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- Thread starter zer05ive
- 150,399 comments
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- 7,689
- Michigan
- Rallywgn81
Yes to the last, because without the modifier someone will have a harder time when their absolute lowest point amount is so much lower then anothers. Since it only affects prize standings, running the modifier through the whole division won't affect standings within the division in any way.
The thing about it that I don't like though, if that guy in the div with 7 guys finished last, who's to say that he would have finished last in a div with 15? Maybe he would have still finished 7th, or maybe 10th. A variable life this makes the modifier less accurate. But, for prize determination, I think it goes a long way in evening up things and keeping the smaller division from walking away with first prize every week.
Hope this doesnt finish out your vision. Would be a hard might racing for ya.
The thing about it that I don't like though, if that guy in the div with 7 guys finished last, who's to say that he would have finished last in a div with 15? Maybe he would have still finished 7th, or maybe 10th. A variable life this makes the modifier less accurate. But, for prize determination, I think it goes a long way in evening up things and keeping the smaller division from walking away with first prize every week.
Hope this doesnt finish out your vision. Would be a hard might racing for ya.
Dragonwhisky
Premium
- 6,951
- the land of green, hills, rocks & whiskey
- Dragonwhisky
Sorry to hear that Deadbrah. But thanks for posting so I wouldn't have to edit my previous post to avoid the dreaded double post nazis.
So, all, here is what happens when you take Owens this;
looking for some ergonomic and immersion level modifications,
you get back this;
More parts! And I think I might have left that screw in the shop Jeff. You know, the one that puts it all together while I'm out with the family watching my son play softball when I'd rather be playing softball instead.
Thanks to Owens fabricating skills and all the equipment him and his father have at the shop, I'm looking forward to getting this all put together and hitting the grid. Not sure if I'll get it transformed from its current state for tonight, but it's my goal for the day.
So, all, here is what happens when you take Owens this;
looking for some ergonomic and immersion level modifications,
you get back this;
More parts! And I think I might have left that screw in the shop Jeff. You know, the one that puts it all together while I'm out with the family watching my son play softball when I'd rather be playing softball instead.
Thanks to Owens fabricating skills and all the equipment him and his father have at the shop, I'm looking forward to getting this all put together and hitting the grid. Not sure if I'll get it transformed from its current state for tonight, but it's my goal for the day.
- 1,545
- California
- Push-The-DZ
Sorry guys no racing for me tonight, my sister is going off to college so this is the last day I'll see her before later this year.
- 1,837
- Fullerton ca
- TRL_Importlife
Congrats to calden592 for making it in the gt academy nationals
You used another psn I'd ?
You used another psn I'd ?
- 7,689
- Michigan
- Rallywgn81
Looks like you have a fun time ahead of you today! Man, do I ever want to get started on my new rig, been perusing the hardware section for the past few months pretty hard getting ideas. looks like yours will be pretty comfy and easy to store away. Be sure to post pics of the final product.So, all, here is what happens when you take Owens this;
How awesome it is that we have SNAILs so willing to help each other out. 👍 We are a great community.
- 4,157
- Virginia
- Wolfsatz
I think it will make some drivers more aggressive as everyone will aim for that 1st place even more....talk about 1st turn Mega Chaos!
Leave it as is....why brake something is working pretty darn good!
- 5,917
- Texas
- zer05ive
No offense Dragon, but the comment I quoted above is an indication to me that your eyes started to dim before you read all the way to the bottom.
Simply put, this new proposal was designed specifically to prevent your "WTF?" scenario from happening in the first place. Perhaps you may be in favor of the new proposal and not even realize it. 
With the current system, you could finish with a perfect 100, but if your division had fewer drivers, you could be screwed out of a prize because a negative multiplier would be applied to your score. With the proposed system, if you win every race, your score remains perfect. No points are "shaved of the top" as a punishment for the smaller grid size. Because of this, every division has an equal chance to win prizes and it's no longer skewed to favor divisions with larger grids.
This discussion isn't about whether or not we should have modifiers. Without modifiers, the division with the lowest number of drivers will win the prizes, end of story. That lame and simply unacceptable. There's no sense in rewarding divisions for low turnout. 👎
Rather, this discussion is about which modifier is the better and fairer way to compare one's performance among their peers when everyone is competing against a varying number of said peers. I like the new proposal because it simply takes the number of points that can be awarded in each race, then it divides that number by the number of drivers who are competing for it. Once that increment is identified (the value of x), we award 1st place with 16 points as usual and then every other driver is awarded one less increment than the driver who finished in front of him. Simple and effective IMO.
Also, your comment in your first reply about this being "not for prize awards, but for the season championship points" is inaccurate. This proposal is, as I've stated in every results post since last November, "for prize purposes only".
- 5,917
- Texas
- zer05ive
Thanks for the heads up, DZ! Family first! 👍
calden592 is just his gtplanet username. The PSN ID he qualified under is BRSbeckett.
