Suspension Dampening Cheatgrid

budious

I have been messing with the whole inverted damper thing today. There are certain benefits to that setup but the track surface has to be entirely smooth and predictable, not a lot of bumps to soak up, which when used sets impressive lap times on Grand Valley or Laguna Seca. However, try the same setup on Deep Forest and you find it doesn't work there about 20 seconds into the first lap.

I kind of had to make me an inverted chart to help get my head around the idea. The number in parenthesis (-) being the inverse as how many people think it should be or assume it is. The ones not in parenthesis how you set it in menu.

(-)-Rebound--------------------Bound----
-------------------------------------------- fast end of the spectrum
(1)-------10------------------------1------
(2)--------9------------------------2------
(3)--------8------------------------3------
(4)--------7------------------------4------
(5)--------6------------------------5------
(6)--------5------------------------6------
(7)--------4------------------------7------
(8)--------3------------------------8------
(9)--------2------------------------9------
(10)-------1-----------------------10-----
-------------------------------------------- slow end of the spectrum

Like so if for example, I tune my springs on Deep Forest using a neutral and standard bound equals rebound setup, then I could easily invert the setup by going -1 rebound and +1 bound and generally the result was stable, I could up that another level by another increment in opposite directions and the pair would usually be stable (assuming you're trying a smooth track like Grand Valley).

Basically, this rule of thumb kind of fit most of the time I tried it. I just take my setup as is for Deep Forest with say DE 5/5 and DC 5/5 and find DE 4/4 and DC 6/6 was a usable combination and the ride was more often than not balanced. Then if I wanted to try another increment, DE 3/3 and DC 7/7 would normally be stable as well. DE 2/2 and DC 8/8 also worked sometimes, DE 1/1 and DC 9/9 usually didn't, but sometimes DE 2/2 and DC 9/9 worked out. Much was dependent on spring rate in ratio increments or adjustments to anti-roll bars if DE 2/2 and DC 8/8 didn't work, it might work at the next spring rate tweak. Getting them to add up somewhere around 10, I know it sounds silly, seems to work - as a quick rule of thumb on my tunes.

Basically each increment either moves both towards the slow spectrum end or the fast spectrum end depending on how you want it to respond.

The other rule of thumb, "bound should be one setting below rebound" now also makes sense here since it one notch above the corresponding rebound (-) in the spectrum. So in theory now, bound 4/4 and rebound 6/6 can work for a lumpy track and bound 6/6 and rebound 4/4 works for a smooth track, etc.

Just to let you know how well this works, I just ran a 1:13.005" lap followed by a 1:13.006" on Deep Forest using a rebound of 10/10 and a bound of 2/2 on my Camaro Z/28 RM '69, it's like driving a stick of butter now... which actually adds up to 12, so bad example. DE 8/8 and DC 2/2, much better... now I want some stiffness back on my rear wheels for better acceleration but handling at the front, so DE 8/6 and DC 2/4... this makes tuning so stupid easy, can't believe I didn't see it until now.

Click to expand...

BlueShift

You can't do like that because you always cross at 5/5 [/I]

Click to expand...

Scottster

Have you had time to do my little test?

Click to expand...

• Spring rates optimized for combined weight and weight distribution of car at neutral ride height while dampers were in a neutral state. Rebound 4/4; Bound 4/4 or 5/5; 5/5 preferable.
• Anti-roll bars optimized once the above condition was met, then continue on below:

