What (If Anything) Can PD Learn from Forza in Creating the Next GT?

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JohnBM01

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GTPlanet, here's a thread I never thought I'd come up with. Being the analytical type as I am, sometimes to outdo your competition, you may have to play your rival's game. If ever there was a heated competition in this, I call "The Year of the Racing Game," it has to be the heated rivalry between Gran Turismo 4 on the PS2, and Forza Motorsport on the XBOX. A lesson you learn in life is that if you lose to a better opponent, or perhaps to lesser opponent, you can always retrace your steps and build to make things better next time around. At one point, I said GT4 would blow away Forza in several respects. Of course, we've had more than a 5,000+ post thread with GT fans defending GT4 and XBOX-heads giving the nod to Forza. Nowadays, I've said that GT4 and Forza are really two equal competitors, with both sides offering something the other doesn't. This is all give-or-take some features done better or worse than the other side. Assuming you've played both games, either as demos or the full game, here is your chance to sound off. What, if anything, can PD learn from Forza? Now before we start, there are a few responses that probably won't be accepted. Such responses that won't count include the following: (1) Ferrari, Porsche, and any other exotic (2) "online play for freaking once!", (3) actually include damage, etc.

I [still] don't own an XBOX. I'm not convinced in getting one, if only to play Forza. In my thread called "Sound Off! How to Silence the Critics," I discussed things about what it's going to take for the next GT to become about as perfect as PD can get and with as few complaints as possible. I love Gran Turismo and have respect for Forza. Of course, I love to share my love of GT with others, the fact of the matter is that I still love Gran Turismo and likely wouldn't trade a GT game for some other sim racing game. Just because I love a certain game doesn't mean that I fail to take into account the flaws of the game I love. So I never TRULY have an unconditional love of playing a certain racing game. I haven't played through Forza, so I am not at fault to say what I have to about maybe what the Gran Turismo series can learn from Forza, if anything.

If you wish to continue, respond now to this topic.
 
they should make it so the AI cars actually know you're there. I hate it when im tryingto drive smoothly and then a viper just comes and drives into the back of me and smacks me into the wall, or when im driving round a slow corner and they just continuously nudge the back corner of your car until you spin out. They should at least make it so the AI can get 10 second penalties too.
 
answering from the thread title: A lot

Damage, they know they can do it....
Cars, Not too many, the Real cars as it were...
Paint shop, i seen so many awsome designs going round in the forums, imagine it on GT4 with more depth and less rice options.
 
Well first off all I know Ferrari and Porsche will not make it, sadly. Maybe in the future. Damage would be nice at least to the point of Project Gotham Racing (one of the worst racing games ever). PD will have to make customization an option to compete. Not just wheels and wings, but paint, decals, body kits and no I don't mean like in NFSU2, actually racing kits and roll cages. Make the car wash useful, after a rally, I want my STi to be dirty, haha. I would love to have info on the car, at least the basics, like 0-60 times, 1/4 mile, top speed, along with weight but in lbs for American version.

I don't have XBox either and I plan not to get it, if I do, I will have one game, Forza 2 or 1. Forza is actually a good game and I hate Microsoft and I'm a hardcore Sony and GT fanboy. But I enjoyed playing Forza and customizing. I played a demo too, but it seemed very easy. It was a Laguna Seca course and I dominated, so if you're good at GT, you'd own at that game. Forza is more arcade like, but you gotta remember, wasn't GT1 like that. If you say no, ok. I can hardly remember, haha.

Some small things that would be nice is better engine sounds, tire squeals/marks, reverse lights, horn?, Don't know if race cars have that. Working wipers for the rain, going to far I know, but you must admit, it'd be neat.
 
Ferrari and Porsche could make GT5, it's all down to Sony coughing up the bucks. Thats why they didn't appear in GT4.

Damage, Forza had damage but it wasn't extensive enough. I'm talking cars breaking up dramatically, the mechanicals should be stronger than real so a bad move by the AI doesn't end you're endurance race with 5 laps to go.

