2.09 Tire/Suspension Model Changes

amar212

After testing the 2.09 physics in my usual GTPElitist™ environment (proper wheel, pedals, no assists, no ABS, track properties set to Real, usage of low-grade tyre compounds, full stock vehicles, etc..), I have to conclude how this update is nothing less then great.

The complete sensation of driving in online is now more believable. Ice Effect™ is almost no more, you can clearly feel the grip-thereshold on the wheel, you can partially recover from high-speed skidding by proper modulation of acceleration/straight-line-braking and my favorite part - braking distances are finally moved towards Realm of Reality™, where you need to start braking very, very, very early on Comfort tyres in order to actually manage to slow down prior to apex.

But my favorite part is this: finally you can drive super-sports cars on Comfort tyres without nasty Ice Effect™ (it was possible before, but not without serious wheelspins and such, which was challenging, but not very realistic). I tested F40, MC4-12C, Enzo and Yellowbird (all cars full stock) on Comfort Soft compound and each and every one of them drives like a charm. Of course, you have to take into account elevations of the corners, track elevations, bumps, kerbs and speed of approach while braking, but feel of driving those beasts on proper compound - without ned to go into semi-slick territory - is great.

I love the new property of more pronounced loss the FFB effect if you lose the grip (red tyres). There is no retain of control, car just goes straight until grip is back. Great.

To conclude, I really appreciate what they've done with this update. Main control now lays in your accelerator pedal where gentle modulations of pressure affects the mechanical grip much more then before. New properties of tyres (where grip levels have definitely been balanced towards more realistic) allows for normal driving of high-powered cars on compound that should be usual if driving them in stock conditions (Comfort). Grip of tyres is more realistic, they absorb lateral and longitudinal movements of the chassis more naturally, resulting with more believable sensation of driving.

I also welcome the new addition of more "loose" model of barycenter which finally allowed the suspension to lift-off the wheels from the ground.

Od course, there are many things that should be improved further (low speed physics would dramatically improve if effects of torque-rev in 1st and 2nd gears would be made less dramatic and more realistic - which would also result with actual standing start getting variable grip more dependable of acceleration modulation, influencing development of grip-property for tyres while cold), but when I look back to times of Prologue and GT5 V1.0 - this is one of the greatest physics update for this game so far IMO.

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UrieHusky

I'm not sure if I was imagining things, but after the last online handling update all of my cars started understeering violently, after changing the nose height I managed to fix most of them but the feeling was still there.

I'm just updating GT5 now so I'm really hyped to see how it's changed

I'll edit this once I've played around a bit, as if anyone cares what I think ^_^

Edit: My cars are understeering less than before, the physics feel more like how offline felt which is a massively welcome change. Now to change all of my settings again T_T

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Kino321-X

I remember that the 86/FR-S/BRZ would violently oversteer at the Foxhole whenever I would drive the Ring online. I can confirm that it has now been fixed!

The offline and online physics are much much closer now than ever before. Thank you for this surprise update PD

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Ridox2JZGTE

Wow, nice surprise PD, now I can drive cars with comfort hard tires with less worry of easily losing grip This is perfect for 400pp races.

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VBR

Well, after all afternoon testing, I have some good news to report!

The online physics are most certainly different, but not actually too much worse, let me explain. There is slightly less oversteer, only a little, & there is slightly more understeer, again only a little. Practice mode now feels exactly the same as My Lounge/online Lobby.

Also, the offline physics feel slightly different too, but in reverse. There's slightly more oversteer, & slightly less understeer. What I think they've done is to meet offline & online physics in the middle, & I have to admit to my supprise that they both feel ok now. I can put in pretty much the exact same times in Practice Mode & Online that I could before the update in only Online mode. The back end tends to kick out in 2nd gear a little aswell with ABS on 1, it used to only do this with ABS 0.

I will miss the really oversteery online physics prior to 2.09, but it's not as much as a game killer as I was fearing.

