LSD Guide Summaries

[Basilea]

This is from the apex booklet.

Increasing the initial torque will accentuate the handling peculiarities of a vehicle's drivetrain layout. Therefore, oversteer will be increased in raer-wheel drive cars and understeer will be increased in cars with front-wheel drive. Although this improves traction in both cases, it will make turning more difficult. As such, initial torque adjustments should be made with the desired handling requirements in mind.

 

[Motor City Hami]

LSD 18/22/24

with this setting I am happy with the Accel turn in and Braking turn in

Now if I miss a braking point there is a tendency to push wide (feels like there is not enough downforce which is a short coming of F40) but can be controlled by moderating the throttle

In any case my question is:

at LSD 5/5/5 a Ferrari F40 has low manuverability (understeer)

at LSD 59/59/59 a Ferrari F40 has high manuverability (poor stability)

Why? This is opposite from the opening post

Can you clarify your question a little? Are you trying to figure out why 5/5/5 and 60/60/60 didn't work on the F40? You think the 5's and 60's were backwards?

I'm not sure why you would want to explore why two bad (mostly open or mostly locked) didn't work on the F40? Just seems to me that you'd want to focus on why 18/22/24 is working and what refinements do those settings need.

 

[Adrenaline]

at LSD 5/5/5 a Ferrari F40 has low manuverability (understeer)

at LSD 59/59/59 a Ferrari F40 has high manuverability (poor stability)

Why?

In my personal opinion...
5/5/5 is low maneuverability, because it's transferring the least amount of power to the tires, and transferring it all to the inside rear tire. It's forcing the LSD to drive the car with the inside rear.

The 60/60/60 has maneuverability, because it's probably spinning both tires really quickly, with favor to the outside rear, which helps the car rotate on partial throttle, until it looses traction where both tires light up, forcing oversteer into the car, with a very skate-y rear end.

 

[Highlandor]

What an excellent thread (in my opinion) 👍

There's been so many threads with so much discussion and disagreement about how to apply settings for LSDs in GT5, I was almost at the point of giving up on it.

This has been a huge help for me, unfortunately I've only managed to test this offline due to the PSN outage, but so far, every car I've tried is now a completely different animal thanks to this.

Even my nemisis, the Maclaren F1 '94 (stock engine / power and gearbox, custom suspension and LSD with full aero on sports soft tyres) has ben tamed - unbelievable. Never thought I'd see the day that thing is drivable like the way it is now.

From big power Le Mans cars to almost stock 'hot' cars like the RX7 etc, this guide has helped me with all.

Huge thank you to OP 👍



I'll have to wait and see how these cars handle online, but to me, even if there is an issue, I'm sure this thread will go along way to help sorting it out.

I currently use two people's definition of the settings, they both explain things a little diffferently, but by combining both it really helps me understand which direction to go with the settings and generally tune the car.

Obviously, tyre wear can't be tested offline, but to be honest, I think sorting that out will be alot easier than the past few months of going ound and round in circles over the LSD settings for different cars.

Big thank you to OP...

 

[Motor City Hami]

Thank you. Try some of my tunes. Garage link in my sig.

 

[shirakawaa]

EDIT: deleted, it looks like I got it wrong.

 

[Stotty]

I was watching my replay of the TVR speed 12 on sports hards last night for the 1st time from outside the car. Quite funny just how much smoke it will create and how long the black lines it leaves are

Anyhow, the point of posting it here is this... with close to 1000bhp and sports hard tyres, the car will spin its wheels in a straight line easily in 4th and sometimes in 5th.

I noticed on quite a few corner exits that the ouside rear wheel was the 1st one to spin.

No matter what diff is fitted (open or LSD), or what settings are applied to a LSD, this shouldn't happen should it?

 

[shirakawaa]

If under acceleration the outsite tire spins before the inside one, decrease the LSD acceleration setting. This will transfer torque to the inside tire.
If that happens at high speeds, decrease the Initial Torque setting. This will make the LSD start working at a lower torque threshold.
If this still doesn't help try setting front anti-roll bars stiffer than rear ones. For example 4/1 or 5/1 or something similar.
As for the LSD, try a 5/5/5 setting as a starting point and see what happens. I couldn't believe myself how much this is effective in taming wild cars under acceleration.