Good AI that learnsfrom it's mistakes and from you.

Good online with a very flexible structure allowing for spot races and tournaments with a options to limit a cars spec to limiting races to certain cars only ect.
 
I thought some company brought the rights to those cars so no other game could have them? If not, then there is a chance.

I would also like that your car would break down everynow and then, maybe on track (I can see your guys getting mad.) But maybe like a blown tire/suspension, lost a gear, something like that. Damage doesn't have to be visual so I think it'll be neat and factor in the realism of this great game. AI that will learn from you? Wow, that'll be the day.
 
AI DOES mean artificial intelligence. Of course, it's more or less lost it's meaning to become "whatever the hell the computer does or is programmed to do in reaction to you". It needs work but I wouldn't say Forza's is much better. True it isn't brick like, but the CPU tends to be very agressive from what I've played so far.

Not much can be learned so much from Forza as could be learned from real life. If GT5 tried taking cues from Forza just to "keep up" as it were, it'd be left in the dust while Forza takes what it has and adds anew.
 
after playing Forza long into the night last night, i can say that PD better allow us to do burnouts and donouhts in GT5......it ads alot more realism to driving a car and makes the handeling more realistic......the overstear/understear thing also needs work.......damage is a no brainer, but i want things to actually fall off of the cars unlike in Forza how they just sit there flopping.....

will post again when i think of more...too tired right now
 
Classes- Why would anyone want to race a 200hp stock Subaru against a 400hp tuner Subaru? Here's an idea, have classes depending on performance, and only have opponents that are in your class.

Search Engine- Why should you have to go through every manufacturer to find the car you need? Just use a search engine to find the decade, power, etc. you want.

Qualifying- Granted, Forza's qualifying is simulated based on performance, but at least it doesn't guarantee you will be in last every blasted time.

Home Regions- This is an interesting innovation unique to Forza. If you select North America, for example, all cars normally sold in America (whether foreign or domestic) are available for purchase. All other cars are unlockables.

Levels- In Forza, you gain levels after a certain amount of winnings. Every 5 levels, you unlock cars from a specific manufacturer or country. With home regions, mentioned above, levels could be useful. Levels could also determine when you go on to higher difficulty races.

Unlockables- Why should you just have to win the cars themselves? They waste space in your garage, and yet can't be bought from the dealer they're in. In Forza, once you win the car, you can buy it again later. This should be the same in GT, or you could simply unlock it like in SGT.
 
FWA2500
after playing Forza long into the night last night, i can say that PD better allow us to do burnouts and donouhts in GT5......it ads alot more realism to driving a car and makes the handeling more realistic......the overstear/understear thing also needs work.......damage is a no brainer, but i want things to actually fall off of the cars unlike in Forza how they just sit there flopping.....

will post again when i think of more...too tired right now
Click to expand...

I own Forza and played it quite a bit yesterday with a couple of friends (here's at you, jump_ace :P) ... I watched several times how wings were knocked off and were left laying on the track and even smaller parts could be seen laps later from previous smashes. It seems to happen mostly when damage moves into the red - or severe - levels, but believe me, I've seen more than just "flapping around".

That being said, I watched the same two friends test the Forza damage system by taking two LeMans cars and ramming them into eachother at 200mph (opposite ways on a highspeed ring) and the result was ... disheartening. Literally, they bounced ala-GT style with minor cosmetic front damage. What we all expected was an explosion of parts and absolute mayhem ... it was a farce and undelrined something live4speed said above; Forza didn't take the concept far enough.

Forza DOES have a superior physics model, however. You only have to view the extension telemetry data in a replay to see that, but the fact that you can 'donut' a car, or front wheel drive vehicles really don't like braking and turning at 100mph only illustrates the point even more. I'm a real fan of GT4, but Forza does have the physics model beaten.

Forza's AI, a better damage model than Forza, Forza's physics ... with a little more on top ... and we'd be getting somewhere.