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UrieHusky

The weight transfer in my 86 with 0 ABS felt pretty spot on last night, but it was the only car I drove without ABS in that session so I can't say for sure.

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GODfreyGT5

From what I've seen from racing today, the cars' main bodys seem to carry momentum MUCH more than before. If you go too fast into a corner (was experiencing this on Trial mountain at the end of the North West straight) the back will start to slide and swing out even without throttle. The weight transfer through even a minor 's' bend is noticeable a good distance after the corner and you have to be much more careful about mixing weight transfers, crests, dips and breaking zones. Do a few grip laps around Trial mountain and see what you think. I was experiencing strong effects in an Amuse S2000 with Sports Soft tyres.

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Chrunch Houston

I raced online tonight for the first time since the update.

I liked it!

425pp, RS tires, SRF

I think the car felt more connected to the road, though some of the tracks seemed rougher.

A few of my friends were complaining that their cars were about to flip over. One of mine kept getting up on two wheels.

It was a fun night!

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ron86

So, as i see this, they dont have just changed the online to the offline physics, no, they completely changed both! I feel they changed the whole suspension thing, when you drive around the nürburgring with a car with a very hard setup you see the car heavily bouncing off the track because of the bumps. Looks definitly more realistic to me in replay mode!!

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QB1o

the only difference i noticed is that the tyre walls seem to flex which i hadn't noticed before the update, and i think tank-slappers are more likely. But, i'm not sure.
As for VBR's post, i think part one of the video looks more true to life. the other videos, all the oversteer there is coming from fancy moves like flicks, handbrake and dumping the clutch.

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analog

Just did a few nice races in the open lobby with complete strangers (yes people, that's possible) with a number of different cars in the 500/550PP range (Sports tyres) and I found the new physics to be an improvement so far but they're far less forgiving.
You really have to work for it again (using a DS3 by the way) and small mistakes have bigger consequences I found out.
Also went into another room with ABS disabled and whilst I normally can handle a lot of cars without ABS if I tinker with the brake balance, now I found it almost impossible with my DS3.
Just my first impressions so far.

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Morphisor

There is definitely way more emphasis on weight shifting. Try driving around an old, stock american car now, without aids...
Just a basic suspension upgrade makes a giant difference now, as it will reduce weight shift significantly.

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HaylRayzor

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The car now feels more "real", which I know is completely subjective.

Then I grabbed a GT-R and ran the seasonal. I was surprised to find the car had less understeer than before the patch. The understeer of 4WD cars (in offline mode) has always seemed excessive to me. Feels more right now.

I rate this as the best patch as far as physics goes.

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diegorborges

Below, I'm quoting an awesome input by Amar that looks a lot more accurate than what I felt about it (hope there's no problem using your words, Amar)

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amar212

No probs Diego, I would also welcome opinions on this and I strongly encourage discussions on this subject 👍

You could also include quotes from other members in the original thread in the OP, there are few very good observations there too.

Also, I hope how "GTELitist™" will be understood as sarcastic title, I hope how everybody have their sarcasm meter working as it should

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Maccer_42

I have to say I agree with you both, 2.09 is a big thumbs up in the right direction for me, but it seems it's getting a very mixed reception, some love it and feel its a move towards better realism, others feel the opposite. But I guess it's all subjective realy.

My personal feeling on how it's changed comes from a GTPCasual™ environment DS3 controller, ABS=1 all other aids off, primarally SH tyre with tyre wear on used on 400pp - 550pp car range.

Now I may be talking out my arse here with my termonology and how relatable all this is to real world driving but please forgive my ignorance, Im just a casual player with zero real time track experiance.

I have gone back and forth loving and hating the online mode of GT5 but the previous update before 2.09 that affected online play was a big let down for me. It always felt as if the game only relied on tyre traction alone, mechanical grip and the weight of the car seemed to have zero effect on how a car would handle, and once the tyres broke loose of traction it would happen very suddenly and there would be little I could do to regain traction other than wait for the wheelspin to stop. Which ment I had to have some very odd Suspension and LSD setups to try and maximize tyre traction alone insted of one which needed to have the weight and weight balance of the car to be a consideration.