 

[nomis3613]

I noticed on quite a few corner exits that the ouside rear wheel was the 1st one to spin.

No matter what diff is fitted (open or LSD), or what settings are applied to a LSD, this shouldn't happen should it?

To be spinning the outside wheel before the inside wheel IRL, you'd need to be running a far more exotic LSD than the typical clutch-plate type.

Yeah, I've also seen the outside wheel spin when running 5 / 5 / 5, this is impossible for an open diff, so even the minimum values doesn't seem to be truly open. (don't wanna start a massive debate though- it probably only matters in extreme circumstances...like nutters trying to put down 1000bhp through Sports Hards... )

 

[Rotary Junkie]

To be spinning the outside wheel before the inside wheel IRL, you'd need to be running a far more exotic LSD than the typical clutch-plate type.

Yeah, I've also seen the outside wheel spin when running 5 / 5 / 5, this is impossible for an open diff, so even the minimum values doesn't seem to be truly open. (don't wanna start a massive debate though- it probably only matters in extreme circumstances...like nutters trying to put down 1000bhp through Sports Hards... )

But isn't it possible for the outside tire to be overstressed first?

Yes. Overstressed != locked or spinning.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Whenever I find that an adjustment in GT5 can be moved from min to max and not solve the problem, then that setting is not the the cause of the problem. Go back to something logical on the diff with a maybe lowish Accel setting and look eslewhere to solve this. What rear camber are you running? I have been able to reduce or eliminate the issue that you described above by moving drive wheel camber up or down.

 

[Stotty]

If under acceleration the outsite tire spins before the inside one, decrease the LSD acceleration setting. This will transfer torque to the inside tire.
If that happens at high speeds, decrease the Initial Torque setting. This will make the LSD start working at a lower torque threshold.
If this still doesn't help try setting front anti-roll bars stiffer than rear ones. For example 4/1 or 5/1 or something similar.
As for the LSD, try a 5/5/5 setting as a starting point and see what happens. I couldn't believe myself how much this is effective in taming wild cars under acceleration.

Hmmmm, my understanding of mechanical LSD's if that they don't/can't 'transfer power to the wheel that isn't spinning... all they can do is lock the diff and prevent the tourque being lost to a spinning unloaded wheel.

You'd need something a bit more complex - like the Ferrari 'E-Diff' or Porsche 'torque vectoring' - before a diff can actively transfer power from one wheel to another.

I agree that using a more open diff makes highly powered RWD cars on less grippy tyres more manageable... allowing a bit of slip stops them getting too sideways on the gas.

 

[nomis3613]

But isn't it possible for the outside tire to be overstressed first?

Yes. Overstressed != locked or spinning.

True. My belief is that the tyre indicators only show longitudinal "heat", but yeah I have no proof.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

True. My belief is that the tyre indicators only show longitudinal "heat", but yeah I have no proof.

I run a wheel. I crank the wheel too far, both fronts "overheat".

So it's an overall stress indicator from what I see.

 

[Stotty]

Just to clarify for my question/point...

With the TVR, it wasn't just the outside tyre turning red... it was actually spinning and leaving a black line whilst the inside tyre was not. Even if the outside tyre is more stressed (as it is carrying more weight on it during cornering load), it still shouldn't lose longtitudinal grip before the unloaded inside tyre... should it?

 

[praiano63]

Look, i've found a clear explanation about LSD. It was on a french site, i traduce the best i can, (my french is good ,not my english) if someone want to reedit it to let it more clear, perfect.


#########

Differentials

The differential is surely the setting most obscure for many people, even if we're talking about limited slip differential.

The differential allows to adjust the torque to obtain different rotational speeds between wheels right and left ,when cornering. Effectively, if we take the example of a right turn, the right wheels are on the inside of the turn and left outside, right wheels have less distance to travel than left wheel, so the differential role is to compense the path difference by acting on the rotational speeds of the wheels.

The inconvenient with a simple differential is that if one wheel loses traction (cornering over an edge), the differential then provides all the torque, the vehicle loses his grip, and oversteer or understeer.
Take the example of the corner’s edge: when the inside wheel goes on the edge, it will tend to pull, the differential read this as a loss of grip, the inner wheel will therefore get more torque and the wheel will spin ; exactly the opposite of what we want at this point, an FF will understeer and FR /MR oversteer.

