LSD & Tyre Wear - Robbing Peter to pay Paul...

CyKosis1973 · May 12, 2011

Seriously though, does anyone figure tyre wear into their LSD setup..??

I've read quite a bit on here about diffs, although I'll admit to a dose of TL;DR occasionally, so I may have missed any talk about this. If I have missed something, please feel free to allow this thread to slip into obscurity

I find that I'm pretty much done with a set of S3s after 6 hot laps. So I've taken to lowering my Int or Accel so that it works better with worn tyres. Over those 6 laps, the diff is working best during laps 3-4. For me, the trade off of a skitterish first few laps is worth the improved traction during the latter stages of the race. Often I'll let the hot-heads go for it during the early stages and take advantage later, once they've burnt their tyres...

{Cy}

Mudd · May 12, 2011

I believe that a slightly less aggressive LSD setting may help with tire wear, but your LSD activation is also related to your throttle and brake inputs. Couldn't you get the same longer lasting tires just by being slightly less aggressive with the gas? Then you would still have your ideal LSD settings available to use if you needed it

dr_slump · May 12, 2011

CyKosis1973
Seriously though, does anyone figure tyre wear into their LSD setup..??
{Cy}

I think 90% of all tuners don't, cause they tune in practise mode without tire wear.

Highlandor · May 12, 2011

dr_slump
I think 90% of all tuners don't, cause they tune in practise mode without tire wear.

Agree with this. There's so many tunes in this section and so few of them even mention those magic words.

Alot of them don't even specify whether they are A spec or online tunes - it's crazy. It's not just the LSD, there are other factors like toe and camber that can possibly have an impact on tyre wear too.

Someone's driving style and use of throttle are also a big factor in tyre wear, but I can be quite aggressive and 'throw' my car around a bit sometimes, plus I can have a heavy right foot, but I've learnt to set my cars up for tyre durability. The race series I organize and other series I participate in have much longer races than random online lobbys.

Our races aren't quite as 'hardcore' in race distance as some of the races organised on GT websites (that can run for 1hr and include multiple pit stops), but we still do between 20-30 miles per race and often I easily have more than 50% of my tyres left, same with 4WD cars too. I've done races which are 3 laps of the 24hr Nurburgring and have made my tyres last, but I know guys who burn theirs out in one lap of the normal 'ring.

Tuners need to start implementing tyre wear information (both general wear and whether front or rear tyres need to be looked after) into their tunes, or start specifiying whether the tunes are A spec or online.

CyKosis1973 · May 12, 2011

I'd done a huge amount to the car before I even got to the diff. I'd already mitigated as much tyre wear as I could via suspension, drivetrain and transmission. I've not added much power and I try to keep my inputs measured. Over 6 reasonably hot laps I can keep tyre wear to 15-20%, maybe more, if things get bit frenetic.

I don't know if lowering the diff means that the inside tyre takes some of the load earlier in the race, and thus relieves the outside tyre. Or whether after some wear, the tyres slip less and don't wear as quickly..??

Ultimately, I'm only pushing the inevitable to the right. Tyres will wear and performance will degrade. If anyone does have a 450-500pp build, that won't kill a set of S3s after half a dozen or so competitive laps, I'm all ears

{Cy}

Rotary Junkie · May 12, 2011

dr_slump
I think 90% of all tuners don't, cause they tune in practise mode without tire wear.

This is true, I had been doing more of my tuning online just before my PS3 died though... With tires and fuel on of course.

I can get 3 laps out of a set of S3s on the Ring tourist layout but only 5-6 at Trial Mountain (in RWD and some AWD. 2 laps for overpowered FWDs being driven flat out). Have noticed that a lighter LSD on a FWD will keep the fronts alive longer at the cost of corner exit speed, but backing off a bit with where and how hard you jump on the throttle achieves the same effect without sacrificing your speed when you need to make a push to pass etc. Same for iron diff AWD.

Edit: A lighter diff setting will make the car easier to keep in check as grip lessens and won't stress the outside rear as much, on an endurance car you want it as loose as possible and as tight as necessary to keep the inside from lighting up... Just because the other guys will try to go hard all race and eat tires.

CyKosis1973 · May 12, 2011

Highlandor
but I've learnt to set my cars up for tyre durability.

