GTP!! Where have we gone wrong? Can we fix it?

In 2 more days I will have been at GTP for 3 years, in that time i really believe GTP has gone downhill. GTP feels a lot different now and i don’t enjoy it as much. Let me explain.

Back in the day GTP was a lot less strict, certain threads could be posted and they would stay open, where as now they would be locked. For example, Rumple Foreskin's big girls thread, and the thread about that fake 7'4 girl. I’m almost 90% sure those threads would have stayed open if they were posted 3 years ago. I believe that the moderators have changed significantly in the way they moderate. Instead of deleting a few posts in a thread it seems they just lock the entire thread. It’s almost like they moderate to cause no arguments, not moderate when an argument has taken place. This gives me the feeling that i can no longer post my mind about things in fear of offending someone or even *gasp* one of the 25? Mods/admins. Even if 90% of my replies could be civil, if the chance that some guy could get offended by it, the mods will remove it and if the mod is offended by it (which changes based on which mod has seen it) they will lock it. I have seen situations where some mods will post in a certain thread fully supporting it and having a good laugh, only to have another mod appear and lock it just because "they" feel it was inappropriate. Not only does GTP have 20 odd mods but it’s almost like those mods, moderate based on how "they" feel not on a set of guidelines. What some mods let slide, another gets offended or feels it’s inappropriate and locks it. I would like a little more consistency on the mods behalf, it either is ok or it isn’t, not its ok if "Bob" sees it but not if "Barney" sees it.

Another sign that GTP has changed, ever looked back to threads that are 3 - 4 years old? Notice how pretty much every thread that old has at least 1 - 2 banned members, if not more. This can show that the moderating changed, and that what was accepted from these members changed, which lead to them getting into conflicts with the mods then ultimately getting banned (in the end the mod will always win).

Now another thing has to be mentioned is it’s much easier to offend a member these days, and people are so quick to jump down each others throats and argue, which wasn’t how it used to be. Some members get offended at such stupid things then start a massive flame fest. Other members think that just because they don’t agree with something or don’t believe it, it is indeed wrong, which leads to arguing and flaming. I don’t believe this happened a whole lot back in the day.

So as you can see both the mods and some members have changed. Is it possible to restore GTP back to a friendly community which isn’t so strict? Where people don’t get offended so easily? Is it possible for the mods to have a rethink on their approach to moderating as frankly i don’t think their current approach is working. I don’t really know of an answer to this problem but I'm sure many other members out their will have a few ideas.

Some things have to change... But what? And how?

You're pretty much spot on with that.

I feel that mods have become more strict due to the lowering age of the average member.

When GTP first began, I would say the average member was 25.
These days, the average member would be around 15.

The lower the age, the higher the immaturity, and immaturity is the root cause of all the problems.

Seems everyone has forgotten how to take a joke.
In 2001 if you made a joke about a member, everyone laughed, and that member let it go and laughed along.
Now, you make a joke about a member and you get a warning, and no one laughs.

It's even come to the point that the younger members feel the need to make a thread about being made fun of OFF THE SITE. There's one incident I'm thinking of where that is exactly what happend. A person made a thread about a mod making a joke or two off-site.

You try and have a bit of fun, and everyone gets pissed.

Not the way this place used to be, for sure.

Dion

Now another thing has to be mentioned is it’s much easier to offend a member these days, and people are so quick to jump down each others throats and argue, which wasn’t how it used to be. Some members get offended at such stupid things then start a massive flame fest. Other members think that just because they don’t agree with something or don’t believe it, it is indeed wrong, which leads to arguing and flaming. I don’t believe this happened a whole lot back in the day.

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I think right there is your main problem. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to shift the blame onto somebody else, but as the average age of the GTP user declines into the early teens, and as this forum rises, you should come to expect a shift in the attitude of each member, and you should come to expect that certain areas will change.

GTPlanet is the leading Gran Turismo site on the internet, and also contains a lot of other useful non-Gran Turismo information. Different people, generally nowadays, teenagers, see this forum and want to participate. Though the way other people behave on other forums, is generally very different to what we like to contain in this forum. Therefore, these types of members come to this forum without reading the Acceptable Use Policy, which every member here should most certainly read, and expect to get away with certain things. When they are reprimanded, problems arise.

Aggressive users and heated arguments are also a big problem. There are other ways to providing your point and rebuttle to certain subjects than simply getting frustrated and angry at someone whom you do not agree with. This, in turn with the rising level of immaturity, is forcing the moderators become more strict in certain areas.