But now with 2.09 it feels alot more natural and smooth, the tyres seem to break loose alot more progressivly and a lot less voilently, I feel as if I can finaly balance a car on the peak of cornering grip where the back end is just slightly starting to twitch out with throttle modulation and the weight of the car stopping it from snaping out into a slide sudenly, which makes it much more fun to drive, of course you can still make the car break out into a voilent slide with agressive steering and throttle imputs. Where as before it always felt even with the smoothest possible imputs I could give with the DS3 I would always be cornering with slight understeer that would snap to oversteer in a split second, or cornering with constant oversteer, it seemed impossible to find that fine line of balance inbetween them both.

But now 2.09 has finally brought me there.

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Maccer_42

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But now with 2.09 it feels alot more natural and smooth, the tyres seem to break loose alot more progressivly and a lot less voilently, I feel as if I can finaly balance a car on the peak of cornering grip where the back end is just slightly starting to twitch out with throttle modulation and the weight of the car stopping it from snaping out into a slide sudenly, which makes it much more fun to drive, of course you can still make the car break out into a voilent slide with agressive steering and throttle imputs. Where as before it always felt even with the smoothest possible imputs I could give with the DS3 I would always be cornering with slight understeer that would snap to oversteer in a split second, or cornering with constant oversteer, it seemed impossible to find that fine line of balance inbetween them both.

But now 2.09 has finally brought me there.

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Denilson

These opinions is only related to online (I only race offline a little now and then to earn some credits if needed).

I think the 2,09 physics are a great step forward.
Pre 2,08, it was possible to enter corners pretty much in any way. If you went in too fast, it could always be corrected without much time lost.

Now, it feels much more real.
From my years as a track day fanatic I've learnt the bases of circuit racing thru experiance and talking to instructors.
What it all comes down to irl is that the entire corner need to be attacked correctly from the turn-in to the exit.
If you go in too fast, you'll have to wait with the throttle until you've reduced the speed enough to get the nose pointing in the right direction.
It's not possible to turn your car with throttle input once you've entered a corner too fast irl in contradiction to how the pre 2,09 physics was in GT5.
Irl, you can turn the car to som extent with the throttle, yes. But you can never make up for an entry that's too aggressive.

The fastest way in GT5 pre 2,09 was to enter the turn "too" fast, and then forcing the car to rotate with the throttle.
That's impossible irl, and it's now (not impossible perhaps) much harder to execute a move like that.
I can feel how the front "plows" if I enter too fast now, just like irl. 👍

When I started doing track days, I was driving too aggressive without knowing it. Something did'nt feel right, but I could'nt point my finger at it.
The car felt understeery all the time, and since the car I drove was a rear wheel drive, high bhp car, that did'nt seem right.
And one day, I was lucky to get an instructor in my car for some advices.
His verdict was:
"You have good car control, good lines, use the right gears and balance the throttle well. But, you're useless when it comes to turn-in and speed management.
This car is a perfect example of a car that's oversteery, yet, you make it understeer like a bus.
You need to reduce your speed entering the corner until you feel that the car you're driving rotates. If it rotates, it's in balance with how the car naturally want to behave, but up until now, you've fought your car instead of letting it thru the corner at it's fullest potential.
You have to make it "flow". Don't fight it."

And those words made me think.. Later the same day, I had reduced my PB with almost 2 seconds.
What was so noticeable was how early I could start accelerating.
Cause up to this point, I had spent too much time trying to get the nose pointing in the right direction, rather than accelerating out of the corner.
And this is exactly how I feel about the physics with 2,09.
Manage your entry speed, flow, throttle.
The momentum out of corners is now something to concider already at corner entry, in contradiction to how it was pre 2,09.