==snip==

I've done races which are 3 laps of the 24hr Nurburgring and have made my tyres last, but I know guys who burn theirs out in one lap of the normal 'ring.

👍👍 Twin Fist of Fury says double thumbs up.

Rotary Junkie
I can get 3 laps out of a set of S3s on the Ring tourist layout but only 5-6 at Trial Mountain (in RWD and some AWD. 2 laps for overpowered FWDs being driven flat out).

I'll take comfort that I've still got a decent amount of tread left after 5-6 laps of Trial Mountain then. I'm gonna give the Nordschleife a blast when I can, see if I can string some rubber out for 3 laps. That's two of you capable and able.

Rotary Junkie
on an endurance car you want it as loose as possible and as tight as necessary to keep the inside from lighting up...

I think this is how, inadvertently, I set my diff up. I then loosened a bit further, so that the inside has room to slip during the first 2 laps. Over the next two it's perfect and for the final 2 is starts to taper off, but not nearly as much as if the diff had been setup for fresh tyres.

{Cy}

chuyler1 · May 12, 2011

Are you guys running the tires into the red too much?

On SS tires I can easily do 10-15 laps at Grand Valley (full) in a FF car that pushes like crazy. For the GV endurance I was pitting every 10 laps just so I could chase down the leaders over and over again. I could have easily done 20 laps if I wanted.

As far as online physics go, we ran an endurance at GV-E reverse a few weeks ago on CS tires and everyone was making 30 laps (~35 minutes) on a single set of tires. Cars had about 500pp and could easily break loose CS tires. After that amount of time, the tires had about 40-50% tread remaining. Obviously lap times increase slightly during that 30 lap stint but not enough to warrant a pit stop. I think I started with running 1:15s and ended with 1:16s - 1:17s.

Most of the changes I make to fix tire wear are related to the suspension but I suppose you can fix some of them with the LSD. I think if you can resolve oversteer/understeer in a car so it feels good and runs fast, you will also find a setup that wears the tires evenly. Even tire wear is a sign of a good tune on most cars because it means it will continue to handle the same every lap you run. For example, if front tires wear faster than rear tires, over the course of several laps the car will begin to push as front grip diminishes.

Highlandor · May 12, 2011

chuyler1
Are you guys running the tires into the red too much?

No, I try to keep my tyres from going red in all situations i.e. braking, turning in and exiting a corner.

Doesn't always work, I have a heavy right foot and can light up the rears on powerful cars with low grip tyres, or Le Mans cars etc with racing softs. I also light up the fronts when i make a mistake under braking, or when I got one of my friends behind me and I really don't want them to beat me

Yes, very good point, you must tune your car so the front and rear tyres wear at the same or very similliar rate, uneven tyre wear will knacker a cars balance / handling and it will feel awful to drive.

The guys who I know that burn their tyres out tend to be the ones who drive as if they were still on Prologue, they 'slam' the car into the corner as fast as they car turn the wheel.

Some have managed to adjust to the new physics and tyre 'heat' factor, but others haven't.

One of my friends who was extremely fast on Prologue intermediate (all levels) came to my lobby asking about tyre wear. I gave him my setup for my R35GTR I use in a race series. He was nuking his tyres within 4 laps of Trial Mountain, I told him to brake 5-10 metres earlier on every corner, don't slam the car into the corners but turn progressivley.

He did 10 laps and only used about 20% of his tyres and he was going 1 sec a lap quicker than with his setup and driving style. He couldn't believe it, I couldn't believe that he never adjusted to the new physics, tyre wear and tyre heat. :confused:

Alot of people in random online lobbies don't seem to either, I guess that's why the races are so short as they can't make their tyres last long enough.

I know that might sound a bit arrogant, I'm not the best driver or tuner in the world, but from the first couple of days I played GT5 I could tell this was going to be a factor and had to be taken into consideration.

CyKosis1973
If anyone does have a 450-500pp build, that won't kill a set of S3s after half a dozen or so competitive laps, I'm all ears

{Cy}

What car (make and model - power and tuning specs) are you talking about??

Will27 · May 12, 2011

In my experience, a car that handles well will generally be better on its tyres because you are minimising sliding from understeer and/or oversteer.

But of course the biggest factor in tyre wear is the driver. Any driver can make a car slide or wheelspin, and eat its tyres.