Though, I will admit, I do feel for certain users who are well-behaved and co-operative, especially those who have been at this site for a long time, and have seen the forum change like this. But you have to expect that all things in life change, especially those things that have been around for some time. It's unfortunate that it happens, but you have to live with that fact.

In time, I do believe, that if you give us Moderators, and the other members on this site some time, things will turn around eventually. It takes time for some things to occur, especially on such a large forum as GTPlanet. You just have to have a little patience.

Some members have been helping out, either way. I have noticed since the "IBTL" crack-down, that some members are willing to help report certain things straight away, state that they have reported the thread and why, and everyone has seemed to leave these threads alone. I would like to thank these members, and all who have been helping, on behalf of the Moderating staff. In situations like this, certain members do shine through and become very helpful.

Dion, I sympathise with you, as you have always been a co-operative and well-behaved member as long as I have known you. I suggest to those who feel the same having some patience, enjoying what you can, personally, on the forum, and most importantly, ignoring other happenings with other members. There's no need for people to get involved in certain situations, and if anybody has any questions or problems, there's always a Private Message button.

I apologise for the long-winded reply.

I've been at GTP less than a year, so I am not in a position to compare the past to now. For me GTP is what it is. Yes it is restrictive, and yes, I also get frustrated with the quick tempers and attitudes. But......I am not your average member anyway.

What I do know, is that I have made some good friends here,(Dion you are one of them) and would have a hard time giving up the chat and good times we do have.

The other thing I know is three thoughtful, constructive, quality posts in a row when I see them. 👍 Rep all.


MS

Small_Fryz

Is it possible to restore GTP back to a friendly community which isn’t so strict?

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No, not really.

Small_Fryz

Is it possible for the mods to have a rethink on their approach to moderating as frankly i don’t think their current approach is working.

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No.

I agree 100% with you Dion.

Although I haven't been GTPs greatest member I have been around for 3 and a half years and I can honestly say that I've seen the change you talk about as well.

People are trying to be too PC. The amount of sucking up to more prominent members is so completely obvious! The reputation system only fuels this and as a result people only get + rep when they talk someone down. The rep system also explains the sucking up. There are also too many know-it-alls who cannot leave people alone (I'm looking at the majority of the opinion forum regulars here) and insist on start arguments and bringing the overall quality of GTP further and further down.

I know this place isn't cool to me anymore and I could very well say 'To hell with this place' which I'm sure the staff would be more then welcome to respond with 'Goodbye, nice knowing you' but I don't want them to have that satisfaction. I would want them to know that I left because of choices they've made which has lowered the fun factor of GTP considerably.

Well I didn't know the site before all these apparent "changes" took place, so I can't comment on how it is now compared to then. I will say that I think GTP is pretty good in terms of its rules and what it allows and does not allow. On the one hand you're allowed to get away with pretty colorful language on GTP, which keeps it loose and a little more on the fun side of things. But on the other hand, there are many words you absolutely cannot say, there are rules against posting like a moron (using plz, 2day, and not using capitals), and the direct attacks are not tolerated, which keeps the site from turning into one of those forums you go on and everyone's saying m-f you and kiss-my-this and suck-my-that you such-and-such-a-suker.

The end result is a stimulating level of conversation to be found in the message forums, with an elevated level of speech and some pretty damn intelligent members that we probably wouldn't have otherwise. Loosening up GTP any more than it is I think would repel some of the more respectable members. You can't have a personal family-like community with a site that's grown this big. It just cannot work.

But that's just one man's opinion...

well excuse me for being a moron
yeah there are quite a few hostile members on but they dont bother me. there are, however, quite a few members who refuse to take the time to look around before starting a new thread. as far as language and grammar is concerned, GTP seems to be very diverse so there are members that speak english as a 2nd or 3rd language. u cant blame them. also the swear filter is a great idea.

You do not classify as a moron FaLLenAn9eL because we can all understand what you are saying on your posts. You get your point across with fluid clarity and organization. The morons I'm talking about are the ones who post something either so dumb or so illegible it makes you want to find them, grab them, and smack them upside the head.

I've been here for over 3 years now counting my other account and I relatively agree with what you said Fryz.

I agree about moderators closing threads based on their own beliefs and not on what the site itself believes, aka Jordan, aka some sort of guidelines.

This could be change by creating a few guidelines, but I'm already sure those exists, maybe they are just unknown to the mass.

Althought this is a problem, we can't go against the fact that the age average here at GTP has dropped down significantly and that immature posts ( Young warrior ) have become quite regular. We just have to accept certain facts and adapt, it's the difference between an internet community that will break down and one that will evolve.