- 7,711
- Indiana-USA
- OwensRacing
Along with those six veteran Snails, add rookie Snail calden592 to the list for a total of seven. He qualified 54th in the GTA time trial and is going to NYC too.
Btw Owens, what's your take on this? You were the catalyst behind all of it, so I'd like to know your thoughts on:
y = number of drivers in the race
x = 16/y
z = number of positions behind 1st place
16 - zx = points awarded
This new factoring still has some relevance to people that show up. However it is driven towards performance and less towards attendance. So in comparison to the previous factor. It's a major step forward.
Being that these factors weigh in on grid size. The ability to entice and promote grid size would be nice. The prizes being offered help. Wheels stand now Buttkicker. I'm thinking of immediate reward for showing up.
If its possible to get a plus 1 point for continuous weeks. Basically if you show up the week before you get +1 on you score total. If you was busy and couldn't make it. You get no bonus. So basically your new factor with a attendance bonus. Let it compile for the month maybe. By fourth race. One could get +3 - +4.
So those that don't show or can't. Are not "punished". Those that do make sacrifices and try to attend every event get their bonus.
This should be relative to all races for the night. You race say 3 of 6. You get a .5 bonus then next week race all 6. You get 1.5. Then next week 3 of 6. You get 2 bonus. The guy that runs all races all month gets 4 bonus on the last night.
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Oh my. I think I've got this figured out. Maybe! Rally's post has got my mind into something.
Ok let's say the reverse grids get bonus points.
Basically you win first race and finish first in second race with a grid of 6. You moved up 5 spots to gain you win. So you get 5 bonus points for positions gained on top of the finish points.
Maybe even half that value. If you come from 16th to win. You get 8 bonus points. Truly you fought hard and earned that win here.
So you get a bonus for the positions gained in reverse grids. That is all. All other points based on finish and only modifier is position gained.
No take aways for going backwards.
This with the attendance bonus is full of win!!!
Or just the attendance bonus and perfect 100.
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JLBowler
Premium
- 7,989
- California
- JLBowler
The new idea would still skew the results toward the larger rooms for this reason. 3rd place in a room with 12 would be worth more than 3rd place in a room with 7 because the gap would be smaller between positions in the larger room. It may be less of an impact than the current multiplier or it may be more of an impact. We truly won't know unless we test it or apply this formula to the last couple of months of racing and compare the differences to the current system. (That's what I did when I created the system we currently use)
The proposed change does protect a driver that scores a perfect 100 but I don't know that it really accurately compares other drivers scores across divisions. It would be accurate in comparing drivers that finished last in every race as they're scores would be identical. It would not be the same at any other position if the rooms have different numbers of drivers.
Since it is just for prize determination, wouldn't it be simpler to put a clause in any system that would allow for any driver that earned 100 pts to be awarded Prize A no matter how many drivers are in their division for that night? If there are two drivers that get 100 in the same night, the tie-breaker could be larger grid size.
Edit: @ Owens idea of bonus points in reverse grid races. Do you really want to encourage drivers to be more aggressive in trying to make passes in the reverse grid races?
The proposed change does protect a driver that scores a perfect 100 but I don't know that it really accurately compares other drivers scores across divisions. It would be accurate in comparing drivers that finished last in every race as they're scores would be identical. It would not be the same at any other position if the rooms have different numbers of drivers.
Since it is just for prize determination, wouldn't it be simpler to put a clause in any system that would allow for any driver that earned 100 pts to be awarded Prize A no matter how many drivers are in their division for that night? If there are two drivers that get 100 in the same night, the tie-breaker could be larger grid size.
Edit: @ Owens idea of bonus points in reverse grid races. Do you really want to encourage drivers to be more aggressive in trying to make passes in the reverse grid races?
Sorry. 
kcheeb
Premium
- 4,753
- Alberta
- kcheeb
- kcheeb
I built this spreadsheet from the first two weeks of August for zer0 yesterday
The data it has is:
1. the current adjustment formula
2. the current adjustment formula, with a way to change the values used, factor and driver base count.
3. the new formula
It compares each of the categories nine ways from Sunday, or thereabouts
JLBowler
Premium
- 7,989
- California
- JLBowler
If I'm looking at the spreadsheet right, I see some serious flaws with what is labeled as the new adjustment. How is it possible, or right in any way, for someone who scores 81 pts in a division to be adjusted to a better position than someone who scored 88 in the same division? That should be a giant red flag that something is wrong with that adjustment scenario.
- 5,917
- Texas
- zer05ive
Okay, thanks for giving your opinion on the current system vs. the proposed system. That's actually what I'd like everyone to do really.
As for your suggestion of an attendance bonus, I think it has some potential but not entirely sure it makes sense. The main drawback I see is say someone comes in on the last week of the season and wins his division by 3 points and also scores enough to win Prize A. With attendance bonuses in play, he could have his Prize A taken away by the driver who finished second but also got a 4 point bonus and leapfrogged him with it. So while the drivers who don't race as often aren't necessary punished by having points taken away, they most certainly could be punished by having a prize taken away. Simply put, the prize winners could be drivers who don't even win their division, which I'm not so sure about.