In my Xanavi Nismo GTR during the Suzuka enduro, I conserved my front tyres for the first 5 laps of each stint and was 1~1.5 seconds slower than if I had just driven normally, then in the last 10 laps (of 18 lap stints)I was 2 seconds faster per lap than I would have been at that point. Smooth and Consistent

budious · May 12, 2011

I haven't tested this across a wide array of cars but I can tell you what did work for a 600HP Tokata Dome NSX '03 on the Nurburgring 4hr endurance event. I was easily getting 3 laps on my tires; I even tried to stretch to 4 laps but the car became practically undrivable on the long straightaway nearing the pits.

First I setup the car in normal A-Spec non-endurance practice mode and adjusted the suspension and lsd to minimize wheelspin as much as possible under most circumstances. If you can avoid using Race Softs for this setup then it will work out much better once you go back to endurance mode. For endurance (with the settings I had used), I found that Race Hard worked up front very well and tended to resist wear due to heavy braking forces better than Medium or Soft compounds. At the rear, once some minimal wear had set in (subjective to car) on the Hard compound tires, tire wear accelerated due to excessive wheelspin aggravating the problem. Swapping the tire up to Medium compound eliminated this problem; the additional grip of the softer compound actually extended the life of the tire by minimizing wheelspin which was the primary aggravator in tire compound loss rate. For this particular car my preferred tire setup was Race Hard (fr) / Race Medium (rr), but since there is not much use for running three quarters of lap at Nurburgring, I would swap up to Race Medium (fr) / Race Soft (rr) and get fairly similar wear factors and but better lap times.

Edit: I had to look back through my hand written notes but found the setup. It is quite old and I haven't revisited it to revise it further so it probably under optimized in some areas like the LSD and transmission, but for reference:

Takata Dome NSX '03 (657HP start to 627HP after 4hrs)
+ Chassis Reinforcement
+ Engine Tune 3
+ High RPM Turbo
* Suspension
- Ride Height -12 / -11
- Spring Rate 13.7 / 13.6
- Extension 9 / 9
- Compression 10 / 10
- Anti-Roll Bar 7 / 7
- Camber 5.0 / 4.0
- Toe 0.00 / 0.00
* Transmission @ 230MPH (defaults of Top Speed slider)
* LSD @ 5 / 5 / 5 (open)
* Brake Controller @ 5 / 5
* Aerodynamics @ 35 / 60

* Tires:

Dry: FR - Race Hard / RR - Race Medium
Dry: FR - Race Medium / RR - Race Soft
Light Rain: FR - Race Intermediate / RR - Race Medium
Heavy Rain: FR - Race Rain / RR - Race Soft

Times: Nurburgring Type V 4hr
Laps 21/22/23/24 (looking back at my notes, appears RH/RM tire mix can get 4 laps)
Lap 21 - 9:21.862 (pit exit time; swapped tires to Race Hard / Race Medium, filled tank to 100%)
Lap 22 - 8:08:269 (front tires @ ~60% / rear tires @ ~70% / fuel @ ~ 70%)
Lap 23 - 8:19:721 (front tires @ ~50% / rear tires @ ~50% / fuel @ ~ 53%)
Lap 24 - 8:24.991 (front tires @ ~30% / rear tires @ ~20% / fuel @ ~ 37%; pit entrance time)

Times: Suzuka 1000KM
I didn't take as detailed notes here. First 50 laps were dry, then it rained the last 122, which is where I got the wet tire combinations from.
Best Lap: 2.00.847

Pit Strategy - Nurburgring Type V (dry)
Tires + 10 Liters fuel every first set of 3 laps.
Tires + 100% fuel every second set of 3 laps.

Pit Strategy - Suzuka 1000KM (dry)
Tires + 10 Liters fuel every first set of 13 laps.
Tires + 100% fuel every second set of 13 laps.

TimberW · May 13, 2011

I haven't really got into LSD tuning yet, but my Garage which has a 485PP MR2 can have it's Sports Soft tyres last more than 25 laps in the Grand Valley 300km Endurance race.

It lasted way longer than most of my other tunes so far.

CyKosis1973 · May 13, 2011

chuyler1
Are you guys running the tires into the red too much?

On SS tires I can easily do 10-15 laps at Grand Valley (full) in a FF car that pushes like crazy.