1. if B+ > R+ than...
   • suspension compression is slower than extension rate, absorbing the least surface imperfections resulting in less grip but offering more speed
   • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition in comparison to the B+ <= R+ conditions, yet more slowly in comparison to the B+:R+(-) conditions; weight transfer is balanced by relative rate to compression on the opposing end; higher B+ places the weight transfer onto the wheel more quickly
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 8/8
2. if B+ = R+ than...
   • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across minimal imperfections and a potential median for speed is reached
   • weight transfer occurs at a consistent rate from front to rear though at a delayed rate in comparison to the B+ > R+ condition and all of the B+:R+(-) conditions; weight transfer only faster than the B+ < R+ condition
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 7/7
3. if B+ < R+ than...
   • suspension compression is faster than extension rate, absorbing the most surface imperfections to improve grip but sacrificing speed
   • weight transfer occurs most slowly under this condition compared to all others, but is partially counter balanced by lower B+ on the opposing end triggering a return weight shift sooner
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 6/6
4. if B+ > R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression is slower than extension rate, absorbing the least surface imperfections resulting in less grip but offering more speed
   • weight transfer occurs most quickly under this condition than for all other conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end with a higher B+; fastest weight transfer of the B+:R+(-) conditions
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 9/9
5. if B+ = R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across minimal imperfections and a potential median for speed and control is reached
   • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition than for the B+ < R+(-) condition and B+:R+ conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end; equilibrium is achieved
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 8/8
6. if B+ < R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression is faster than extension rate, absorbing the most surface imperfections resulting in more grip and control at the expense of speed
   • weight transfer occurs less quickly under this condition than for the B+ >= R+(-) conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end, a lower B+ triggering an earlier weight shift
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 7/7

• if B+ = R+ than...
  • results in a highly active suspension system the closer it is set to minimum extremes
  • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across maximum variations in track surface and a potential median for speed and control is reached; optimized approach that fairs particularly well for use with front suspension setups on technically challenging courses (ie. Deep Forest Raceway, Trial Mountain, Nurburgring)
  • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition than for any of the alternative conditions
  • can result in snap oversteer if set to the extreme (ie. R+ 1, B+ 1) or possibly lower depending on setup; adverse effects typically minimized by using a standard B+ = R+ theory to tune the rear at values closer to counter balance center

budious

Modified again to help with the following examples I'm about to give below the chart:

Prerequisites

You need to find the optimal spring rates for the car that you want to test these settings on. To maximize benefits from an active suspension, tune it at neutral ride height.

• Spring rates optimized for combined weight and weight distribution of car at neutral ride height while dampers were in a neutral state. Rebound 4/4; Bound 4/4 or 5/5; 5/5 preferable.
• Anti-roll bars optimized once the above condition was met, then continue on below:

R+-----R+(-)---------------------B(+)----
-------------------------------------------- fast end of the suspension movement spectrum; for technical tracks with rough surfaces
1-------(10)------------------------1------|---five clicks above---
2--------(9)------------------------2------|---four clicks above---
3--------(8)------------------------3------|---three clicks above--
4--------(7)------------------------4------|---two clicks above---
5--------(6)------------------------5------|---one click above----
-------------------------------------------- demarcation of counter balance center
6--------(5)------------------------6------|----one click below----
7--------(4)------------------------7------|----two clicks below---
8--------(3)------------------------8------|----three clicks below---
9--------(2)------------------------9------|----four clicks below----
10-------(1)-----------------------10------|---five clicks below----
-------------------------------------------- slow end of the suspension movement spectrum; for fast circuits with smooth surfaces

Preliminary Findings - The Six Rules of Suspension Dampening

Assuming R+ or R+(-) is constant and B+ is variable, than the following conditional statements can be measured. Assuming the tested condition (for as B+:R+(-) conditions are concerned) has been set for both dampers front and rear. Assuming you have properly tuned the spring rate and anti-roll bars at a neutral ride height (0/0; typically you may -5/-5 to +5/+5 for fine spring rate tuning) to realize maximum potentials of the following:

Due to the lack of track variety in GT5 it may be hard to measure the benefits of each condition, but each probably has a real world application on a test driving track.

