FITT Problem Solving - Red Outside Front Tire

Motor City Hami

Motor City Hami

4,803
United States
Dearborn, MI
MotorCtyHamilton
Calling on my fellow GTP tuners and looking to engage in a few problem solving threads. In the past four months we have had some great back and forth discussions about tuning. Unfortunately, the good parts of these conversations are burried within threads where the title may not exactly match the discussion.

A question was asked in my tuning garage today and it sparked an idea. I thought that the question was big enough that the person asking deserved more than just my opinion on the subject. I think we should do a series of "problem solving" threads where we can discuss one issue at a time. The hope is that we can get away from arguing over what an individual setting does and get to that more rich discussion of how you would approach solving a handling problem. Any debate and testing would be around what one person tried vs. another, not which settings are backword or not.

I was thinking that all of these could be linked within the FITT thread. If you think this should not live under the FITT name I can edit. It just seems that FITT are the most active tuners and seems like we should be the ones bringing this type of discussion to the GTP tuning forums.

So, the question for this thread is:

"How do you solve the condition of turning the outside front tire red?"
 
Well this is awkward. I've no idea. :lol:

I did think it had something to do with the roll bars and stiffening them to stop the weight transfer going all onto the outside front during turning but I haven't tested it.
 
trackripper123
Well this is awkward. I've no idea. :lol:

I did think it had something to do with the roll bars and stiffening them to stop the weight transfer going all onto the outside front during turning but I haven't tested it.
Click to expand...

This makes sense but i garantee you this is not how it works in the game. Ive tried rollbars, springs, dampers and they do nada for that particular problem. I was once able to reduce it with extreme negative front toe though. Ill b curious to hear from others.
 
Must say I've never felt this to be a huge issue. While you want to minimize this as much as possible, the outside front tire will be experiencing the greatest loads during cornering. Just because the tire goes red and possibly smokes isn't necessarily an indication that it has lost all grip. Some of my best handling cars will show the red tire under heavy cornering.
Now if the car tends to start understeering when the outside front goes red then you do need to be concerned with your suspension tune but if the car is handling very well and maintaining its lines through corners I don't feel it to be a major concern.

For me getting a balance between the camber, spring rates, dampers and ARBs seems to work the best for maximizing grip and minimizing the front going red.
 
I guess my question is, are we talking about a FF/FR/RR/4WD car? Each has a level of serverity. Some more then others.
 
outside of lowering the vehicle, you can't alter the amount of weight transfer with the tools available to us in the game, only control the rate at which it happens.
 
Original request:
Hey Hami, on that note, I've been tuning 2 cars at once...kinda stupid I know, but both are turning the outside front tire red when braking. Just wondering how you got on with that. Would love to eliminate it without having to add weight to the rear. There's other issues with them as well, but I'm hoping I can sort those out.

Adrenaline's response:
What's your brake balance?
Can you take some off the front and move more to the rear?

My take on this specific issue:
I agree with Adrenaline for starters. Outside red tire when braking/corner entry can be solved a bit by brake balance (change from 5/5 to 4/6 or 4/7), but sometimes it can't do it all. Both front tires red under braking is definately related to brake balance - getting front wheel lock up. Only the outside front wheel and another adjustment will be needed. You need to find more front grip at turn in.

Here is what I would try:
1. Optimize front camber meaning find the sweet spot. I have seen this fix minor versions of this problem. Try 5 clicks higher then 5 clicks lower from where you are currently.
2. Remove some rear toe and maybe even remove some front toe.
3. Anti-roll bars, lowering front and raising rear.
4. Springs and dampers with first harder front springs and more damper split (ext 10/comp 5) to set the nose quickly. If more is needed, lower rear springs and even out dampers (ext 3/comp 3)

On some cars I find that I am at the limits of adjustments for adding front grip/removing rear or that fixing the red tire issue in one corner gave the car too much oversteer in another section of the track. Sometimes I have to live with a little bit of glowing red front tire to keep the tune fast everywhere else.

My '89 Miata tune for the 380PP seasonal is an interesting tune. It had the red outside front tire issue and I was able to get it to a balance of both outside tires turning red if I overcooked a corner. I think that with that tune I am at the limits of comfort soft tire grip, but with a perfectly balanced tune. To be fast, it is now easy to see the limit when the outside tires start to turn a little red.
 
Last edited:
So, outside front tire turning red under brakes?

Increase front ride height, or increase overall ride height. Decrease front bound.
 
Last edited:
MrGrado
So, outside front tire turning red under brakes?

Increase front ride height, or increase overall ride height. Decrease front bound.
Click to expand...