That's my opinion, I'm 16.

Was quoting the whole thing necessary?

I will echo Anderton's sentiments... going back to the kind of atmosphere that was around back then would be almost impossible... This forum has grownth exponentionally in the last few years.

PunkRock

Was quoting the whole thing necessary?

I will echo Anderton's sentiments... going back to the kind of atmosphere that was around back then would be almost impossible... This forum has grownth exponentionally in the last few years.

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But thats no reason to ignore any of my points in post 1. Im sure GTP can improve on most of them.

Small_Fryz

But thats no reason to ignore any of my points in post 1. Im sure GTP can improve on most of them.

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GTP will only improve if the members want it to improve, however. While I agree we can do our part to be slightly more lenient with certain topics, if the members don't do an effort in the same way, what good does it make?

GTP will only ever be as good as its members want it to be...

This is my favorite message board to frequent for the very reason that Small Fryz thinks that it is lame. There are actual discussions here, and not childish name calling and general immaturity. It's a welcome change from the types of things posted on other message boards I used to visit. I do think that the mods here are a bit trigger-happy with the thread-locking, but most of the threads I see locked didn't appear to have much promise. All in all, I'd say the hour or so I spend here every day is very enjoyable.

PunkRock

GTP will only improve if the members want it to improve, however. While I agree we can do our part to be slightly more lenient with certain topics, if the members don't do an effort in the same way, what good does it make?

GTP will only ever be as good as its members want it to be...

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You can also say, GTP will only be as good as the leaders want it to be.

The best way to lead, is to lead by example. I think if you guys make and effort many other members will also.

kylehnat

This is my favorite message board to frequent for the very reason that Small Fryz thinks that it is lame. There are actual discussions here, and not childish name calling and general immaturity.

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You miss read my post, i dont belive i stated anywhere in it that i wanted more immaturity and name calling, in fact i think this has gotten worse than it used to be, thats one of the main problems 'increase in immaturity'

Small_Fryz

You can also say, GTP will only be as good as the leaders want it to be.

The best way to lead, is to lead by example. I think if you guys make and effort many other members will also.

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Yes. But no one follows suit, what is the point of all that?

Small Fryz

You miss read my post, i dont belive i stated anywhere in it that i wanted more immaturity and name calling, in fact i think this has gotten worse than it used to be, thats one of the main problems 'increase in immaturity'

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Fair enough.

My main point is that GTP is so much better than other forums, mainly because there isn't so much crap on it.

Although I agree that this site has moved a lot in it's moderation strategies, as well as in topical design, I don't feel that it was a negative move. With more and more people registering, it's really difficult to manage the growing masses, without cracking down on people not abiding by the rules. Think of a mob.

Problems arise from the diverse group of people we have here. In a smaller community, the moderator staff can keep things aligned with the general direction that most of the members want to go in. As you acquire more members, however, this becomes more difficult. People eventually divide into cliques, each wanting to go in its own direction. This leaves moderators with a tough challenge. Close a thread and anger one group, leave it open to receive objection from another.

At that point, moderators need to simply stick with the Acceptable Use Policy. I can't please everyone, so I have to look at how I want the site to be run. I have defined those goals as best I can in that document. It does leave much room for interpretation, and if you feel a moderator has misinterpreted anything or has stepped out of bounds I encourage you to contact me.

Even though I have granted much authority to Duke, Alex, and the moderator staff, I ultimately hold all the keys and have the final say in any matter. You can PM or email me any of your concerns and they will remain private - I encourage your feedback. I may not agree with your objections, but you certainly won't be reprimanded for them if made appropriately (specific examples and posts really help).

What I think is interesting is how the same type of thing happens on a much larger scale with real-world communities, cities, and countries. This is just how people and authority work. It's something human society has been struggling with for a long time, but if we all work together and keep the lines of communication open, it will be much less painful for our little planet.

PunkRock

Yes. But no one follows suit, what is the point of all that?

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How do you know?

so you would rather just give up?

Ok…. I’ve been here for two years, and in that time there have been a lot of changes. There have been changes caused by the members, and changes that the staff have implemented in reaction to the members.

The site has so many members now, and in a lot of forums it’s impossible to keep track of who’s who. The average age has dropped, and the average level of posting has dropped.

In response, the mods have closed the Test Forum, and the Conversation Forum—which, instead of the funny posts that used to be posted, were filled with moronic posts, by people who thought they were funny.

