2.09 Tire/Suspension Model Changes

[Lock2Lock]

Problem is I can't do it offline. Try it for yourself, and you'll see. Rollover physics are still weird.

Yes you can. Trust me. There isn't that restriction like online has offline. Go to practice mode and do this...



Fully mod your VW BUS and put this setup on it (my Endo aka stoppie tune)

Put Skid Recovery Force On (reason just like wheelies you have to have it on).
Go to a flat track.
Put ABS on 1
brake balance on
10 in the front
0 in the rear

Hit about 85 MPH then slam on the brakes which will end up like my profile picture

 

[Scaff]

2.09 is most certainly a step in the right direction for me, with some clear changes to the suspension model, I'm however a lot less convinced that anything major has changed in the tyre model.

Starting with that tyre model, the old issues are still more than present, with hook up from standstill or low speed still totally inaccurate and nothing at all appears to have changed in how self aligning torque is dealt with. Its a shame but the work involved in overhauling the tyre model would not make sense for a mid-life update for GT5, all we can hope for is that they are putting that work in for GT6 (I would of course love to be wrong in this and have them fix it for a future GT5 update).

However when it comes to suspension modeling things have certainly changed and for the better. First off default damper setting are softer and changes to load transfer much smoother, the behavior of the suspension across differing types also appears to better represent the suspension type as well. As a result the cars now behave much more realistically up to the limit (at and after which the tyre model throws its spanners in the works) and the changes do make it easier to judge those limits when they are approaching.

Interestingly PD also seem to have started to address one of my personal peeves with FFB, in that they are moving more of the effects of primary ride to the visual side of things (when in cockpit view) and reducing its effect on the FFB. Its not enough for me still, but it is a significant step in the right direction.

The main upshot however is that I know actually find driving the cars far more enjoyable that pre 2.09, in particular testing with the Caterham Fireblade (the suspension on which was always nasty in the past, mainly due to too firm damper settings as a default and the suspension model issues) is now great fun to drive on comfort tyres.

Note - All the above testing was done with zero aids, including ABS which still has the hidden brake force distribution that invalidates any and all brake bias settings.

 

[diegorborges]

Great post Scaff 👍

Don't you think that the tire model itself has not changed at all or just changed a little bit? I mean, I'm not a super expert neither have the proper full knowledge about tire properties, but I really can feel the tires behaving more progressive when you lose/gain traction. (as expected) I can feel a lot more what's happening with the tires and take the car on the limit without drifting/spinning, which was very hard with specialy MR cars before 2.09. Overall, my favorite word to define this is "gradual"

So you can say that this is happening because of the suspension model changes alone, nothing to do with tires?

Just asking, because I like to read detailed opinions on this subject by those that are experienced enough and have proper setups.

Of course, in one thing I agree completely with you: low speed tire model still needs improvement, being one simple issue the fact that you can't lose traction changing from first to second gear easily on most powerful cars and I can say that this can happen even in low powered cars in real life. That little "screeeetch" we hear by the brief lose of traction caused by power being applied to the tires just before you disengage the clutch.

Again, "average knowledge" here, just learning a lot! (and still playing with a DS3)

 

[Spagetti69]

Go offline. Online you can't.

Wrong. Motortrend Mitch has said he has rolled a few times online. Something wrong here.

 

[Scaff]

Great post Scaff 👍

Don't you think that the tire model itself has not changed at all or just changed a little bit? I mean, I'm not a super expert neither have the proper full knowledge about tire properties, but I really can feel the tires behaving more progressive when you lose/gain traction. (as expected) I can feel a lot more what's happening with the tires and take the car on the limit without drifting/spinning, which was very hard with specialy MR cars before 2.09. Overall, my favorite word to define this is "gradual"

So you can say that this is happening because of the suspension model changes alone, nothing to do with tires?

Just asking, because I like to read detailed opinions on this subject by those that are experienced enough and have proper setups.

Of course, in one thing I agree completely with you: low speed tire model still needs improvement, being one simple issue the fact that you can't lose traction changing from first to second gear easily on most powerful cars and I can say that this can happen even in low powered cars in real life. That little "screeeetch" we hear by the brief lose of traction caused by power being applied to the tires just before you disengage the clutch.

Again, "average knowledge" here, just learning a lot! (and still playing with a DS3)

From what I have come across so far it certainly seems as if the majority (if not all) the changes have been as a result of revisions to the suspension model.

Certainly the changes would be enough to account for the improved progression below the limit of grip that I've come across, however too many of the tyre issues remain for me to see any significant work has been done with the tyre model.

The work that has been done does however make me want to actually spend time with GT5 again, which is far from faint praise.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Wrong. Motortrend Mitch has said he has rolled a few times online. Something wrong here.

Yeah i know. But i mean rolling like the offline. Not as easy. By the way did that ever get confirmed?

 

[fifomaniak]

I don't want to do wheelies/stoppies. I want to put the car on its side or roof. And I'm pretty sure if not some weird limitations I'd be able to do that. I'm taking a Samba Bus cause it's suspension is pretty soft, car is high and has high center of gravity and with Racing Soft tires it should easily flip. But it doesn't. I'm doing scandinavian flick, sudden changes of direction but it just won't flip over. It's getting on two wheels, making huge tilts, but it always comes back onto its four wheels.