I also like how Forza gives out points/rewards based on position and it's not necessarily an all or nothing thing: 2nd or 3rd can be fine. Likewise, the way you get a penalty for driving dirty is well implemented.
 
I have both GT4 and Forza. To start, i love GT more than anything, so when i bought Forza, it was gonna have to live up to alot. I was surprised how good it was, graphically and physics wise, tracks were fewer but diverse. The sounds were also well done. Tuning options were as deep as Gt but easier to understand. The only thing that makes me love playing GT more than Forza is the DFP wheel, i hate driving a car with a joystick, it just doesnt do it for me, and as of now, nothing beats that DFP wheel for GT4. Both games have alot they can improve on, but thats what technology is, a constant evolution. As far as GT5, im just keeping my fingers crossed that PD will get their sxxx together and put out a true to life driving simulator, meaning whatever i can do in a car in real life, i'd better be able to do it in game.
 
shawtyoner, I couldn't agree with you more. If the XBox had the equivalent of the DFP, I'd probably be much more inclined to seriously throw myself into Forza, but using a controller will always hold it back in my books and make it too much of an arcade experience.

I'll probably not look at another Forza title until they rectify this.
 
I dunno. I still play GT4 with a DS2. Forza does have the immense drawback that the entire Xbox console has had from the start--it's seriously poor controller design. The triggers were a good idea, but the bulky shape of the controller detracts from their usefulness. The control sticks themselves also leave much to be desired. Of course, I'm double-jointed in my thumbs so this could be a contributor to this problem.

Forza is a good contender. It's just like GT4: it SHOULD be perfect but it ain't. There are a bunch of little things that really detract from it so it's not THE racing game. Right now we all have to accept the fact that there just isn't a perfect console racer as of yet. Just 2 really good ones. ;)
 
As you all may know, my only Forza experience was the demo. I raced just about every car in the demo from the Nissan 350Z to my favorite race car, the Ferrari 333SP. Also nice to know the machine has been campaigned by the Houston-based Ferrari racing team, Risi Competitzione.

When it came down to AI, I've never been knocked into walls or have someone rear-end me to go off-course. And as I say, if I don't see it, I can't call it. In the Forza demo, I remembered starting my upgraded Acura NSX (by the way, the customization is probably my favorite element of Forza). As I was getting up to speed, some dude rammed me into the wall just past the Start/Finish line, resulting me to lose my right-rear panel. And I'm saying to myself "THIS is better than GT4's AI? Yeah, right..." I was thinking, were the drivers this foolish so that they can show me that this game has damage and GT4 does not, or were the AI drivers this dumb that they have the answer to GT4's AI problems? AI isn't perfect. I'm not talking about Philidelphia 76er Allen Iverson, but Artificial Intelligence. No game is going to do it perfectly. So you try your best at doing AI right.

Ferrari and Porsche... long-debated in Gran Turismo. I respect both makes, but I don't really care seeing them in ANY GT game. If they don't make it, that's fine with me. Then too, how much are these two asking for in terms of licensing deals? I think if PD wanted to challenge for the licensing, look to another Japanese game company- Sega. OutRun 2 was the latest all-Ferrari, all-the-time game. I'm not going to hate GT games because it doesn't have a car or maker that I want to see so bad, so I'm not going to even go there.

My ideas on damage and other issues are coming in future posts. Until then, carry on.
 
I have played Forza at my friend's house, and I have to admit, it was very good, I must applaud Microsoft for a first time effort. Few things to improve on:

During replays, the advanced telementries provide some nice information, although GT4 has that analyzer for the races, the analyzer don't nearly tell me as much, and plus I can only see a graphical representation of where I am on the track, rather than seeing where I ACTUALLY am.