But, either way, the posts weren’t of much use. So, personally, I don’t miss the Test Forum, or the Conversation Forum. Still, I do get annoyed by the overall decrease in quality of posts.

PunkRock

GTP will only improve if the members want it to improve, however. While I agree we can do our part to be slightly more lenient with certain topics, if the members don't do an effort in the same way, what good does it make?

GTP will only ever be as good as its members want it to be...

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No, the content of this forum will only be as good as it is allowed to be. It has a strict USSR-like censorship that now makes people scared to post. It's visible in this very thread, how people are too afriad to name individual names. They don't want to offend anyone. But hey, anyone can insult YW because even themods have long dealt with him.

If you're saying that nobody follows suit, then the cause of the problem is undiciplined members? If you have people follow the framework rules, then they will eventually follow the detail rules, or simply drop off the forum.

The reason why I visit so thinly nowadays is simply because GTP has gotten boring. That, and people feel like they're automotive analysts by saying "This car looks like that car." Completely uneducated jargon.

How do you make a place more fun? That's something that has been impossible in any microchosm. Making a community "more fun" is the highschool scheduling more school dances and the occassional barbecue picnnic - not fun.

Back in the day GTP was a lot less strict, certain threads could be posted and they would stay open, where as now they would be locked. For example, Rumple Foreskin's big girls thread, and the thread about that fake 7'4 girl. I’m almost 90% sure those threads would have stayed open if they were posted 3 years ago. I believe that the moderators have changed significantly in the way they moderate.

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Mod's behaviour is based on member behaviour. Three years ago those threads could exist because members where mature enough to walk the fine line between humour and taking it too far, and getting as good as you give and simultaneuosly taking it on the chin.

Over this time, the average age of membership has dropped, as has maturity. For example, when "The Colour Blue" was in its prime, it was attended by 8-10 members who used it responsibly, and the humour from that thread permeated the rest of the site. Then new members wanted in on the party and so began the slide to closure. The same applies to the general forum.

If Rumple made a thread like that now, it wouldnt last because people arent generally mature enough to walk the aforementioned lines anymore.

As a result of this, the mods have had to become more stringent, whereas a few years ago we could let things slide because we new the members in question were mature enough to realise their blunder. Now if we do the same, it is an invitation to act with even more impunity.

IMO, the ball is in the members court. Act the part and the mods will give you more rope.

Most of the members don't even know the existence of the Rumble Strip...that doesn't help.

I use to post on another board before getting hooked on GT3 just before GT4 came out. Thats when I did some searching and found GTPlanet. Although I agree with you about some threads being closed down before their time mainly due to a few people, sometimes it has to be done to save the face of the board.

Have you ever been to IGN.com message board? Theres many others like it i'm sure, my point being though, without focus and moderation, thats what you'll get, a complete mess that helps no one. I'm actually thankful for GTPlanet and how smooth it normally runs. Those who feel it isn't for them aren't forced to visit, and although it may not be perfect for everyone, most will agree its one of the best boards out there. 👍

I have something to contribute on this stuff. I haven't been along for much time, I've only experienced this forum one year now.

The most annoying thing I see in the forums, is that in certain areas the members are very eager to redirect new members on topics that will be locked. Sometimes it looks like a fight on who redirects the new member first.

Mostly it's like:

Hi welcome to the forums,
Please search and read the stickies

*followed by 2 links for that topic*

Enjoy your stay!

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Now if I would be welcomed like that I would leave GTP at once. We dont treat them as a person, but we treat the thread more like it's our opportunity to show we know the rules and that we would be some excellent admin if the chance ever came

This is my suspicion on how thing work for some number of members. I hate the attitude somehow.
At least dont give the exact same welcome reply all the time, dont make a word document with such a reply in it so you can just copy paste it into the quick reply bar together with some links. A unique reply for every new member and topic like that would be better IMO.

Just act a bit more human, we could as well make a bot for the redirecting.

I'm like kylehnat. I'm sorry, but I think gtplanet is great. Yes, I've seen some imperfection from the mods, like threads getting locked up rather hastily. But, I'm surprised by how well the moderators actually function. Mod Staff will never be perfect to everyone. It's just not possible to please everybody 100%. I totally understand how some of the oldschool members might not like how the site has changed. If I were in their shoes, I don't think I'd like it either. But like some member's been saying, with this site growing so much and member's average age dropping, there is no way you can avoid changes IMO.

GTP has changed since i started here (just under 2 years ago), but i can't quite put my finger on in what way.

