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[kcheeb]

I did mention the E-Type. Low on power, primitive suspension, looks fantastic.

👍

 

[JLBowler]

You guys are focusing way too much on the "Comfort/Sports/Racing" labels that PD uses. Those are nothing more than convenient ways for PD to identify the nine different tire grades available in the game. The key word there is "game". We can never forget that we are playing a video game and that the amount of grip and the rate of wear we experience for each tire grade is merely a result of calculations made by the GT5 physics engine. As players change the tire grades used, the variables in the calculation made by the physics engine also change. Here's a simplified example of how the variables for grip and tire life might correlate in the game:

• Tire Grade A - Grip=9 / Life=1
• Tire Grade B - Grip=8 / Life=2
• Tire Grade C - Grip=7 / Life=3
• Tire Grade D - Grip=6 / Life=4
• Tire Grade E - Grip=5 / Life=5
• Tire Grade F - Grip=4 / Life=6
• Tire Grade G - Grip=3 / Life=7
• Tire Grade H - Grip=2 / Life=8
• Tire Grade I. - Grip=1 / Life=9

Obviously, PD can't refer to these correlations as "Tire Grade A", 'Tire Grade B", and "Tire Grade C", so they refer to them in terms that we're more familiar with like "Racing Soft", "Racing Medium" and "Racing Hard" (and so on down the line).



I never said we were going after realism, I said we were going after "more realistic grip levels". The big difference between you and I is that you put a lot of stock in the accuracy of the labels that PD puts on the tire grades, while I share the opinion of the guys (Vol, for example) who think that tires grades simply represent grip multipliers that are applied in a physics engine.



Okay, fair enough. If you have some time, would you mind running some laps in this week's Nissan Silvia SPEC-R Aero RM with both tire grades? First run them on Racing Hards, then run them on Sports Softs. Then try to forget about the labels of "Racing" and "Sports" that PD assigned to the tire grades, and ask yourself which tire grade felt more realistic to you.

To be clear, I'm not asking you to do this while claiming to know the answer myself. I don't have any real life racing experience while you do. I'm asking you to do this purely from the stand point of wanting to know what your opinion is. But again, the key part of my request is that you forget about the "Racing" and "Sports" labels and just keep an open mind about that.

I already ran the silvia on sports tires. I qualified on them last Sunday. The car felt fine. It was more challenging than being on the racing tires but not impossible to drive by any means. My major concern about lowering the tire grades is that tire wear is being taken completely out of the league with the exception of a few cars that may get used. I realize we are only running ten minute races so maybe the intent of the league was never to have tire wear be a factor.

 

[kcheeb]

I already ran the silvia on sports tires. I qualified on them last Sunday. The car felt fine. It was more challenging than being on the racing tires but not impossible to drive by any means. My major concern about lowering the tire grades is that tire wear is being taken completely out of the league with the exception of a few cars that may get used. I realize we are only running ten minute races so maybe the intent of the league was never to have tire wear be a factor.

There have only been a couple of races that tire wear has been something I've been concerned about in the time I've been in the league.

So I'm guessing tire wear was not high on the list of considerations when the league was put together. You're right, at 5 to 7 laps we're seldom going to be worried about tire wear and it will be limited to Racing Soft tires.

 

[JLBowler]

I hear what you and others are saying with respect to Race Cars and Race Tires. It doesn't sound right.

Last night I was a little anxious about running the Sylvia on Sport Softs at Nurburgring GP/F. As it turns out, it was a blast and felt good from a driving the car perspective, rather than feeling more like it was on rails.

Bottom line is we're tweaking the tire/pp combinations to try and make the cars require a little more driving. If it turns out it's not working, we'll tweak it again. That will be based on what we experience and the feedback we get from club members 👍

Here's my feedback. I want the most grip I can get. If you ask anybody who has raced anything competitively, they will tell you the same thing. If they say they would prefer to have less grip they are lying to you or are a drifter. I also want tire wear to be a factor in races.

 

[dabneyd]

I already ran the silvia on sports tires. I qualified on them last Sunday. The car felt fine. It was more challenging than being on the racing tires but not impossible to drive by any means. My major concern about lowering the tire grades is that tire wear is being taken completely out of the league with the exception of a few cars that may get used. I realize we are only running ten minute races so maybe the intent of the league was never to have tire wear be a factor.