Include more American circuits. Yes, I said it, more tracks. I really like GT4's nice variety of tracks, but I would like to see less versions of Fuji Speedway and maybe add in like Road Atlanta, Sebring, etc. On that topic, it would be nice if PD brought back Pikes Peak Hill Climb. :)

Going slightly off topic, I never really liked how the wheels looked while racing. They seemed too flat, 2D almost. If only they could make the wheels look like the wheels in Enthusia. Mmm those are beautiful.

Also, if only I can put full replays onto my USB flash drive to upload onto the computer...
 
somthing in forza that really bugs me is the penalty system....you get time added even if you are rammed......was on the ring durring the Ferrari race in an F40......at Bergwerk i was rammed off the track....and penalized! penalties??? for somthing you didnt do???? wow.
 
Like someone said before..

.. I would like the AI cars to drive pass, not drive in to me. I allso want the AI cars to drive more "free", not a lane all the time. But that function is working better and better in every GT game.

Not to many cars either, I really don't think the "old school" cars are really nessisary..?

Something I would like, is skirt-kits to the cars. Pretty many skirts to chose between, so not all the cars look the same.. I think all cars look's a little to much "stock".

This thing with damage.. This function was allowed in GT 2, I think.. But that was just technical problems, not visual damage.. Then when the GT3 came this funtion was gone.. So I say it like this (probably to protect GT a little :bowdown: ), I think they wait with the Damage function til they can do it "the way they want it to work". So the console will make it without any slow-down and so on. I think they did this thing with the Crouds to. They waited til they could do the Crouds look pretty good..

Just my opinion / Jo-que
 
I've found the AI in FOrza to be superior to GT in every respect ... in FOrza you can get jostled, but only in the same way that I jostle the AI ... sometimes they brake when I don't expect, or I'm too close, so when the roles are reversed I tend to find the AI up my rear bumper and so on ... but they do make efforts to avoid you and they will attempt a different line, rather than just ram you off yours.

Something else I'd LOVE to see implemented in GT is the drivatar idea ... training your own B-spec is a MUST! It's a great, great idea. In Forza you can train MULTIPLE 'b-specs', even swap them with friends, and even race against them ... which would be like racing against yourself, because they are only as good as YOU ... it's wonderful implemented and while I'm not one top let the AI drive for me, I loved the whole training process and foudn that it actually helped ME get better as well, because it rated me on every corner as I drove around the course. It's an awesome feature.
 
IMO, I find the B-Spec better than the Drivatar. My drivatar is f'ing stupid at Level 32. He does now want to pass at all. He just sits on either the 1st place, or 2nd place's bumper and that's it.
 
I haven't got as far as actually racing the sucker, so i don't know about his overtaking abilities ... and talking of which, you get to train his "cornering" but not his "overtaking" ... maybe they should have added that.
 
Forza has the AI but doesn't quite gets the physics. It is a mix of arcade and simulation. I also hate how you can easily lock your tires, even when braking at 25%. There's no understeer in the game. Imagine you are going at 150 mph, then brake to 50 mph to take the chicane. Just as you brake and reach 50 mph the car feels like you are at 0 mph. Reason for this, is that at the slightest touch of the analog controller, your heading can be abruptly changed.

I think the reason GT4 dissapointed was not because of Forza but rather by Polyphony's own fault. To fans, the game feels like an expansion pack to GT3. THEY NEED TO IMPROVE THE AI.
 
Yeah, I wasn't to fond of the physics either. It seemed too arcade like. Maybe because I'm so used to GT and I expect it to be similiar, but for me it feels vastly different and easy. (I only played the demo by the way.)

I think it's that's cool that you could train your B-Spec driver (Drivatar?) and even race him. That would be a nice feature top add to GT. Who knows, maybe your Drivatar can be better?
 
Classic Anycar
Classes- Why would anyone want to race a 200hp stock Subaru against a 400hp tuner Subaru? Here's an idea, have classes depending on performance, and only have opponents that are in your class.

Search Engine- Why should you have to go through every manufacturer to find the car you need? Just use a search engine to find the decade, power, etc. you want.

