ferrari-only tactics, it happens in all motorsports.
I thought it was pretty generous of Ferrari to let Massa hold up Alonso so much at Australia, but people seem to overlook that as if Massa is the poor sod who always gets the short straw.

 

[albteman015]

I do believe the German Grand Prix is part of the World Championship, is it not? And that points scored at said race go towards said championship? There is a championship on the line at Bahrain....the only difference being Massa has already shown himself to be off form and not in with a shout of the championship by Germany, especially considering the pace of Ferrari and the deficit they had to make up. At Bahrain (and the early parts of the season), he had a chance to prove he deserves an equal chance. But if he can't even keep up and the car isn't the best, its logical to start backing one driver over another to maximise chances. This is not Ferrari-only tactics, it happens in all motorsports.
I thought it was pretty generous of Ferrari to let Massa hold up Alonso so much at Australia, but people seem to overlook that as if Massa is the poor sod who always gets the short straw.

I honestly feel that from reading multiple forums, this has turned into an excuse to express some Ferrari hatred. I say to these people that are so suddenly offended by the use of these team tactics. (Thats what they are I refuse to call them team orders anymore.) Instead of complaining, why don't you come up with a way to rid of them? Why is this only a problem in F1. (The series that invented these tactics probably.) Until then, are we really accomplishing much by complaining about them? Thats what I don't understand. By now we know each other's opinion on the subject and certainly a man talking to me from halfway across the world on the internet isn't going to change it. Just shut up already! What is the use? It's not like we are going to change the championship.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I do believe the German Grand Prix is part of the World Championship, is it not? And that points scored at said race go towards said championship? There is a championship on the line at Bahrain....the only difference being Massa has already shown himself to be off form and not in with a shout of the championship by Germany, especially considering the pace of Ferrari and the deficit they had to make up. At Bahrain (and the early parts of the season), he had a chance to prove he deserves an equal chance. But if he can't even keep up and the car isn't the best, its logical to start backing one driver over another to maximise chances. This is not Ferrari-only tactics, it happens in all motorsports.

I mean imminently on the line, life or death for someone's championship campaign. Coming second in Germany would not have put Alonso out of the title race. In fact, he'd still be leading the points standings today if he'd come second at Hockenheim.

I'm sorry, but there is nothing you can do or say that will persuade me otherwise: there is no justification for doing what Ferrari did. Ever. And what really galls is the way we all know Ferrari would have been the first one before the stewards complaining about if it had been someone else who issued team orders. My issue with Ferrari is not so much that they used team orders in the first place, it's that they expect to be able to get away with it because they're Ferrari, and then criticise anyone else who even thinks of doing it.

 

[Peter]

Uhh, stubborn much?

Alonso would be leading, yes, but leading by only 1 point right now, rather than 8 points. Not a safe margin, now is it? IN a championship like this year's where there's so much points up for grabs, a driver in the title hunt NEEDS as much points he possibly can get if he wants to get the championship, no slacking off at all. The title wasn't directly on the line in Hockenheim, but anything can happen in this championship. One day, you could be lading by 14 points, next day, you're down by 11. Can you drill it into your head already?

Ferrari got away with it because of lack of evidence, and because the rule is near impossible to enforce, because there is never any perfect way of confirming that they did intentionally use team orders. Only way they can prove it is if the team said clearly "let the other guy by for the win" or something like that. And no one would ever do that, it is against the rules, and they would be penalized. I'm' sure that any team used team orders, they would perhaps get away with it as well. Not now, of course, but if Ferrari didn't use team orders at all in 2010, and another team did, in similar fashion, they would be just fine.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Uhh, stubborn much?

You call it stubborn. I call it sticking to my beliefs.

Alonso would be leading, yes, but leading by only 1 point right now, rather than 8 points. Not a safe margin, now is it?

Doesn't justify it.

IN a championship like this year's where there's so much points up for grabs, a driver in the title hunt NEEDS as much points he possibly can get if he wants to get the championship, no slacking off at all.

Again, this doesn't justify it. Everybody else has maanged just fine without needing team orders.