Tire wear will be an issue on the 8C. They start to wear on the out lap.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I already ran the silvia on sports tires. I qualified on them last Sunday. The car felt fine. It was more challenging than being on the racing tires but not impossible to drive by any means. My major concern about lowering the tire grades is that tire wear is being taken completely out of the league with the exception of a few cars that may get used. I realize we are only running ten minute races so maybe the intent of the league was never to have tire wear be a factor.

I know I'm a crappy driver and shouldn't be asking for this, but I do so enjoy it...

maybe we can have the occasional non-boosted enduro where wear is an issue. Maybe with weather and time change.

 

[Apmaddock]

Like on Saturdays?

 

[kcheeb]

Here's my feedback. I want the most grip I can get. If you ask anybody who has raced anything competitively, they will tell you the same thing. If they say they would prefer to have less grip they are lying to you or are a drifter.

No doubt, from a drivers perspective if it makes it easier to get around the course, you don't have to be careful about using your right foot. Just brake turn and mash.

That's how I drove in GT5 for a long time. Me and a few buddies would drive everything with Racing Soft tires, because it made it easier for us. We had no idea how to control the car with the accelerator. I'm much better at it now, partly because of my time in S.N.A.I.L. and partly because my buddies and I decided to change the tire selection up. We have to drive the cars now.

I also want tire wear to be a factor in races.

From my limited experience with this, we'd need to do longer races to make tire wear a real factor in our races, perhaps even force a pit stop. This would require a change in the format as we run six races in 2 hours. Which was changed from nine races in 2 hours.

I'm not sure that's going to happen as the reverse grid is an integral part of the philosophy of S.N.A.I.L.

We do have two events where tire wear is a big factor, Diabolic Fridays and the Saturday M3 Challenge. Perhaps they could sate your desire to burn through rubber

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Like on Saturdays?

Except, not on Saturday.

Though, I've been too busy to really do much more than the Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday evenings that I do.

I might be able to get on to do some practice tonight, we'll see. As much as I hate it, my Bobs are running the 8C around Laguna Seca right now. Stock, it is doing so well against the other cars that it looks like it would be fun to do.

 

[JLBowler]

From my limited experience with this, we'd need to do longer races to make tire wear a real factor in our races, perhaps even force a pit stop. This would require a change in the format as we run six races in 2 hours. Which was changed from nine races in 2 hours.

I'm not sure that's going to happen as the reverse grid is an integral part of the philosophy of S.N.A.I.L.

We do have two events where tire wear is a big factor, Diabolic Fridays and the Saturday M3 Challenge. Perhaps they could sate your desire to burn through rubber [/QUOTE]

I'm burning through real rubber on Friday and Saturday nights for the foreseeable future.

The race with the Vette a couple of weeks ago was on race mediums and tire wear was a factor. The race with the 380 at Daytona Road would have allowed tire wear to be a factor if it weren't for the change in policy while that race was on the schedule. I'm not saying every race should be run with racing softs to force tire wear, I'm just saying I'd like to see it once in a while. By lowering the tire scale, the league is making it less and less possible that any race will ever force a driver to take care of their tires and manage the wear.

 

[Psycho Turtle]

Ah, the good ol' days.

👍

 

[fzappa]

I hear what you and others are saying with respect to Race Cars and Race Tires. It doesn't sound right.

Last night I was a little anxious about running the Sylvia on Sport Softs at Nurburgring GP/F. As it turns out, it was a blast and felt good from a driving the car perspective, rather than feeling more like it was on rails.

Bottom line is we're tweaking the tire/pp combinations to try and make the cars require a little more driving. If it turns out it's not working, we'll tweak it again. That will be based on what we experience and the feedback we get from club members 👍

I thought the sport softs on the Silvia were going to make that RM car very hard to control but after running it in practice last night that was not the case. It was pretty darn good and I think the tire change for this car is going to make for some really good racing.
NOTE: Don't forget Sharkies Tutoring tonight! Be there or be square!