With a limited slip differential it is possible to influence this action during the acceleration or deceleration, we can therefore make it more or less active.
Just need to remember that a “high value”differential will provide more torque to the wheel that is located outside of the turn and less for a”low value” differential (the car will react more like a karting).

Applications

FF cars:

Acceleration:
Highest setting possible.
Witth FF cars, acceleration when cornering occur earlier, a high value allow to reach the apex more easily and stay inside more easily (watch out edges).

Deceleration:
As low as possible to counter the natural way a FF understeer. Increase the value if the tail oversteer too easily in the deceleration phases.

FR/MR cars:

Acceleration:
Highest setting possible.
If you see that the car oversteer when going out of a corner decrease the value.

Deceleration
As low as possible, but if you notice that the car is unstable under braking when turns increase the value.

Warning:
Someone who attack passing over the edge of a corner with FF or FR/MR will have to set less extreme values.


4-wheel drive cars

It's a bit more complicated with the 4 wheel drive because the adjustment is at the front and rear so let’s talk about “situations”.

During deceleration (deceleration setting)
my car understeer: decrease the rear / or increase the front
My car oversteer: increase the rear and / or decrease the front

During acceleration (acceleration setting)
my car understeer: increase the rear and / or decrease the front
my car oversteer: decrease the rear and / or increase the front

To explain the simple way, the differential increase the ability of the car to take and keep the right trajectory.
For my part, the differential is the last thing I tune because there are many other ways to control the car that help stabilize the car in a curve to make incisive cornering entry and efficient exit of corners, after that I adjust the differential to make a fine tune.

 

[Stotty]

That's useful... particularly the 4WD stuff.

The RWD comment of highest possible is not my experience though... I find I'd rather have a lower setting with a bit of slip as winding the diff up too tight just causes exit understeer.

This statement needs a bit of clarification though...

Just need to remember that a “high value”differential will provide more torque to the wheel that is located outside of the turn and less for a”low value” differential

What it should say is provides more torque 'relative to an open diff', as a mechanical LSD can only ensure that both wheels spin at the same rate... it cannot actively transfer torque.

For me also, the diff is the last thing I play with.

 

[shirakawaa]

All I know by trial and error in GT5 is that with a low acceleration setting the inside wheel slips uncontrollably causing understeer, while with a high acceleration setting it's the outside wheel that slips, causing oversteer, and that balancing the setting with just a slight hint of inside wheel overslip under acceleration out of corners yields the best results in traction and controllability, which reflects positively on lap times.

 

[Stotty]

Of course...

If the diff locks whilst cornering under power, and both wheels are rotating at exactly the same rate, but only at the rate the inside wheel is rotating at... the outside wheel could be spinning if the inside one wasn't... but I guess the diff would need to be very tight (initial and accel) for this to happen.

I guess it would require the initial to be lowered to stop this.

Still strange though, as I'm sure I was running a pretty lose diff on the Speed 12.

 

[Highlandor]

Look, i've found a clear explanation about LSD. It was on a french site, i traduce the best i can, (my french is good ,not my english) if someone want to reedit it to let it more clear, perfect.

Was this in relation to how a LSD works in real life or in GT5 (or both)??

All I know by trial and error in GT5 is that with a low acceleration setting the inside wheel slips uncontrollably causing understeer, while with a high acceleration setting it's the outside wheel that slips, causing oversteer

I agree with this.

I use a combination of the Motor City and Adrenaline explanations (from page 1) to tune my LSD - they seem to be very good, easy to understand and makes tuning a diff (and subsequently improving a cars feel and lap time) alot easier. From these tunes I tune acceleration according to how Akira explained above.

But I always take and tune each car individually, I don't have a general rule or starting point as I use many different cars for racing - from low powered road cars to high powered race cars, each series I'm in has different regulations i.e. tyres ranging from sports medium to racing soft.

Take each car as it comes, keep it simple and balance how the car feels, laptime with race distance tyre wear (unless it's for A spec racing where, for some races, tyre wear isn't an issue).

 

[Stotty]

All I know by trial and error in GT5 is that with a low acceleration setting the inside wheel slips uncontrollably causing understeer, while with a high acceleration setting it's the outside wheel that slips, causing oversteer, and that balancing the setting with just a slight hint of inside wheel overslip under acceleration out of corners yields the best results in traction and controllability, which reflects positively on lap times.