1. if B+ > R+ than...
   • suspension compression is slower than extension rate, absorbing the least surface imperfections resulting in less grip but offering more speed
   • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition in comparison to the B+ <= R+ conditions, yet more slowly in comparison to the B+:R+(-) conditions; weight transfer is balanced by relative rate to compression on the opposing end; higher B+ places the weight transfer onto the wheel more quickly
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 8/8
2. if B+ = R+ than...
   • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across minimal imperfections and a potential median for speed is reached
   • weight transfer occurs at a consistent rate from front to rear though at a delayed rate in comparison to the B+ > R+ condition and all of the B+:R+(-) conditions; weight transfer only faster than the B+ < R+ condition
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 7/7
3. if B+ < R+ than...
   • suspension compression is faster than extension rate, absorbing the most surface imperfections to improve grip but sacrificing speed
   • weight transfer occurs most slowly under this condition compared to all others, but is partially counter balanced by lower B+ on the opposing end triggering a return weight shift sooner
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 6/6
4. if B+ > R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression is slower than extension rate, absorbing the least surface imperfections resulting in less grip but offering more speed
   • weight transfer occurs most quickly under this condition than for all other conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end with a higher B+; fastest weight transfer of the B+:R+(-) conditions
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 9/9
5. if B+ = R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across minimal imperfections and a potential median for speed and control is reached
   • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition than for the B+ < R+(-) condition and B+:R+ conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end; equilibrium is achieved
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 8/8
6. if B+ < R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression is faster than extension rate, absorbing the most surface imperfections resulting in more grip and control at the expense of speed
   • weight transfer occurs less quickly under this condition than for the B+ >= R+(-) conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end, a lower B+ triggering an earlier weight shift
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 7/7

Example damper configurations should be read as:
R+
----------------------------------------------
--3--two clicks above counter balance---
--8--two clicks below counter balance---
----------------------------------------------
B+
----------------------------------------------
--3--two clicks above counter balance---
--8--two clicks below counter balance---
----------------------------------------------
R+ = R+(-) it is on the same line of the grid it appears. R+ is the setting applied in game.
----------------------------------------------

In essence, utilizing R+(-) theory is maximizing suspension performance by reaching equilibrium at 0; a combination of X clicks above counter balance line for R+, with X clicks below counter balance for B+.

R+(-) so far seems to work well for smoother circuits.
R+(+) is a counter theory for R+(-) but no, it's not the same as R+ in theory... though the numbers will be the same as R+ when applied.

Wrap-up:
"R-positive," or R+ is the way the numbers are represented for rebound on the game's suspension menu. Traditional application of R+ may result in well handling vehicles that could gain a little from a R+(-) or R+(+) conversion. There are probably applications and scenarios where R+ may still be preferred. R+ values on the grid represent the settings as they occur in the game, starting at 1 and descending to 10, because this is the spectrum of suspension movement speed from fastest to slowest.

"R-positive inverted," or R+(-) is the way the numbers are inverted on the grid to find their opposing value of equilibrium by finding a matching pair on the same line. R+(-) should be paired with B+ on the same line, ie. R+(-) 3 and B+ 8 are both two clicks below the counter balance line. R+(-) is the same as R+ in this sense of the notation, it's just the order in which it appears below or above the counter balance line. So the R+(-) number on the corresponding row as the B+ value is the R+ value to be used. R+(-) are shown in parenthesis on the grid - (3) is equivalent to a R+ value of 3 on far left column, but it will appear at it's correct orientation as an opposing counter balance force.

"R-positive re-inverted," or R+(+) is the way the numbers are aligned from a top down perspective of maximizing the entire suspension movement range... so basically the line of counter balance is moved to above R+/B+ values of 1... so everything below becomes a representation of if R+(+)=B+ than suspension will be most active at minimum values, and become less active as they are raised in equilibrium. R+(+) and B+ both set to 1 will produce the most reactive suspension setup with the softest compression and the strongest extension. Setting both values to 2 will reduce the effect by a factor. It's essentially an alternative perspective on how to perceive the function of the normal R+=B+ and how it can be a good setup in these particular test cases where an active suspension is strongly desired.