The title wasn't directly on the line in Hockenheim, but anything can happen in this championship. One day, you could be lading by 14 points, next day, you're down by 11. Can you drill it into your head already?

If anything needs to be drilled intosomebody's head, it's this: I do not believe that team orders are ever justified, no matter what the situation is. As long as a driver is in contention for the World Championship - like Massa was - then the team has no right to deny him of that opportunity.

Ferrari got away with it because of lack of evidence, and because the rule is near impossible to enforce, because there is never any perfect way of confirming that they did intentionally use team orders. Only way they can prove it is if the team said clearly "let the other guy by for the win" or something like that. And no one would ever do that, it is against the rules, and they would be penalized. I'm' sure that any team used team orders, they would perhaps get away with it as well. Not now, of course, but if Ferrari didn't use team orders at all in 2010, and another team did, in similar fashion, they would be just fine.

That still doesn't change the fact that Ferrari think they can pull this sort of crap and expect to get away with it. Nor does it change the fact that they would be the first ones to protest if someone else did it. After all, when they were called before the WMSC, they said they would launch legal action against anyone who attempted to penalise them. That's like a thief stealing something in the night and then trying to sue his victims when they want charge him. Look at what happened in Valencia - when Hamilton's penalty didn't move him back down the order the way Ferrari expected it to, they went looking for ways to penalise everyone else, and settled on the delta time. Jenson Button was right on top of the pit entry when Webber crashed, and was able to pit straight away. He had no chance of setting a lap time over the delta unless he physically stopped on the circuit. Ferrari were deeply critical of Max Mosley's proposed budget cap last season because it would have created a "two-tiered" championship, with one set of teams competing under one set of rules, and another set of teams competing under a different set. Yet their behaviour shows that they expect to be allowed to do what they want and get away with it, yet they'll complain loudest and longest when someone does something they don't like. It's a by-product of having too cosy a relationship with the FIA for years, and it needs to be stamped out. Ferrari might have been around for sixty years, but that makes them no better than a team that has raced for all of sixty laps, whatever they may think.

 

[Akmuq]

I have to say that peter is right and Ferrari were right to switch their drivers. I know if I were the red bull boss and vettel was leading from webber and then alonso on Sunday, I would get vettel out of the way. If he doesn't I'd mess up his engine to a state it was in in monza.

 

[Ardius]

I mean imminently on the line, life or death for someone's championship campaign. Coming second in Germany would not have put Alonso out of the title race. In fact, he'd still be leading the points standings today if he'd come second at Hockenheim.

I'm sorry, but there is nothing you can do or say that will persuade me otherwise: there is no justification for doing what Ferrari did. Ever. And what really galls is the way we all know Ferrari would have been the first one before the stewards complaining about if it had been someone else who issued team orders. My issue with Ferrari is not so much that they used team orders in the first place, it's that they expect to be able to get away with it because they're Ferrari, and then criticise anyone else who even thinks of doing it.

There is justification though, you just choose not to hear it. Its already been stated many times to you already.

Please, answer this question, do you even watch other motorsports?

My issue with Ferrari is not so much that they used team orders in the first place, it's that they expect to be able to get away with it because they're Ferrari, and then criticise anyone else who even thinks of doing it.

Oh, so really the whole reason is because you've decided that Ferrari have an agenda.
Ferrari expect to "get away with it" because many other teams have also "gotten away with it". Not "because they're Ferrari".

 

[prisonermonkeys]

There is justification though, you just choose not to hear it. Its already been stated many times to you already.

And I feel that justification is nowhere near strong enough. It's like a murderer defending himself by saying his victim had it coming.

Please, answer this question, do you even watch other motorsports?

When I can.

Oh, so really the whole reason is because you've decided that Ferrari have an agenda.
Ferrari expect to "get away with it" because many other teams have also "gotten away with it". Not "because they're Ferrari".

No, Ferrari expect to get away with it because they assume they're better and more important to the sport than the other teams and that Formula 1 won't survive without them. Ferrari believe they are Formula 1.