Hmmmm... if I set the accel high I get understeer.

 

[Motor City Hami]

All I know by trial and error in GT5 is that with a low acceleration setting the inside wheel slips uncontrollably causing understeer, while with a high acceleration setting it's the outside wheel that slips, causing oversteer, and that balancing the setting with just a slight hint of inside wheel overslip under acceleration out of corners yields the best results in traction and controllability, which reflects positively on lap times.

I also think this is described in reverse. Low Accel setting usually means more turning ability and high Accel usually means understeer.

 

[Highlandor]

Hmmmm... if I set the accel high I get understeer.

I also think this is described in reverse. Low Accel setting usually means more turning ability and high Accel usually means understeer.

The point I was agreeing with is which wheel is slipping.

I didn't state this in my previous post clearly (apologies), I was referring to which wheel is slipping, not the understeer or oversteer created by the settings.

Fundamentally, though, I agree - a high acceleration setting causes more stability and subsequently, potentially, understeer. In that respect, I disagree with Akira's findings. I normally find the default LSD setting stifles a car, I virtually always decrease the acceleration as I find this changes the car and it turns more i.e. less understeer (same with deceleration too).

The part of Akira's post I do agree with is this.

I give the car full thottle coming out of a slow or tight corner to see which wheel (if any) spins.

Usually, with a high acceleration figure it's the outside wheel and usually I'm reducing the default acceleration setting before this changes to the inside wheel. Then I fine tune the setting so neither tryes spins (but this last bit is my personal preference).

Possibly it's something to do with the cars I've been tuning or the setup, but the above is what either works for me or what I agree with. Reducing the acceleration figure will stop the outside wheel spinning and also the car turns better.

 

[shirakawaa]

Thinking more about it I do find in general the car somewhat harder to steer on a straight line and long corners at sustained speeds with a high LSD acceleration setting as you note, however, on tight corner exit at full throttle (where in my opinion a LSD is needed the most) I get the opposite effect: the car (speaking of RWD ones) spins and oversteers more easily and is harder to control than with a looser setting, due to the outside driving wheel losing traction. Using a more conservative setting so that tire load under heavy acceleration in such cases is more evenly balanced among the driving wheels, reduces car instability. With a very low setting or no LSD I get understeer (at tight corner exit under full throttle).

I admit though that I haven't experimented much with racing tires. I mostly drive cars on comfort soft or sports hard tires and rarely use racing cars.

 

[Highlandor]

I admit though that I haven't experimented much with racing tires. I mostly drive cars on comfort soft or sports hard tires and rarely use racing cars.

Possibly what you mentioned here is a factor in the difference of opinion.

I tend to drive cars with quite a high tyre grip level i.e. road cars 384bhp (sports soft tyres) and (522bhp racing hard tyres), I also tend to tune the suspension so the car is fairly planted, but the rear is loosened enough for the front to turn how I want it to.

I think possibly different levels of grip through the suspension and tyres, along with possible different driving styles - might go someway to explaining slightly different experiences with this LSD setting. I tend to have a heavy right foot, so I'm sure there's an explanation in there somewhere for this.

I've seen alot of your posts, you seem to have very good knowledge and respect on this fourm, plus you tend to be quite modest and not arrogant about what you know (which to me is a good sign), so I'm definately not going to argue with you.

 

[Stotty]

... along with possible different driving styles - might go someway to explaining slightly different experiences with this LSD setting. I tend to have a heavy right foot, so I'm sure there's an explanation in there somewhere for this.

That's a very valid point 👍

I tend to be very sensitive & smooth with the throttle and I can usually find the grip/slip point on most cars and sit right on it quite consistently. I feel I only 'lean on the edges of the diff' (if that makes any sense), rather than have it engaging/disengaging through aggressive throttle applications.

As such, my settings can be quite open a lot of the time as I don't need the diff to catch my wheelspin.

Someone who's more aggressive with the throttle and wants the car to be oversteering slightly on exit will need a tighter diff than I would use for sure.

The main issue I have with tight diff settings is the understeer they create in long, constant radius bends. I'd rather lose a bit of exit speed from slower corners (or manage the throttle better), and benefit from the extra speed in the faster sections.