R+(+) modified grid to demonstrate and provide theory rules for active suspension setups for the technical courses.

R+-----R+(+)---------------------B(+)----
-------------------------------------------- fast end of the suspension movement spectrum; for technical tracks with rough surfaces
1--------(1)------------------------1------ ideal range
2--------(2)------------------------2------ ideal range
3--------(3)------------------------3------ ideal range
4--------(4)------------------------4------ ideal range
5--------(5)------------------------5------ threshold range
-------------------------------------------- estimated threshold for performance gain from R+(+) theory... switch to R+ or R+(-)
6--------(6)------------------------6------- threshold range
7--------(7)------------------------7------- outside of ideal range
8--------(8)------------------------8------- outside of ideal range
9--------(9)------------------------9------- outside of ideal range
10------(10)-----------------------10------ outside of ideal range
-------------------------------------------- slow end of the suspension movement spectrum; for fast circuits with smooth surfaces

Applications for Theories

R+ for use with general purpose setups, ideally close to the counter balance center in the range of R+/B+ setting or handling may become erratic. This can provide stable lap times that are below peak optimization across a wide variety of courses. May be combined with R+(+) on the front suspension for optimal wheel tracking.

R+(-) for high speed racing where the circuits are considerably smooth and do not present too many inconsistencies in surface variation when making a lap. Use two values closer to the counter balance center within the R+/B+ range when on a high-speed circuit with more bumps than others, more extreme values may work for the smoothest of the circuits. This setup type appears to be dependent upon the front and rear suspension being given the same values front to back for best performance and handling.

R+(+) for technical courses can provide plusher suspension with greater wheel tracking through corners and small surface imperfections. Tested applications for theory include softening the front suspension on a FR vehicle for better wheel tracking at lower values, while using higher values at the rear drive wheels for a good mix of acceleration. Above a value of 5 on the R+(+) theory grid you start to cross the threshold into standard R+ theory. A mix of R+(+) on the front and R+ on the rear may be optimal.

Click to expand...

budious

Modified again to help with the following examples I'm about to give below the chart:

Prerequisites

You need to find the optimal spring rates for the car that you want to test these settings on. To maximize benefits from an active suspension, tune it at neutral ride height.

• Spring rates optimized for combined weight and weight distribution of car at neutral ride height while dampers were in a neutral state. Rebound 4/4; Bound 4/4 or 5/5; 5/5 preferable.
• Anti-roll bars optimized once the above condition was met, then continue on below:

R+-----R+(-)---------------------B(+)----
-------------------------------------------- fast end of the suspension movement spectrum; for technical tracks with rough surfaces
1-------(10)------------------------1------|---five clicks above---
2--------(9)------------------------2------|---four clicks above---
3--------(8)------------------------3------|---three clicks above--
4--------(7)------------------------4------|---two clicks above---
5--------(6)------------------------5------|---one click above----
-------------------------------------------- demarcation of counter balance center
6--------(5)------------------------6------|----one click below----
7--------(4)------------------------7------|----two clicks below---
8--------(3)------------------------8------|----three clicks below---
9--------(2)------------------------9------|----four clicks below----
10-------(1)-----------------------10------|---five clicks below----
-------------------------------------------- slow end of the suspension movement spectrum; for fast circuits with smooth surfaces

Preliminary Findings - The Six Rules of Suspension Dampening

Assuming R+ or R+(-) is constant and B+ is variable, than the following conditional statements can be measured. Assuming the tested condition (for as B+:R+(-) conditions are concerned) has been set for both dampers front and rear. Assuming you have properly tuned the spring rate and anti-roll bars at a neutral ride height (0/0; typically you may -5/-5 to +5/+5 for fine spring rate tuning) to realize maximum potentials of the following:

Due to the lack of track variety in GT5 it may be hard to measure the benefits of each condition, but each probably has a real world application on a test driving track.