 

[Psycho Turtle]

Here is a Happy Medium

Up to 325 PP -> Comfort Mediums
326-375 PP ---> Comfort Softs
376-425 PP ---> Sports Hards
426-475 PP ---> Sports Mediums
476-525 PP ---> Sports Softs
526-575 PP ---> Racing Hards
576-625 PP ---> Racing Mediums
626 PP & up --> Racing Softs

It even keeps Sharkie happy with 50 point increments.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

I read the line was 85 posts for tire wear...I took the over so all is well. 👍

 

[JLBowler]

After taking a quick look at the dealership cars and looking at what combos have been voted off and how quickly they were voted off. The new system makes a little more sense.

Every time tire wear has been an issue in a race, it has been voted off after one week. This tells me that the majority wants nothing to do with tires wearing out. I found in the dealership that there are only 4 cars that would get fitted with racing soft tires and just over a dozen that would get racing mediums.

I guess this is a good thing becasue anytime any of them got used, they would just get voted off so not having too many of them to choose from is what the majority wants. I will just have to live with being in the minority on this one.

 

[Rallywagon]

I feel ya bowler, I actually liked the other tire standards, except when tire wear started becoming an issue!

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Every time tire wear has been an issue in a race, it has been voted off after one week. This tells me that the majority wants nothing to do with tires wearing out. I found in the dealership that there are only 4 cars that would get fitted with racing soft tires and just over a dozen that would get racing mediums.

This is ice cream and strokes. Those cars probably got voted off not because of tire wear but because of poor handling/LSD (which lead to excessive tire wear). Those cars will probably perform even worse under the new tire regime and be voted off even faster.

 

[zer05ive]

After taking a quick look at the dealership cars and looking at what combos have been voted off and how quickly they were voted off. The new system makes a little more sense.

Every time tire wear has been an issue in a race, it has been voted off after one week. This tells me that the majority wants nothing to do with tires wearing out. I found in the dealership that there are only 4 cars that would get fitted with racing soft tires and just over a dozen that would get racing mediums.

I guess this is a good thing becasue anytime any of them got used, they would just get voted off so not having too many of them to choose from is what the majority wants. I will just have to live with being in the minority on this one.

What if we changed our Wednesday night format so that only three races were ran in the two-hour time slot instead of the usual six? In other words, have only one race per combo instead of two. That would allow each race to be about 25 minutes each and tire wear would certainly be a concern. Even if it's not, we could require a mandatory pit stop to force the issue. Thoughts?

 

[Apmaddock]

This is ice cream and strokes.

What? Must be a southern thing. To me this smacks of perversion.

Really, Psycho? Here's what I run in A-Spec.

≤350 ----------> Comfort Hards
351-400 PP ---> Comfort Mediums
401-450 PP ---> Comfort Softs
451-500 PP ---> Sports Hards
501-550 PP ---> Sports Mediums
551-600 PP ---> Sports Softs
601-650 PP ---> Racing Hards
651-700 PP ---> Racing Mediums
701 PP & up --> Racing Softs

...and sometimes in the highest levels I'll stay with RH.

 

[Apmaddock]

What if we changed our Wednesday night format so that only three races were ran in the two-hour time slot instead of the usual six? In other words, have only one race per combo instead of two. That would allow each race to be about 25 minutes each and tire wear would certainly be a concern. Even if it's not, we could require a mandatory pit stop to force the issue. Thoughts?

That kinda defeats the point of practicing like you compete, doesn't it?

 

[kcheeb]

What if we changed our Wednesday night format so that only three races were ran in the two-hour time slot instead of the usual six? In other words, have only one race per combo instead of two. That would allow each race to be about 25 minutes each and tire wear would certainly be a concern. Even if it's not, we could require a mandatory pit stop to force the issue. Thoughts?

That would be cool, we'd not be able to run anything out of the ordinary after as we'd be using the whole two hours. We do however have plenty of choices for alternate forms of racing

All we'd need to do would be to double the laps and the timeframe should fit. We'd likely need to mandate a pitstop for anything less than racing tires as 8 - 14 laps on sports tires or less is not likely going to force you to stop.

On Friday and Saturday it's quite interesting having to adjust braking points and how aggressive to be on the right pedal.

EDIT: it does definitely change the format of the night. But we're all about change right

 

[Chiochan]

why not let the person who chooses the car also choose the tires?

 

[JLBowler]

I'm with Ap on this one. Wednesday should be a dry run for Sunday so it would make sense to practice like we're going to race.