 

[diegorborges]

I don't want to do wheelies/stoppies. I want to put the car on its side or roof. And I'm pretty sure if not some weird limitations I'd be able to do that. I'm taking a Samba Bus cause it's suspension is pretty soft, car is high and has high center of gravity and with Racing Soft tires it should easily flip. But it doesn't. I'm doing scandinavian flick, sudden changes of direction but it just won't flip over. It's getting on two wheels, making huge tilts, but it always comes back onto its four wheels.

I agree with you. IT IS IMPORTANT.

I usually don't do this but...

RANT
Honestly, honorable PD programmers have made an effort to make the cars NOT rollover. They actually spent time writting that lines of code.

We already know that the car underparts are all black and mostly not modeled. Yamauchi-san, we know that you like all things perfect but it's been like that for years and I don't care if it's all black, just let me do a barrel roll or get involved in a huge accident when someone spin and crash somewhere at the nordschleife. Of course all of us want to perfect our driving skills and not roll over, but if that's what happens in the real world, let that fear of rolling over afraid me. When we know that the game won't let us roll over easily that's a part of the realism and "fear" of racing that's been removed from our experiences!
/RANT

 

[Scaff]

I agree with you. IT IS IMPORTANT.

I usually don't do this but...

RANT
Honestly, honorable PD programmers have made an effort to make the cars NOT rollover. They actually spent time writting that lines of code.

We already know that the car underparts are all black and mostly not modeled. Yamauchi-san, we know that you like all things perfect but it's been like that for years and I don't care if it's all black, just let me do a barrel roll or get involved in a huge accident when someone spin and crash somewhere at the nordschleife. Of course all of us want to perfect our driving skills and not roll over, but if that's what happens in the real world, let that fear of rolling over afraid me. When we know that the game won't let us roll over easily that's a part of the realism and "fear" of racing that's been removed from our experiences!
/RANT

Oh I quite agree in regard to roll-over, I've not come across a single reason why we shouldn't be able to do it yet and it does make a difference.

I lost an on-line race in FM4 due to having the car's (a Micra R - RWD 2.0 turbo Micra conversion) suspension set too stiff and hitting a high curb at the wrong time. First too last in a short space of time, but it never felt wrong, I screwed up with both the set-up and the driving and deserved it. Oddly had I managed to avoid loosing it as the result of a 'hand of god' factor and gone on to win I would have felt more than a little wrong about it.

It will be interesting to see what then end result of the 'can you roll it' online is, but by the sounds of things its far more difficult than it should be. Fingers crossed PD see sense and also sort this soon.

 

[Spagetti69]

By the way did that ever get confirmed?

I can only go by what he stated. Can't remember which thread but he claimed to have rolled a few times.

Normally on GTPlanet something that significant after being absent for 2 years would get a vid.

I have not seen anything myself or read of any other person rolling.

 

[Spagetti69]

I did it as well!!
Going down the hill at the end of the Nurburgring straight, caught the grass, went sideways, and caught grip on pavement whilst still going sideways, rolled twice!

Bang. Here's the quote in this very thread.

 

[fifomaniak]

Hmm, that's interesting. We obviously have a trophy in GT5 for rolling the car over. I did it long time ago using the slope at the end of Trial Mountain Circuit. And I didn't bother much about rollover since then until now when a lot of people say that suspension physics has been changed and online and offline physics have been equaled. Maybe that's the case.

I remember seeing a video before the release of GT5 with some Japanese girls playing GT5 in old Fiat 500. One of them rolled it by turning the wheel violently at quite slow speed (500 was probably stock), car just flipped. Seemed natural. Now I'm trying to redo this, but even with unbelievably sticky RS tires it doesn't want to go on two wheels, it understeers or oversteers, but doesn't even start to flip.

I don't know how Fiats 500 behave, but in Poland Fiat 126 were very popular back then and I remember seeing many videos on YouTube where this little Fiat would just roll over instantly by turning too sharp into a corner while going quite fast. Guess the old 500 should behave about the same.

Edit: Found this video below. From June this year, so before this last patch. Beetle seems to flip easily, I have to try it but I don't really think that'll be possible now. Theoretically VW T1 should flip even easier.



Edit2: Something came to my mind. Maybe Beetle will rollover, maybe there is weird coding and some cars can flip while others can't. Like if some cars have more extensive damage than the others, maybe that's the case here.

 

[diegorborges]

fifomaniak, I tried to rollover a VW T1 for hours and couldn't do it, even in the trial mountain slope. Gotta try it again with ORPHANTHIRTY7 setting.

And a question just came on my head now... may chassis stiffness/maintenace have anything to do with "rolloverability"?

Nah, dreaming too much.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I have a dumb question. Are you guys trying to roll over on or off line?

 

[fifomaniak]

Most stupid of explanations comes true - flipping Beetle is a piece of cake. T1 seems to have a magnet or a lot of concrete in its floor.