1. if B+ > R+ than...
   • suspension compression is slower than extension rate, absorbing the least surface imperfections resulting in less grip but offering more speed
   • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition in comparison to the B+ <= R+ conditions, yet more slowly in comparison to the B+:R+(-) conditions; weight transfer is balanced by relative rate to compression on the opposing end; higher B+ places the weight transfer onto the wheel more quickly
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 8/8
2. if B+ = R+ than...
   • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across minimal imperfections and a potential median for speed is reached
   • weight transfer occurs at a consistent rate from front to rear though at a delayed rate in comparison to the B+ > R+ condition and all of the B+:R+(-) conditions; weight transfer only faster than the B+ < R+ condition
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 7/7
3. if B+ < R+ than...
   • suspension compression is faster than extension rate, absorbing the most surface imperfections to improve grip but sacrificing speed
   • weight transfer occurs most slowly under this condition compared to all others, but is partially counter balanced by lower B+ on the opposing end triggering a return weight shift sooner
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 6/6
4. if B+ > R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression is slower than extension rate, absorbing the least surface imperfections resulting in less grip but offering more speed
   • weight transfer occurs most quickly under this condition than for all other conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end with a higher B+; fastest weight transfer of the B+:R+(-) conditions
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 9/9
5. if B+ = R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across minimal imperfections and a potential median for speed and control is reached
   • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition than for the B+ < R+(-) condition and B+:R+ conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end; equilibrium is achieved
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 8/8
6. if B+ < R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression is faster than extension rate, absorbing the most surface imperfections resulting in more grip and control at the expense of speed
   • weight transfer occurs less quickly under this condition than for the B+ >= R+(-) conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end, a lower B+ triggering an earlier weight shift
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 7/7

Example damper configurations should be read as:
R+
----------------------------------------------
--3--two clicks above counter balance---
--8--two clicks below counter balance---
----------------------------------------------
B+
----------------------------------------------
--3--two clicks above counter balance---
--8--two clicks below counter balance---
----------------------------------------------
R+ = R+(-) it is on the same line of the grid it appears. R+ is the setting applied in game.
----------------------------------------------

In essence, utilizing R+(-) theory is maximizing suspension performance by reaching equilibrium at 0; a combination of X clicks above counter balance line for R+, with X clicks below counter balance for B+.

R+(-) so far seems to work well for smoother circuits.
R+(+) is a counter theory for R+(-) but no, it's not the same as R+ in theory... though the numbers will be the same as R+ when applied.

Wrap-up:
"R-positive," or R+ is the way the numbers are represented for rebound on the game's suspension menu. Traditional application of R+ may result in well handling vehicles that could gain a little from a R+(-) or R+(+) conversion. There are probably applications and scenarios where R+ may still be preferred. R+ values on the grid represent the settings as they occur in the game, starting at 1 and descending to 10, because this is the spectrum of suspension movement speed from fastest to slowest.

"R-positive inverted," or R+(-) is the way the numbers are inverted on the grid to find their opposing value of equilibrium by finding a matching pair on the same line. R+(-) should be paired with B+ on the same line, ie. R+(-) 3 and B+ 8 are both two clicks below the counter balance line. R+(-) is the same as R+ in this sense of the notation, it's just the order in which it appears below or above the counter balance line. So the R+(-) number on the corresponding row as the B+ value is the R+ value to be used. R+(-) are shown in parenthesis on the grid - (3) is equivalent to a R+ value of 3 on far left column, but it will appear at it's correct orientation as an opposing counter balance force.

"R-positive re-inverted," or R+(+) is the way the numbers are aligned from a top down perspective of maximizing the entire suspension movement range... so basically the line of counter balance is moved to above R+/B+ values of 1... so everything below becomes a representation of if R+(+)=B+ than suspension will be most active at minimum values, and become less active as they are raised in equilibrium. R+(+) and B+ both set to 1 will produce the most reactive suspension setup with the softest compression and the strongest extension. Setting both values to 2 will reduce the effect by a factor. It's essentially an alternative perspective on how to perceive the function of the normal R+=B+ and how it can be a good setup in these particular test cases where an active suspension is strongly desired.