No. I know how to preserve my tyres. As per my previous, after 6 hot laps around Trial Mountain, I've worn my tyres by 15-20%. So I think it's feasible that after a dozen laps I'd be down to about 50%.

But this isn't what I'm talking about, what I want to know is if anyone sets up their diff so that it's more effective after the tyres have worn some.

Highlandor
What car (make and model - power and tuning specs) are you talking about??

The current car I'm talking about is the '07 BMW M3, sub 500bhp and 1500kg. However, the car almost doesn't matter. I'm just curious to know if people factor tyre wear into their builds, particularly diffs.

budious
For this particular car my preferred tire setup was Race Hard (fr) / Race Medium (rr), but since there is not much use for running three quarters of lap at Nurburgring, I would swap up to Race Medium (fr) / Race Soft (rr) and get fairly similar wear factors and but better lap times.

Now this is something I'd forgotten all about. I used to run some cars in GT4 with different compounds front and rear. As much as I've tried to balance tyre wear front and rear, slapping a harder compound on the front might yield some results.

TimberW
I haven't really got into LSD tuning yet, but my Garage which has a 485PP MR2 can have its Sports Soft tyres last more than 25 laps in the Grand Valley 300km Endurance race.

It lasted way longer than most of my other tunes so far.

I shall take a look at that once I've got some free time. Thank you...

{Cy}

chuyler1 · May 13, 2011

CyKosis1973
But this isn't what I'm talking about, what I want to know is if anyone sets up their diff so that it's more effective after the tyres have worn some.

Well I guess my answer is no. I set up my diff and suspension for even tire wear. Once that is achieved, the car behaves the same on lap 10 as it did on lap 2. The only difference is how much grip you have in the turns.

I suppose if you wanted, you could simulate worn tires by switching to a harder compound during testing. For example, if you typically run sport soft tires, install sport medium tires and tune the car for proper balance. Get the right amount of body roll for proper grip and you will be confident that your car will behave right on sport soft tires after they have broken in.

No_OBsT33R · May 13, 2011

I use temp while tuning. My goal is grip with as equal tire temps as possible. I feel if temps are equal while power is deliverable, then wear should be equalized. Unless your heavy footed and the wear is a result of aggressive driving.

IRL temp lasers are used to analyze the tire temps for wheel angle adjustments. We have the temp indicator all the time while running a lap.

For some cars driving with no TCS is almost guaranteed to have the driven wheels breaking out periodically and wear will be more pronounced in these tires, in these cases, I would offset the compounds for the event. Dropping a compound level for increased temp control.

I haven't tested much though & I've heard that there is something off with the tire wear on offset compounds not showing the improvement in longevity as they should. I wonder if they show temp differences (longer getting to op temp, longer to overheat) or not.

I just haven't had much time for testing with all the various threads micro analyzing the game in other ways already. Hard to keep up at times, with all the theories, testing, and controversy.

Highlandor · May 13, 2011

No_OBsT33R
I just haven't had much time for testing with all the various threads micro analyzing the game in other ways already. Hard to keep up at times, with all the theories, testing, and controversy.

Yeah, agreed, there's far too much of this going on - it's a £40 video game, not a mutli thousand pound simulator used by top motorsports teams.

Keep it simple, do what works for you and your driving style i.e. how the car feels, lap or race distance times improve or tyre durability improves - then find a balance between these according to your needs, whether that be A spec, online races or time trials etc etc.

I normally find that changing tyre compound isn't necessary, adjusting either the suspension, ballast, brakes or LSD can help tyres either warm up quicker or wear less.

Some cars it's a bit of work, but usually getting all 4 wheels to heat up and wear reasonably evenly isn't a problem on alot of cars. But there are some cars that do have issues or are harder to make this happen.

budious · May 13, 2011

Tire wear rate is deceptive though because from my results, the front tire initially wears faster than the rear, then it slows and the wear level equalizes, then the rear tire wear surpasses the front tire wear level. While I would generally agree with the keep compounds the same front and rear, I don't go as far as to make it an absolute. There are certain oversteer prone cars that benefit from a front tire swap down in wear off scenarios, and comparing endurance mode to non-wear mode is apples and oranges.

Highlandor · May 13, 2011

budious
comparing endurance mode to non-wear mode is apples and oranges.

budious
While I would generally agree with the keep compounds the same front and rear, I don't go as far as to make it an absolute.