As for the details in GT5 when it comes to tuning, I know feel that I can actually use the LSD and brake bias to effect my cars behaviour to a whole other level than before.
Pre 2,09 it was all about the ride hight and toe pretty much (at least for me), but now, I feel that the car respond much better to tuning.
And the best part is that no matter how much I tune, I can't get the car to oversteer like it did pre 2,09, cause the physics won't let me, just like irl. 👍

Love 2,09

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Denilson

What it all comes down to irl is that the entire corner need to be attacked correctly from the turn-in to the exit.
If you go in too fast, you'll have to wait with the throttle until you've reduced the speed enough to get the nose pointing in the right direction.
It's not possible to turn your car with throttle input once you've entered a corner too fast irl in contradiction to how the pre 2,09 physics was in GT5.
Irl, you can turn the car to som extent with the throttle, yes. But you can never make up for an entry that's too aggressive.

The fastest way in GT5 pre 2,09 was to enter the turn "too" fast, and then forcing the car to rotate with the throttle.
That's impossible irl, and it's now (not impossible perhaps) much harder to execute a move like that.
I can feel how the front "plows" if I enter too fast now, just like irl. 👍

You need to reduce your speed entering the corner until you feel that the car you're driving rotates. If it rotates, it's in balance with how the car naturally want to behave, but up until now, you've fought your car instead of letting it thru the corner at it's fullest potential.
You have to make it "flow". Don't fight it."

And this is exactly how I feel about the physics with 2,09.
Manage your entry speed, flow, throttle.
The momentum out of corners is now something to concider already at corner entry, in contradiction to how it was pre 2,09.

As for the details in GT5 when it comes to tuning, I know feel that I can actually use the LSD and brake bias to effect my cars behaviour to a whole other level than before.

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Johnnypenso

Agreed. As you describe the proper way to drive, that's how I have been trying to drive with GT5 since the beginning but it just never felt right other than with a handful of cars and I never had much luck tuning cars to make them feel right. I could make them fast, but they still didn't feel right. It all seems to be coming together now. In many of the cars I've drivin in the last couple of nights, I seem to have much more control over how the car sets up into the corner, with and without ABS. Small adjustments to brake balance seem to make a bigger difference. I am using all my old tunes so far and found them a little too understeery but adding some negative toe to the rear seems to be doing wonders for a lot of them.

It's too bad PD wasn't able to make the game feel this way from the beginning...things could be quite different now.

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MrGrado

2.09: They changed online to be just like offline. It's just as they said, end of story.

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MrGrado

2.09: They changed online to be just like offline. It's just as they said, end of story.

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Ridox2JZGTE

Have anyone tried the stock RUF CTR Yellowbird and Cizeta V16T both online + offline with SH tires and CS/CM tires ? Are there any significant difference in how they drive ? Lift off oversteer ?

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Ridox2JZGTE

Have anyone tried the stock RUF CTR Yellowbird and Cizeta V16T both online + offline with SH tires and CS/CM tires ? Are there any significant difference in how they drive ? Lift off oversteer ?

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Denilson

These opinions is only related to online (I only race offline a little now and then to earn some credits if needed).

I think the 2,09 physics are a great step forward.
Pre 2,08, it was possible to enter corners pretty much in any way. If you went in too fast, it could always be corrected without much time lost.

Now, it feels much more real.
From my years as a track day fanatic I've learnt the bases of circuit racing thru experiance and talking to instructors.
What it all comes down to irl is that the entire corner need to be attacked correctly from the turn-in to the exit.
If you go in too fast, you'll have to wait with the throttle until you've reduced the speed enough to get the nose pointing in the right direction.
It's not possible to turn your car with throttle input once you've entered a corner too fast irl in contradiction to how the pre 2,09 physics was in GT5.
Irl, you can turn the car to som extent with the throttle, yes. But you can never make up for an entry that's too aggressive.