R+(+) modified grid to demonstrate and provide theory rules for active suspension setups for the technical courses.

R+-----R+(+)---------------------B(+)----
-------------------------------------------- fast end of the suspension movement spectrum; for technical tracks with rough surfaces
1--------(1)------------------------1------ ideal range
2--------(2)------------------------2------ ideal range
3--------(3)------------------------3------ ideal range
4--------(4)------------------------4------ ideal range
5--------(5)------------------------5------ threshold range
-------------------------------------------- estimated threshold for performance gain from R+(+) theory... switch to R+ or R+(-)
6--------(6)------------------------6------- threshold range
7--------(7)------------------------7------- outside of ideal range
8--------(8)------------------------8------- outside of ideal range
9--------(9)------------------------9------- outside of ideal range
10------(10)-----------------------10------ outside of ideal range
-------------------------------------------- slow end of the suspension movement spectrum; for fast circuits with smooth surfaces

Special Rule for Technical Courses

• if B+ = R+(+) than...
  • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across maximum variations in track surface and a potential median for speed and control is reached; optimized approach that fairs particularly well for use with front suspension setups on technically challenging courses (ie. Deep Forest Raceway, Trial Mountain, Nurburgring)
  • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition than for any of the alternative conditions
  • can result in snap oversteer if set to the extreme (ie. R+ 1, B+ 1) or possibly lower depending on setup; adverse effects typically minimized by using a standard B+ = R+ theory to tune the rear at values closer to counter balance center

Applications for Theories

R+ for use with general purpose setups, ideally close to the counter balance center in the range of R+/B+ setting or handling may become erratic. This can provide stable lap times that are below peak optimization across a wide variety of courses. May be combined with R+(+) on the front suspension for optimal wheel tracking.

R+(-) for high speed racing where the circuits are considerably smooth and do not present too many inconsistencies in surface variation when making a lap. Use two values closer to the counter balance center within the R+/B+ range when on a high-speed circuit with more bumps than others, more extreme values may work for the smoothest of the circuits. This setup type appears to be dependent upon the front and rear suspension being given the same values front to back for best performance and handling.

R+(+) for technical courses can provide plusher suspension with greater wheel tracking through corners and small surface imperfections. Tested applications for theory include softening the front suspension on a FR vehicle for better wheel tracking at lower values, while using higher values at the rear drive wheels for a good mix of acceleration. Above a value of 5 on the R+(+) theory grid you start to cross the threshold into standard R+ theory. A mix of R+(+) on the front and R+ on the rear may be optimal.

Click to expand...

itsthedre4m

you need to simplify this. Honestly.. I don't know where to start when i look at it.

Click to expand...

oppositelock

I definitely have to give you an A+++ with a gold star for effort, but to be totally honest I think you're waaaayyyyy over-analyzing this. In all my experimentation with dampers I've never seen anything to suggest that extension is inverted. Once, I was testing a setup with soft springs, soft (low numbers) compression and hard (high numbers) extension on the Nordschelife. In the replay I could visibly see the tires being "sucked up" into the wheel well and staying there when going over the curbs. Running high rebound values in general seems to result in noticeably more controlled body motion in my experience. Now, it's possible your system might work to some degree (haven't tried it yet), but I don't think it will be because of the reasons you think it does.

Click to expand...

powell145

Well, I for one agree the settings for rebound are inverted.

Car handling shows this. Why is it in transistions, a lower rebound in the rear will cause a looser rear end - on every car I've tried so far (STi, 300ZX, Camaro Z28).

These cars pushes like crazy; and I have tried to compensate by maxing rebound; but it never seemed to help. Then, behold, tried lowering rebound for these cars to 2 or 3 setting and look at that - a looser rear end during transitions.