Oh my indeed! I think think this suggestion is starting to make things a bit complicated. I like the idea of having one "simple" formula for all the races, regardless of how "Fastest First" or "Reverse-Grid" and regardless of how many drivers are on the grids. No bonuses, just one formula. I think feel like 16 - z(16/y) = points awarded accomplishes that goal (or at least does so better than the current formula).
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- 5,917
- Texas
- zer05ive
I built this spreadsheet from the first two weeks of August for zer0 yesterday
The data it has is:
1. the current adjustment formula
2. the current adjustment formula, with a way to change the values used, factor and driver base count.
3. the new formula
It compares each of the categories nine ways from Sunday, or thereabouts
Thanks cheeb. As always your data-fu is simply amazing!
In fact, when comparing your data with the adjusted results I listed at the bottom of this post, I realized that I made a serious error when adding up EAO-HarleyMan's score. I'll get that corrected asap.
It's because myato1 actually scored 90 points. The only reason he's listed at 81 is because he collected 9 penalty points. With that in mind, is it okay to lower that giant red flag?
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- 1,746
- Aurora, CO
- Skills_19657
Hi brianm3,
Thanks for your interest!
We would love to have you in the league. Here's what you need to know and do in order to join:
We run a clean league by enforcing a strict penalty system based on the S.N.A.I.L. OLR (which is a modified version of the GTP OLR). We also expect all of our drivers to know and follow The Good Racecraft Guide.
Please become versed in both if you aren't already. Once that is complete, please follow the steps below to complete your entry into the league:
1. You run the Time Trial. (NOTE: The tires selected for this have more grip than our current tire regulations allow, but please follow the directions exactly anyways).
2. You PM kcheeb with your time from the time trial (no Sunday racing until this is completed).
3. We assign you to the division that we feel will give you the closest competition. kcheeb will add you to the drivers list.
4. We send you a you a PSN friend request from the corresponding SNAIL_Division1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 account. That PSN account's lounge is where you will race on Sunday night.
5. You drive fast and clean on Sunday 👍
The original post has everything you need to know about what to expect on Sunday night and what you will need to have completed in order to be competitive. If you have any questions, please feel free to post your question on the thread.
Please note that we often race DLC from three add-on packs:
Racing Car Pack
Course Pack
Twin Ring Motegi Pack
If you don't have these add-on packs, you will need to sit out the races in which they are used.
If you have a preference for car/wheel colour and racing number, please follow the instruction contained here.
To avoid duplication, the currently claimed combinations can be found here.
During the week we run a number of different events, we encourage all SNAILs to join as many as possible.
Welcome to S.N.A.I.L.
- 5,917
- Texas
- zer05ive
Hi Brian, thanks for your interest. Skills will be along shortly with your official welcome post, but in the interest of time, you might want to take a peek at his previous welcome post.
Based on the rather impressive credentials in your sig, your time trial placement is likely a given, but we require all new members to run it all the same. Once you do that, start breaking in the three cars, or just post a request for some help with duping cars if there's not enough time (league night starts in five hours).
EDIT: Ninja'd by Skills!
- 7,689
- Michigan
- Rallywgn81
Finishing up some duping then heading to d3. Anyone interested in doing some racecraft practice with the combos?
Opening up the room now.
Opening up the room now.
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JLBowler
Premium
- 7,989
- California
- JLBowler
Thanks cheeb. As always your data-fu is simply amazing!
In fact, when comparing your data with the adjusted results I listed at the bottom of this post, I realized that I made a serious error when adding up EAO-HarleyMan's score. I'll get that corrected asap.
It's because myato1 actually scored 90 points. The only reason he's listed at 81 is because he collected 9 penalty points. With that in mind, is it okay to lower that giant red flag?
I'll put the big red flag down but I will wave a smaller one. On Aug. 3 Owens scored 84 pts., Worst and Martin both had 85 in the same division and Owens would have been ranked higher than both of them. Nobody in that group received a penalty so how is that one explained?
I guess that begs the question, how would you compute the adjusted total (for prizes) if a division winner received a penalty but still won their division? How would the penalty be adjusted out of the equation?
I'm only ten lines in and looking at this in between doing the honey-do list. There could be more that would need to be looked at. At first glance, it appears to favor winning individual races over being consistent for the entire night.
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- 7,711
- Indiana-USA
- OwensRacing
Had a good weekend. Got to meet Eric aka Dragonwhisky in person. He and I finished up some mods to his rig. Had some good times chatting. Enjoying so Chivas Regal 18. Hopefully his wife doesn't want to kill me after he got to try triples and dual buttkickers. I started to film him just a lil late. His earlier reactions prompted me to chase down my phone to document this. Anyway here is a video of Eric's maiden voyage on my rig.
Surely he will give his review of how it was.
Surely he will give his review of how it was.
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