Qualifying- Granted, Forza's qualifying is simulated based on performance, but at least it doesn't guarantee you will be in last every blasted time.

Oh, BTW, the opponents are stupid in Forza too.
Click to expand...
1-GT3 did that in Arcade. Race a 500Hp Cobra R in arcade, and expect to see some much faster cars than the Cobra R would go up against stock

2-Yes, it'd be nice, but I can live without it. Besides, finding the cars is only a 3-step process, and there's a Search Engine in the Garage.

3-There is Qualifying in GT. Its called the Practice mode, and is much better than Forza's qualifying, which I find down right stupid. Fastest car in front, and slowest in back? Wow, what an exciting race. And what I mean is that the whole line-up can be equal, but the cars with the best acceleration, just leave everyone in the dust, and I feel its unreal, because it hardly lets anyone get to race through last to 1st because 1st usually always can out accelerate anything in the last 2 spots. I'll take GT4's realistic qualifying over Forza's who just puts the highest car in the class 1st and lowest in last.
 
Fastest speeds qualify? What the hell kind of stuff is that? I think I even heard that if you raced with a lesser car with the same performance as a Ferrari 360 Modena, you'd still get spanked by the Ferrari. Almost seems unfair from what I've read.

An element I'd bring to the next GT from Forza would have to be those winding rally stages. Either that or segment Nurburgring Nordschleife and make a 3 or 5 stage tarmac rally out of the Nurburgring Nordschleife. But then too, I heard the rally element of Forza was pretty weak. Or that's what someone on G4 TV show "G4tv.com" said about rally in Forza. Being on GTP since 12/5/2003, I'm no stranger to people saying "Gran Turismo rallying is a joke." But, when it comes to weak elements in Forza, many of the comments directed related to the rally, but especially Forza's soundtrack. I think when Morgan Webb of "X-Play" reviewed Forza, she even said about one song "at least it's a semi-decent Iron Maiden rip," or whatever she said. To drop one more G4 TV reference in terms of what's weak and what isn't, "Judgment Day" was talking about that the graphics being awesome and a weak soundtrack.

How many of you agree one some of the rallying and tight courses of Forza should be implemented in the next GT?
 
Hello!

I own GT4 and play it with the DFP.
My friend has Forza and the Fanatec Speedster 3 wheel.
I played a lot Forza in the last weeks with him.

Things GT can learn from Forza:

- at the "single races" in GT you can´t qualify in masterships you can. So why do not "copy" for the single races the "simulated qualifying". OR BETTER: Real Qualifying in EVERY RACE

- Some beautiful Race Cars (Chrysler Viper from the 24h Race at the Nurburgring)

- Painting your own car

- Sound from V8´s (Pontiac GTO sounds GREAT in Forza)



What Forza can learn from GT:

- make the Nordschleife REAL Looking and with the real lenght (20.8 km NOT 20.99 or 22.8 in PGR) Sorry, but Forzas Nordschleife is shxx.

- work on the Force Feedback for the steering wheel. Sorry, but with the Speedster 3 wheel you have no useful Feedback. You don´t feel when the car loses grip, flies over the curbs or something like that.

- MORE CARS (there is no BMW in Forza expect the RACE Cars)

- The sense of Speed.


GT AND Forza needs better AI. I get more kicked of the track in FORZA than in GT4.

Physics and Tracks: I don´t know how they made it in Forza... Nearly EVERY Corner on the RING you can drive faster in FORZA... but the laptimes are higher...
To me it seems that they made the straightaways longer (and this means TOO Long and not the REAL DEAL ;-) )

CU

Kutscher
 
The only thing I saw that GT could learn from forza was to add a racing line on the track, green when to accelerate, red to brake, yellow to hold throttle etc so you can learn the proper line faster

Thats all because online, smarter AI etc will be upgraded. PD is not idiots they will not have 6 cars and idiot AI forever. The only reason why the AI sucked is bwecause there is no damage and onmly 6 cars, so th need for smart AI wasnt really there. Now if there was damage and 20 cars....thats a different story, need smart AI then
 