Agree to this, what I said I was referring to my experience in online race series not offline races - I don't think I made that clear, apologies.

What you've said here about endurance races on A spec I think applies, it was a long while ago I did my A spec endurance races, but I did have different compounds front and rear for a few different races - possibly Grand Valley, Nurburgring 4hr and Suzuka 1000km.

But it was along time ago and I can't remember what tyres or what the wear was - I only ever did these races once.

Hawkey_Dawg · Feb 26, 2012

Highlandor
Agree with this. There's so many tunes in this section and so few of them even mention those magic words.

Alot of them don't even specify whether they are A spec or online tunes - it's crazy. It's not just the LSD, there are other factors like toe and camber that can possibly have an impact on tyre wear too.

Someone's driving style and use of throttle are also a big factor in tyre wear, but I can be quite aggressive and 'throw' my car around a bit sometimes, plus I can have a heavy right foot, but I've learnt to set my cars up for tyre durability. The race series I organize and other series I participate in have much longer races than random online lobbys.

Our races aren't quite as 'hardcore' in race distance as some of the races organised on GT websites (that can run for 1hr and include multiple pit stops), but we still do between 20-30 miles per race and often I easily have more than 50% of my tyres left, same with 4WD cars too. I've done races which are 3 laps of the 24hr Nurburgring and have made my tyres last, but I know guys who burn theirs out in one lap of the normal 'ring.

Tuners need to start implementing tyre wear information (both general wear and whether front or rear tyres need to be looked after) into their tunes, or start specifiying whether the tunes are A spec or online.

You say you have learned to set your cars up for tire durability. Well that speaks to the information I am loking for. What do you do different when you want tire durability as opposed to fastest performance. In other words, if you have a car setup to run just as hard as you can and tire wear is not an issue, what would you change in order to make it ready for racing where tires DO matter and you want to preserve them as long as you can?

Dotini · Mar 16, 2012

Hawkey_Dawg
You say you have learned to set your cars up for tire durability. Well that speaks to the information I am loking for. What do you do different when you want tire durability as opposed to fastest performance. In other words, if you have a car setup to run just as hard as you can and tire wear is not an issue, what would you change in order to make it ready for racing where tires DO matter and you want to preserve them as long as you can?

Can moving ballast improve tire wear?

Respectfully,
Steve

Adrenaline · Mar 16, 2012

Dotini
Can moving ballast improve tire wear?

Respectfully,
Steve

Yes.

Dotini · Mar 16, 2012

Adrenaline
Yes.

Would you agree that the general idea is to move weight away from the tires that are wearing the most?

Respectfully,
Steve

Adrenaline · Mar 16, 2012

Generally, I suppose. The weighted end tends to break loose first. Therefor moving weight to a more balanced position, should promote a better balance of grip, thus less slip, thus less wear. Having said that, I don't ever use ballast in GT5, regardless of wear.

iamjajo · Mar 16, 2012

When we were racing LMP cars at 3 different tracks recently, I was running 6 decent laps at Sarthe between pit stops. I didn't set my LSD to work with worn tires, I adjusted my driving style instead. My LSD, like the rest of the car was set up to give me the best total time over my tire stint.

DaDog · Mar 17, 2012

I ain't no tuner but lately i have been setting up a few cars for online racing , and yes Tire wear is something i pay a lot of attention to ...

combined with adjusting driving style ( smoother driving ) i try to keep the rolling shell with as little friction as possible ( camber toe etc ... ) together with a well -balanced body this is allready a huge improvement , as for the lsd i haven't truely figured that one out yet but i do tend to run them on less power then they where intended for ...

it might be something between the ears and with me there is a big possabilaty on that part but i do feel that i safe tires a lot more then before .

LSD & Tyre Wear - Robbing Peter to pay Paul...

CyKosis1973

Mudd

...I wanna go fast...

dr_slump

Highlandor

CyKosis1973

Rotary Junkie

CyKosis1973

chuyler1

Highlandor

Will27

budious

TimberW

CyKosis1973

chuyler1

No_OBsT33R

Highlandor

budious

Highlandor

Hawkey_Dawg

Dotini

Adrenaline

Dotini

Adrenaline

iamjajo

DaDog

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