 

[darkfinal]

The difference is that there's a championship on the line in Abu Dhabi. There wasn't in Germany.

Are you kidding? Both races belong to the SAME championship, if you didn't notice, and the points won in the first race are of no less value than any other points.

That argument is just stupid.

You call it stubborn. I call it sticking to my beliefs.

You didn't say a friggin' thing back in 2007 when Massa let Raikkonen pass for a whole WDC. I checked it. You posted periodically before the race, disappeared for a couple hours after it, and showed up the day after - Making not a single mention about dirty, cheating, stinky team orders. I call that having no principles.

 

[yeti]

Thinking about it of course - if Alonso *does* win the WDC by less than 7 points... then Ferrari will have done the perfect thing...

C.

 

[Ardius]

And I feel that justification is nowhere near strong enough. It's like a murderer defending himself by saying his victim had it coming.

When I can.

No, Ferrari expect to get away with it because they assume they're better and more important to the sport than the other teams and that Formula 1 won't survive without them. Ferrari believe they are Formula 1.

Mate, you're delusional. You're pretending you know how Ferrari thinks. Yes, Ferrari has displayed impressive arrogance but I don't think they are so arrogant they think they can get away with it just because they're Ferrari. If that was true, they could have done far worse before now.
Certainly, the reason Hockenheim happened isn't because of arrogance. Its because Massa had shown poor form so far and Alonso had a better chance for the championship. For Massa to take it at that point, Ferrari would have had to suddenly find extremely dominant form, which wasn't going to happen and is impossible to know. As its turned out, it was the correct decision.

Did McLaren also carry out team orders because they were arrogant?

If you do watch other motorsports, then you would understand there are teams out there more guilty of team orders than Ferrari is.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yes, Ferrari has displayed impressive arrogance but I don't think they are so arrogant they think they can get away with it just because they're Ferrari. If that was true, they could have done far worse before now.

Then how do you explain their reaction to being called before the WMSC hearing. Like I said, they announced that they would take legal action against anyone who tried to penalise them.

 

[Ardius]

Probably because Ferrari were sick of being singled out like that and like you're doing now. Ferrari would win such a legal case because other teams have been guilty of team orders and not punished plus there is no way of proving team orders in the first place.
Why should Ferrari be punished for what they did in Hockenheim? Why should Ferrari simply lie down and take the media barrage and negative publicity?

 

[niky]

As long as a driver is in contention for the World Championship - like Massa was - then the team has no right to deny him of that opportunity.

Who pays the driver's salaries, again? Teams have shown in the past, and have shown in this year's running, that they are willing to order drivers to change fuel trims, (possibly to adjust their race pace, and possibly to prevent an overtake... nothing you could prove in court), when they're either in front of or behind their team-mate. They are willing to give one driver a different car or different aerodynamic parts. They are willing to use different pit strategies for both drivers (and, oh... what a coincidence... Hamilton comes out two car-lengths ahead of Button... again). They are willing to sit a driver out and put another one in for money, even if the driver is doing well and getting results.

The driver's rights are only as much as the team gives him. And while I pity Massa being on the short end of the stick, if he doesn't like it, he can leave. Follow Alonso's stellar example... ...whine and moan about unequal treatment then move to the team's biggest competitor.

Then how do you explain their reaction to being called before the WMSC hearing. Like I said, they announced that they would take legal action against anyone who tried to penalise them.

Because Ferrari is in the right? Much as people don't want to admit it... legally, there is absolutely no physical evidence that they issued team orders.

Not unless Smedley and Massa were to take the witness stand and swear that Ferrari ordered Massa to back off. Do you see that happening? I don't. Like I've said... Massa has benefitted from this before, in his own championship push. And further... no orders were issued. A radio message: "He's faster" is not an explicit order, merely an implied one. And going to court saying: "the suspect told the homicide victim: "Oi, there's a gun shop on 4th street" isn't going to get you a murder conviction.*

And in this metaphor, it's the victim who has to choose to buy a gun and shoot himself in the head.