Click to expand...

budious

Modified again to help with the following examples I'm about to give below the chart:

Prerequisites

You need to find the optimal spring rates for the car that you want to test these settings on. To maximize benefits from an active suspension, tune it at neutral ride height.

• Spring rates optimized for combined weight and weight distribution of car at neutral ride height while dampers were in a neutral state. Rebound 4/4; Bound 4/4 or 5/5; 5/5 preferable.
• Anti-roll bars optimized once the above condition was met, then continue on below:

R+-----R+(-)---------------------B(+)----
-------------------------------------------- fast end of the suspension movement spectrum; for technical tracks with rough surfaces
10-------(1)------------------------1------|---five clicks above---
9--------(2)------------------------2------|---four clicks above---
8--------(3)------------------------3------|---three clicks above--
7--------(4)------------------------4------|---two clicks above---
6--------(5)------------------------5------|---one click above----
-------------------------------------------- demarcation of counter balance center
5--------(6)------------------------6------|----one click below----
4--------(7)------------------------7------|----two clicks below---
3--------(8)------------------------8------|----three clicks below---
2--------(9)------------------------9------|----four clicks below----
1--------(10)----------------------10------|---five clicks below----
-------------------------------------------- slow end of the suspension movement spectrum; for fast circuits with smooth surfaces

Preliminary Findings - The Six Rules of Suspension Dampening

Assuming R+ or R+(-) is constant and B+ is variable, than the following conditional statements can be measured. Assuming the tested condition (for as B+:R+(-) conditions are concerned) has been set for both dampers front and rear. Assuming you have properly tuned the spring rate and anti-roll bars at a neutral ride height (0/0; typically you may -5/-5 to +5/+5 for fine spring rate tuning) to realize maximum potentials of the following:

Due to the lack of track variety in GT5 it may be hard to measure the benefits of each condition, but each probably has a real world application on a test driving track.

1. if B+ > R+ than...
   • suspension compression is slower than extension rate, absorbing the least surface imperfections resulting in less grip but offering more speed
   • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition in comparison to the B+ <= R+ conditions, yet more slowly in comparison to the B+:R+(-) conditions; weight transfer is balanced by relative rate to compression on the opposing end; higher B+ places the weight transfer onto the wheel more quickly
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 8/8
2. if B+ = R+ than...
   • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across minimal imperfections and a potential median for speed is reached
   • weight transfer occurs at a consistent rate from front to rear though at a delayed rate in comparison to the B+ > R+ condition and all of the B+:R+(-) conditions; weight transfer only faster than the B+ < R+ condition
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 7/7
3. if B+ < R+ than...
   • suspension compression is faster than extension rate, absorbing the most surface imperfections to improve grip but sacrificing speed
   • weight transfer occurs most slowly under this condition compared to all others, but is partially counter balanced by lower B+ on the opposing end triggering a return weight shift sooner
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 7/7; Damper Compression (B+) 6/6
4. if B+ > R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression is slower than extension rate, absorbing the least surface imperfections resulting in less grip but offering more speed
   • weight transfer occurs most quickly under this condition than for all other conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end with a higher B+; fastest weight transfer of the B+:R+(-) conditions
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 9/9
5. if B+ = R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across minimal imperfections and a potential median for speed and control is reached
   • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition than for the B+ < R+(-) condition and B+:R+ conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end; equilibrium is achieved
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 8/8
6. if B+ < R+(-) than...
   • suspension compression is faster than extension rate, absorbing the most surface imperfections resulting in more grip and control at the expense of speed
   • weight transfer occurs less quickly under this condition than for the B+ >= R+(-) conditions; but balanced in relative rate to compression on the opposing end, a lower B+ triggering an earlier weight shift
   • example: Damper Extension (R+) 3/3; Damper Compression (B+) 7/7

Example damper configurations should be read as:
R+
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--3--two clicks above counter balance---
--8--two clicks below counter balance---
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B+
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--3--two clicks above counter balance---
--8--two clicks below counter balance---
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R+ = R+(-) it is on the same line of the grid it appears. R+ is the setting applied in game.
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In essence, utilizing R+(-) theory is maximizing suspension performance by reaching equilibrium at 0; a combination of X clicks above counter balance line for R+, with X clicks below counter balance for B+.