The fastest way in GT5 pre 2,09 was to enter the turn "too" fast, and then forcing the car to rotate with the throttle.
That's impossible irl, and it's now (not impossible perhaps) much harder to execute a move like that.
I can feel how the front "plows" if I enter too fast now, just like irl. 👍

When I started doing track days, I was driving too aggressive without knowing it. Something did'nt feel right, but I could'nt point my finger at it.
The car felt understeery all the time, and since the car I drove was a rear wheel drive, high bhp car, that did'nt seem right.
And one day, I was lucky to get an instructor in my car for some advices.
His verdict was:
"You have good car control, good lines, use the right gears and balance the throttle well. But, you're useless when it comes to turn-in and speed management.
This car is a perfect example of a car that's oversteery, yet, you make it understeer like a bus.
You need to reduce your speed entering the corner until you feel that the car you're driving rotates. If it rotates, it's in balance with how the car naturally want to behave, but up until now, you've fought your car instead of letting it thru the corner at it's fullest potential.
You have to make it "flow". Don't fight it."

And those words made me think.. Later the same day, I had reduced my PB with almost 2 seconds.
What was so noticeable was how early I could start accelerating.
Cause up to this point, I had spent too much time trying to get the nose pointing in the right direction, rather than accelerating out of the corner.
And this is exactly how I feel about the physics with 2,09.
Manage your entry speed, flow, throttle.
The momentum out of corners is now something to concider already at corner entry, in contradiction to how it was pre 2,09.

As for the details in GT5 when it comes to tuning, I know feel that I can actually use the LSD and brake bias to effect my cars behaviour to a whole other level than before.
Pre 2,09 it was all about the ride hight and toe pretty much (at least for me), but now, I feel that the car respond much better to tuning.
And the best part is that no matter how much I tune, I can't get the car to oversteer like it did pre 2,09, cause the physics won't let me, just like irl. 👍

Love 2,09

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Cote Dazur

Just did an interesting compairison with a Lancia Stratos, stock, CM, ABS0, 4/1, clutch and gate shifter. Deep Forest reverse, grip real, tyre wear on offline and normal online.

The Startos offline is difficult to drive, the rear always tries to go around the car, very little warning when it happens. Before 2.09 it was worst Online.

Now, Online, the Startos behave much more natural, more like you would expect a Startos to behave, you still have to be very carefull, but you have a chance to react before it gets out of control.

Try it, it is fun, easier to feel the difference with a car that is demanding and on tyres that give feedback.

I was more constant in my lap time online as well, always a good sign of better feedback in my book. A little faster as well.

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ncrthree

Ok, I gave the Yellowbird a test drive on CS tires at the Ring. Got inspired watching that grainy video that's so awesome. Fully stock ABS O BB4/1 no other aids real grip settings in both my lounge and offline practice mode. Tire wear on. Cockpit view. I'm an ABS 0 Newb too.

I was expecting the worse with basically no seat time in the Bird and the car's reputation. Not to mention I'm no Ring Meister for sure. I tried it a long time ago and couldn't control it then lost interest.

Took me a bit to get a clean lap or 2 but there was minimal lift off snap oversteer. Enough for a novice Yellowbird driver like myself to stay on track while trail and threshold braking. Main issue was just keeping a conservative throttle approach. I even let off the throttle completely in the Carousel and it stayed on course while coasting. Most importantly it felt identical in my lounge and offline practice mode. Amazing.

Anyway, I've found another car to get obsessed with. Great fun! Both clean laps I did on and offline were within a tenth of a second of each other. What was cool was they were both almost the identical time from the video! I'm sure that's really slow for the Ring Meisters but I was thrilled, lol. Give it a drive if you haven't before.

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Ridox2JZGTE

Looks like the new 2.09 is better both online and offline, that means PD is making changes in the right direction,



If something that was damn hard to control and now can be driven with fun, that is one hell of a great news. I have a tune for Yellowbird on 2.08 which makes it a bit easier to drive, I wonder how that tune will work on 2.09 ... by the way what grainy video you are referring to ?

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