Different styles

 

[Highlandor]

That's a very valid point 👍

I tend to be very sensitive & smooth with the throttle and I can usually find the grip/slip point on most cars and sit right on it quite consistently. I feel I only 'lean on the edges of the diff' (if that makes any sense), rather than have it engaging/disengaging through aggressive throttle applications.

Yeah, throttle control is going to make a huge difference as you have so much more control over the application of power, therefore, the LSD settings required / used will be different - how different, not sure, but definately there would be some differences.

The better or best drivers tend to have excellent throttle control i.e. the GT Acedemy tests and the professional one car (on very low grip tyres - F40 on comforts @ Eiger?!?!?) tests on Prologue indicate this.

It gives alot more flexibility with setup options in my opinion.

Someone who's more aggressive with the throttle and wants the car to be oversteering slightly on exit will need a tighter diff than I would use for sure.

That's me, I use every 'trick' in the book to try and control the rear end coming out of tight bends under throttle on powerful cars, which is why my setups vary from other guys.

I have to utilise the LSD as much as possible (aswell as gearing, rear toe and ride height at times), it hinders in alot of ways, but also, strangely it can help on a few occasions.

It means I tend to experiment and I'm not going down the same route with settings all the time. Sometimes this helps to discover things about setups others wouldn't bother with as they simply don't need to, their throttle control does it for them.

But obviously, the 'proper' way of doing things i.e. throttle control will always be best in my opinion - as mentioned above, it means you're not limited by having to tune your car to cater for lack of throttle control / grip. You have alot more freedom to tackle any issues (understeer or tyre wear) or amend a car for differences in tracks i.e. bumpy Vs smooth tracks.

This is glaringly obvious when I drive a Group C or LMP car.....lots of smoke, long winding tyre marks on exits of tight corners, bouncing off kerbs and going sideways

Fun though...

 

[Stotty]

Sometimes this helps to discover things about setups others wouldn't bother with as they simply don't need to, their throttle control does it for them.

True 👍

I'm not the fastest, but I was somewhere around top 100 in the World in the 2010 GT Academy. I can normally get in anyone's tune and find a way to drive round any shortcomings through adapting my style, but most of the time I need to make my own tune if I'm going to reach anywhere near my potential best lap.

I tend to get my fun from extreme challenges like the Speed 12 on sports hards

 

[Highlandor]

True 👍

I'm not the fastest, but I was somewhere around top 100 in the World in the 2010 GT Academy. I can normally get in anyone's tune and find a way to drive round any shortcomings through adapting my style, but most of the time I need to make my own tune if I'm going to reach anywhere near my potential best lap.

I tend to get my fun from extreme challenges like the Speed 12 on sports hards

Hah, yeah, I saw your posts about 1000bhp on sports hard - you lightweight, why aren't you on comforts?!?!?

Just kiddin, that's pretty hardcore, my Speed 12 was left standard weight and power, I just added custom aero, LSD and suspension with sports soft tyres - that was more than enough for me. I was surprised by how well it felt to drive, considering what people were saying about it in real life.

Yeah, some people can drive 'anything', but with my tunes and driving style my friends (who like to steer with the throttle) hate my tunes and I can't drive theirs. But as mentioned above, my setups tend to be limited by lack of throttle control - so it's a difference in both style and setup.

Your sig indicates that you know how to drive, not going to dispute that, you're right though, having a car setup to your driving style is a must if someone is going to release the full potential of both car and driver.

Just a presumption, but I think this point might possibly be applicable to the LSD in GT5 - we only have one LSD, but there are so many different cars, with so many different power levels, so many different 'grip' options via both tyres and setups, plus add to this the difference in driving styles - I wonder whether just one LSD would be able to cope with such a huge amount of variables i.e. being able to release the full potential in all situations.

I know nothing about mechanics and engineering in real life, but after viewing other threads and posts on LSDs on here, there seems to be different types / styles of LSD in real life, but we only have one on GT5.

To me, that indicates an in balance - we have different tyres, suspension and turbo kits etc, but something as important as an LSD we only have one, that seems strange.

I know this is only a video game, but it just seems a bit odd that something that can have such a major impact on the way a car handles / feels / grips, possibly (this is just a presumption), might not up to the job for all situations (given the huge amount of variables), only either the majority or most situations - just a thought.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Highlander its because they use different means to achieve the same thing. The GT LSD doesn't replicate any of them in particular, rather it replicates all of them.