R+(-) so far seems to work well for smoother circuits.
R+(+) is a counter theory for R+(-) but no, it's not the same as R+ in theory... though the numbers will be the same as R+ when applied.

Wrap-up:
"R-positive," or R+ is the way the numbers are represented for rebound on the game's suspension menu. Traditional application of R+ may result in well handling vehicles that could gain a little from a R+(-) or R+(+) conversion. There are probably applications and scenarios where R+ may still be preferred. R+ values on the grid represent the settings as they occur in the game, starting at 1 and descending to 10, because this is the spectrum of suspension movement speed from fastest to slowest.

"R-positive inverted," or R+(-) is the way the numbers are inverted on the grid to find their opposing value of equilibrium by finding a matching pair on the same line. R+(-) should be paired with B+ on the same line, ie. R+(-) 3 and B+ 8 are both two clicks below the counter balance line. R+(-) is the same as R+ in this sense of the notation, it's just the order in which it appears below or above the counter balance line. So the R+(-) number on the corresponding row as the B+ value is the R+ value to be used. R+(-) are shown in parenthesis on the grid - (3) is equivalent to a R+ value of 3 on far left column, but it will appear at it's correct orientation as an opposing counter balance force.

Special Rule for Technical Courses

• if B+ = R+ than...
  • results in a highly active suspension system the closer it is set to minimum extremes
  • suspension compression and extension rates are similarly matched so track surface is absorbed across maximum variations in track surface and a potential median for speed and control is reached; optimized approach that fairs particularly well for use with front suspension setups on technically challenging courses (ie. Deep Forest Raceway, Trial Mountain, Nurburgring)
  • weight transfer occurs more quickly under this condition than for any of the alternative conditions
  • can result in snap oversteer if set to the extreme (ie. R+ 1, B+ 1) or possibly lower depending on setup; adverse effects typically minimized by using a standard B+ = R+ theory to tune the rear at values closer to counter balance center

Applications for Theories

R+ for use with general purpose setups, ideally close to the counter balance center in the range of R+/B+ setting or handling may become erratic. This can provide stable lap times that are below peak optimization across a wide variety of courses. May be combined with R+(+) on the front suspension for optimal wheel tracking.

R+(-) for high speed racing where the circuits are considerably smooth and do not present too many inconsistencies in surface variation when making a lap. Use two values closer to the counter balance center within the R+/B+ range when on a high-speed circuit with more bumps than others, more extreme values may work for the smoothest of the circuits. This setup type appears to be dependent upon the front and rear suspension being given the same values front to back for best performance and handling.

R+(+) for technical courses can provide plusher suspension with greater wheel tracking through corners and small surface imperfections. Tested applications for theory include softening the front suspension on a FR vehicle for better wheel tracking at lower values, while using higher values at the rear drive wheels for a good mix of acceleration. Above a value of 5 on the R+(+) theory grid you start to cross the threshold into standard R+ theory. A mix of R+(+) on the front and R+ on the rear may be optimal.

Edit: helps if I get the direction of the chart right... *sigh*

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Scottster

This statement gives validity to those whom believe the extension rates are not inverted.

A car that is loose coming out (corner exit oversteer) generally has too soft a setting on rear extension.

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powell145

I was speaking of corner entry oversteer, which would indicate greater weight transfer from the rear - equates to stiffer rear rebound when that is the only adjustment I made.

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Scottster

Corner entry Oversteer means, Rear shocks are too soft in rebound/extension. The looser the extension, the faster the weight transfers from that shock.

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