- Damage
- More Customization through parts, looks, body kits, paint, decals, so on
- A New and Better 1st Person View where you are actually INSIDE the car and can see the rain on the window, the windshield wipers, so on. (Something GT4 can learn from RalliSport Challnge 2 for XBox)
- Also while IN the car in that 1st person view, the player should be either on the left or right seat of the car... NOT the middle.
- A Much Better Rally Simulation, the one in GT4 sucks. Rally is much different, it seems as though that you're driving in slow-mo in GT4.
- Speaking of Slow-Mo, Slow-Mo Replays...Matrix Style... You should be able to control the Slow-Mo (Another thing to learn from RalliSport Challenge 2)
 
Kutscher, I'd like to thank you for reversing the question. That's something I'd like to do, but nice to see you give it a shot.

I guess to prove Kolyana's point, one of the more popular middle seat cars is in the game, the Fina McLaren F1. Then too, they are pretty rare unless you're thinking about single-seater formula race cars. The racing line deal in Forza is part of what someone on G4 TV was saying is that it makes the game easier. In fact, some even say that Forza is more accessible and easier than GT4. But chatting online with my GTP friend "McLaren'sAngel," she told me that one of the more surprising elements of Forza is that you can actually set the difficulty of the game to the point where you can pretty much win very easily. To some of us, that's a good thing because many of us aren't racing diehards like many of us on GTP. To some of us others, it's a bad thing because usually your skill level does the talking in terms of what kind of racing talent you have. Being a Gran Turismo veteran, there's not really much I've already seen before in terms of difficulty. To me, Gran Turismo 4 is the toughest one I've played in the series. This is the first Gran Turismo I actually admit to being lapped. This was at the Gran Turismo World Championship race event at Hong Kong. I was saying that perhaps the game is hard so that people can stop saying that GT games are easy because you can blow out the competition in cars much more powerful than what's allowed.

The customization is obviously a very special deal for many people. I know that best having played Tokyo Xtreme Racer 3. If there was one thing I'd agree to about Forza to GT, I'd definitely mention customization. I'm not going to say anything like bodykits, because I don't think many of us want to race a pimped-out Nissan 350Z with scissor doors and a big ass stereo system. All I can say is, the customization should be done so that modifying cars doesn't go to a level that meets NFS:U and TXR3. Rear wing placements are a start for customization. Perhaps completely modifying your car for performance and look like it's a performer would be my suggestions. Carry on, people.
 
Back then, my only experience of Forza was the demo. Now that a number of stores have Forza at the XBOX stands, I've played Forza a little more.

Forza has been described as either (1) Microsoft's answer to Gran Turismo, or (2) a Gran Turismo XBOX owners can be proud of. I've grown respective of Forza after playing it a couple of times. I think I absolutely blasted Forza and didn't get a warm reception in the past. I'm actually compelled about the level of tuning you can have in Forza compared to GT4. There's so much more you can do, seems like. That point comes as paint shop and aero kits are nonwithstanding. I probably would have preferred something like 16.7M color rather than a fixed palette for different car color options in Forza. Can you imagine if GT5 had a Paint Shop feature with blank race cars? You can basically screw up a car's looks to make your own race cars. You could replace the paint of some of the more generic paintschemes with something a bit more interesting. Another possibility is that you could replace the "Gran Turismo" schemes with different decals. Imagine you can take the Subaru Impreza Super Touring Car and replace the "Gran Turismo - The Real Driving Simulator" decals with something like Mobil 1, OZ Racing, or something like that.

People say Forza's rallying is highly questionable. People complained of GT4's rallying. Well, GT5 could use a little open-course action like Fu?imi Kaido, Pacific Shipyards, and that sort of thing. I think it would really help tarmac rallying. Then the next thing to do is look at the off-road rallying.

Now that more people have probably played (or beaten) Forza, why not share what more PD can learn from Forza, if anything?
 

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