I first came here looking for news on the iminant release of GT4, and therefore did my time as a newbie in those threads. With a title like 'Gran Turismo Planet' most new comers are probably here for the GT content. Eventually those who like being here, will get bored of 'GtAe46dRifta' forever posting the same new threads on tired well discussed material, and look elsewhere for other banter. Some will head towards the online racing threads, others depending on their other none-gaming hobbies and interests will start residing in the music, films, sports, motoring or politics/opinions threads.

Naturally people leave for whatever reason, but if those that leave are big contributers or 'characters', their input can suddenly leave big holes in the daily post amount and quality. Take for example the recent departure of Doug and Joey, their lack of contributions to the automotive threads have really been noticeable and those threads haven't been the same since.

I think if you give it a bit of time, some of the more mature GT4 thread posters will get bored and migrate to the other threads, hopefully becoming valued contributors and fill the gaps left by 'the departed'

Well I dont post here half as much as I used to nowadays as it just doesn't feel the same to me anymore, dont get me wrong! I still check in everyday for a nosey around ... but I can see what Dion is saying about it not being the same as back in the day etc, since I joined in 2001 it was a brilliant place with great enthusiasm towards racing and a massive following of commited friendly members and hardly much moderating needed doing it seemed! now with "10 Billion members" and actual racing being such a small part of this site it has gone way over my head and lost a lot of the appeal for me ..
But I suppose all good things come to an end eventually and the decision of when it will be the end is when that single person calling it the end has basically had enough, as many of the old members that kept it interesting enough for me to post regularly probably had enough and left also.

Anyway I dont have no direct problems with moderators or members etc .. as I dont really post and dont cause trouble or post silly crap unless totally nessecary so I cant really comment on the way they deal with troublemakers other than swift and no messin about as seen from a few occasions by myself.

GTP was the first racing site I joined when I came online and now with so many racing based sites around its pretty easy to find a location that suits my needs and the atmosphere I am looking for is only a click away and I do that nowadays and just look around all the boards and post where I find something that interests me ... like this thread for example

My only real problem with GTP is this damn script running in the background that causes my log in connection to GTP to lag for a couple of seconds everytime I visit and I find that the main thing that gets up my nose! .... Call me picky but I just cant stand being made to wait because I havent paid to be a premium member ... but then again I suppose with my visits lessening more and more I will get over it eventually ...

my end view is "progression! .. be it a forum or the way we live will always change ... sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse! only time will hold the answer" ... old members will inevitabley be like the dinosaurs and die out and make way for a new breed!

Keep your chin up Dion and remember to Keeponrollin when you feeling down

My first long winded post in a long time! hopefully not my last 👍
Thanks for listening and hopefully someone can make sense of what I just typed

Laters
Ron.

As a GTP member since 2001, I've seen the changes. We aren't as close-knit as before, because there's more members; some good, some great, some terrible, and many, many more that are just non-existant.

One of the complaints (heh, as a non-moderator I get to do the complaining!) I have is that there's quite possibly too many forums. Although I'm not asking for complete dissolution of relevant forums, there's also too many different areas for people to spread out. Come in here around mid-day (well, for my hemisphere), and it's actually very quiet here. I don't post much (if at all) in the evenings, so I'm not terribly aware anymore about what happens.

As for all the banning, I can't say I've been disappointed that anyone's been shown the door. I will admit that it was extremely rare for a banning in the early days, and it was only around the end of 2003 that member behavioral changes were needed for quite a lot of members.

Threads were rarely locked too. Even before GT4 was released, there were a bevy of closed threads every day. Everyone feels the need to jump on the bandwagon to call names to new members, instead of actually helping out. Lots of people are rather snide about helping out; they just want to side with the bully, rather than explain anything.

There's no need to call names, but I don't feel everything's getting too PC at this point. 1337-speek was killed off, chat-speak is verboten here. There's been many changes, most for the better, and I'm not complaining one bit about the death of the Convo and Test forums. However, the reputation system is pointless (not to take anything away from our favorite indigo 'n' bold member ); we know who's worth their weight in gold and who's not worth their weight in dung already.

However, I feel a lot of personality is missing from these boards, lately. I don't feel like I know much of the moderating staff anymore (hell, a picture of who you really are might be nice). Maybe I'm just outgrowing this place, which is rather sad for a 32-year-old to admit.

Maybe pupik's not outgrown this place, but Josh sure is. Sigh.

pupik

I don't feel like I know much of the moderating staff anymore (hell, a picture of who you really are might be nice).

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Check my profile....