This is why I wanted to do this thread. I would not have thought to test that, but now I will.
 
to me either tire warming up indicates that i have a geometry problem. Toe and camber will be where to fix the problem. Once you have those dialed in the only time a tire will light up is when it locks up, otherwise both tires will heat evenly even under extreme amounts of lock applied.
 
MTLclllutch
to me either tire warming up indicates that i have a geometry problem. Toe and camber will be where to fix the problem. Once you have those dialed in the only time a tire will light up is when it locks up, otherwise both tires will heat evenly even under extreme amounts of lock applied.
Click to expand...
:

How do you dial it in? That would be more useful. Which direction do you go on camber and toe?
 
from what i have experienced there is no rule set in stone, it just depends on what pd decided to do with it to make it feel different from the other vehicles imo. Some need positive some need negative to acheive the same result
 
I have plenty of cars that have this problem, or perhaps I should say, I have this problem (the cars are only doing what I tell them to!). I have one I'm currently working on, a reworking of my submission for CSL's 450PP Ring Shootout, that I have improved immeasureably, but it is still prone to overheating the outside front tyre whilst braking and turning.

It is possible to eliminate the problem by adjusting my racing line and braking points, but I believe doing so is ultimately slower than being able to really throw the car into corners. Besides, I've driven cars built by others that can be driven hard without this problem.

Once I've finished work, I'll try the suggestions above and see what helps. I'll happily post the details of the car as it is, if anyone else wants to try things out in tandem with me. The Shootout is nearing it's end now, so I'll likely be able to take that car off share, apply my updated build and then put it back on share...

{Cy}
 
See below for the changes that I've made to my car, I'll carry on working at it, as it's still not entirely there.

For the record, the thing that made the greastest difference was camber. It would appear I was using too much camber, both front and rear.

I think I've still got my 450PP Ring Shootout Solstice on share, if you're on my FR list and fancy giving it a whirl. Be sure to add another 10kg over the rear wheels and reduce engine limiting accordingly...

solsticel.png


{Cy}

PS - I'll check when I get home tonight ,I've got a feeling that the last entry on the above might not be the last thing I did to the car. If you do give the car a whizz, feel free to try in on Sports Medium tyres too, as it's now technically a 500PP car...
 
MTLclllutch
from what i have experienced there is no rule set in stone, it just depends on what pd decided to do with it to make it feel different from the other vehicles imo. Some need positive some need negative to acheive the same result
Click to expand...
Yahtzee:idea:
 
Thought I'd share something I found today. Tuning a Supra RZ at 500PP, car had a 60-40 weight distribution. Lots of outside red tyre, no matter what I did to the suspension.

Added ballast to rear to make the weight distribution 52-48, pretty much no outside red tyre anymore. Food for thought?
 
Correct Ripper, I usually try to fix this problem with weight balance, then tweak it with ride height, spring rate, toe and ARB. I very seldom use lots of camber and toe so I try everything else before I go to those two.
 
Well it allows me to get on the throttle faster so I guess it would make the lap faster and in the case of weight balance, moving the weight to the drive tires always helped me in balancing the car. Adding up all the fractions from each corner would help lap times yes.
 
:tup:TIRE TURN RED AND THE CULPRIT?
MANY FACTORS CAN BE AVOIDED.OR ADJUSTED USUALLY USE COMMON SENSE.
1st SHOCK ABSORBERS EXTENSION (more front and rear more = higher manobralidad)
2nd (COMPRESSION DAMPERS (less front and rear less = higher corrugated track flu less tire wear)
3rd ANTI ROLL BARS (front and rear less = higher grip tire uses less the car gets predictable).
4th TOE ANGLE = {(minus front = better curve input) and (more back improves manobralidade)}
Note; These are the methods that I use when the tire turn red if not works out mute until my turn. this and my opening.
 
Ballast is a good suggestion. I did use ballast in recent FITT competitions and it did help the situation some. To me, it still seems that there are more than one way to help the problem, but not all of them work for all situations. Overall, outside red front tire seems to indicate a car with too much rear grip and not enough front.

On my Audi for the FITT Wagon Challenge, I was tried all of the tricks mentioned below. Using a combination of the six listed, I was able to take this car from red outside front tire to both outside tires turning red when pushing to the max. That told me, heavy car with perfect front/rear balance.

Here is what I would try:
1. Optimize front camber meaning find the sweet spot. I have seen this fix minor versions of this problem. Try 5 clicks higher then 5 clicks lower from where you are currently.
2. Remove some rear toe and maybe even remove some front toe.
3. Anti-roll bars, lowering front and raising rear.
4. Springs and dampers with first harder front springs and more damper split (ext 10/comp 5) to set the nose quickly. If more is needed, lower rear springs and even out dampers (ext 3/comp 3)
5. Brake balance. Lower front than rear.
6. Ballast.
 

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