 

[Apmaddock]

why not let the person who chooses the car also choose the tires?

Because then nobody would be happy.

We're better off with a league standard that's a take it or leave it kind of deal. If you're here for RS racing, you're in the wrong place. If you're in the league for enduros, you're also (primarily) in the wrong place. If you're here for drifting, you're in the wrong place.

With tire level based on PP, one can reasonably assume that we're getting a similar feel for each car in a PP bracket, with only the car's individual characteristics changing that feel. Muddying that just makes things more difficult all around.

 

[Chiochan]

OK, I will agree with that. on a side not i was checking out the 8C and i LOVE how the stock rims match the fog lights.

 

[kcheeb]

I'm with Ap on this one. Wednesday should be a dry run for Sunday so it would make sense to practice like we're going to race.

Fair enough, it is one of the few nights I actually run the combos for Sunday

 

[zer05ive]

below 300 PP -> Comfort Mediums
300-350 PP ---> Comfort Softs
351-400 PP ---> Sports Hards
401-450 PP ---> Sports Mediums
451-500 PP ---> Sports Softs
501-550 PP ---> Racing Hards
551-600 PP ---> Racing Mediums
601 PP & up --> Racing Softs​

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but each tire is suppose to have a total window of 50 PP. Comfort Soft has a margin of 51 PP
Comfort Mediums should be 300 or less - not 299 or less.

I'm with Devious. Every range starts at mark that ends in 1, except Comfort Soft. It just makes sense that Comfort Soft would be 301 to 350. Again, it just makes it consistent.

Okay, this will be how we segment our new tire restrictions:

below 300 PP -> Comfort Mediums
300-349 PP ---> Comfort Softs
350-399 PP ---> Sports Hards
400-449 PP ---> Sports Mediums
450-499 PP ---> Sports Softs
500-549 PP ---> Racing Hards
550-599 PP ---> Racing Mediums
600 PP & up --> Racing Softs​

It's much cleaner-looking since the first number of each PP range is a rounded-off number. Each PP range is also evenly divided at 50 PP's each. All in all, it's just much easier on the eyes IMO. I actually can't believe I didn't create this version from the start.

That being said, the astute snail will immediately notice that Round 3 of this Sunday's races would be affected by this change since the Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08 is listed in the Dealership at exactly 500 PP.

Do you guys want to go ahead and change Round 3 to Racing Hards to align with this new (and correct) version of the tire restrictions? Or would you wallow in pain and anguish at the thought of all the blood, sweat, and tears that you spent dialing in your Alfa Romeo 8C's on Sports Softs all going to waste?

 

[Rallywagon]

OK, I will agree with that. on a side not i was checking out the 8C and i LOVE how the stock rims match the fog lights.

Yeah, I couldn't bring myself to change the rims.

 

[JLBowler]

I agree there needs to be a leaguewide standard for tires used. I would only like to caution in the future going down another level. Not because there isn't enough grip for the cars on sports or even comfort tires but because you would be slowly shutting out the use of anything that would allow wear to factor in.

Most of what I have run in the past has been between 550 and 625 pp on sports soft or less tires so the tire grip isn't an issue for me. We always allowed tuning but that was very time consuming. The fact that this league doesn't allow for tuning (my main reason for joining) means that there needs to be some sort of compensation through tires for the crappy suspension settings that are stock in the game.

If it were up to me to make a scale for tires, I would probably have two of them. One scale for production cars and another for race cars/rm cars. I would want the vast majority or even all of the production cars on sports tires and all race cars/rm cars on racing tires. It would really make two differnet types of racing in the league. The production cars would be just as we are running now and the racing/rm cars would be focused more toward tire management.

Edit: Normally, I would say run the racing hards, but because it's Thursday and many have already begun to practice with the sports softs, I would vote for leaving the sports tires on it. It's really a lot of fun to drive.

 

[kcheeb]

Do you guys want to go ahead and change Round 3 to Racing Hards to align with this new (and correct) version of the tire restrictions? Or would you wallow in pain and anguish at the thought of all the blood, sweat, and tears that you spent dialing in your Alfa Romeo 8C's on Sports Softs all going to waste?

Not to mention we'll have to reimburse the $6000 for Sport Softs