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[Apmaddock]

To spot check a driver, it would really only take about a minute or two for each race.

Plus two minutes of loading time and all of the time required to up/download the replays and load them onto your PS3.

This week there were no complaints. Wasn't it nice?

I'm certainly not going to load replays to check/double check brake balance. I don't even want to wait for posts in the steward forum regarding it if you take charge of it, Bowler.

What brake balance setting you use?

I use 2/1 for anything rear wheel drive. FF or 4WD might be different: even or rear-biased.

I would rather not feel like I have to spend an extra hour each week making sure that the BB is set optimally for the 2 new combos.

You don't. Once you figure out what works for you for a particular car configuration you can pretty well rest assured that it will work for every other car of that configuration.

Every car that I use in A-Spec is set the same way. The first time I drive anything with rear wheel drive I set it to my default ratio and leave it that way unless something really odd is happening (which I can't recall ever actually witnessing.)



I'm terrible at tuning cars and have no real interest in fiddling with that. I don't think this qualifies.

I think you guys are just getting a little carried away

Pretty much.

 

[DrKronin]

By that logic, none of us should practice then as that gives us an advantage

Ha! Good point, but I think practice falls on the side of improving the driver, as opposed to the car. Granted, the distinction gets pretty fuzzy once you enter the feedback loop of driver improvement informing car setup causing driver improvement, etc.

And you're right, we are taking this waaaay too seriously. I'm kinda like nerding out about this kinda stuff. I'm less interested in the conclusion (I'll be fine with whatever path SNAIL ends up taking) than the debate

 

[JLBowler]

Quoted from APmaddock: I use 2/1 for anything rear wheel drive. FF or 4WD might be different: even or rear-biased.
end quote

Unless you're running with ABS off, that is why you're not stopping any faster than anyone else.

From experimentation, there are definite advantages to be gained from tuning the brake balance. I don't care either way if it's legal or not, I'm also not going to change mine. That's just my personal stance on it and I don't expect my personal opinion to change anyones mind.

 

[zer05ive]

From a steward standpoint, even if what dsgerbc is saying is true, I sure as hell don't want to police it.

The biggest downside to disallowing brake balance adjustments is that we have to police it manually since GT5 won't do it for us. However, if you have folks willing to help police it, it's less of an issue. Furthermore, it's not as if every singe race or even every single week has to be policed. For example, I would only take a glance at other drivers brake balances if I was already looking at the replay for another reason. I'd never feel inclined to review a replay just to look at brake balances.

I don't like it.

I don't feel like I gain a particular advantage having adjusted brake balance, I only feel like I'm gaining stability and control (at the likely loss of turn-in or trail braking). My car is certainly not stopping any faster than anyone else's.

Gaining stability and control seems like an advantage to me.

EDIT: DrKronin already said that - sorry for the redundancy.

 

[sethfraz22]

If we want to come to the best conclusion possible then we must forget what benefits ourselves & try to figure the best solution for the future Snail racing.

The way I see it there is two logical outcomes. Either we come up with some sort of brake balance guide for all Snails. Or we try & police it. It's not hard to tell who has there brake balance turned way up because then they will always be outbraking you. I feel like there is a significant edge to running your brake balance high. Increased stopping power will burn up your tires mores but we're mostly talking short races so tirewear doesn't come into play. This is all just my opinion.

 

[JLBowler]

Spec Racing
Spec racing (also called one-make racing) is a type of racing where everyone drives identical cars. We also prohibit tuning in order to ensure that success is determined solely by clean driving skill and not by differences in car power, gearing, suspension, weight, or aerodynamics. Because variables in the car are eliminated, spec racing is the truest measure of driver skill. It also produces intense battles for position because all cars are equally strong or weak in the same areas of the track. Another benefit of spec racing is that you'll never have to spend countless hours tuning cars. You'll also never have to wonder if someone is truly faster than you or if they just have better tuning skills.

Taken directly from the first post of this thread. Either change what's highlighted in red or disallow tuning of the brake balance. I don't care which way it goes but it's a contradiction at this point.

 

[zer05ive]

I don't quite know what to think. It seems to me you care so much about every little thing being equal and realistic even to the point of policing brake balance yet you don't have a problem with some people using an automatic transmission while others don't ? Isn't this just a preference ? Isn't brake balance just a preference ? How come everybody doesn't have to race from the same camera viewpoint ? Isn't your bumper cam and my cockpit view just a preference ? I think you guys are just getting a little carried away

Brake balance is indeed a preference, but it's also a form of tuning. Other things that are both preference and tuning include ride height, spring rate, camber, toe, etc.

The reason nobody care about camera angle is because while it is also a preference, it's in no way, shape, or form a form of tuning. Therefore, it does not change or alter the characteristics of how the car performs.

By that logic, none of us should practice then as that gives us an advantage

I'm going to have to assume you were being sarcastic, but let me know if I'm mistaken.

 

[Apmaddock]

I feel like there is a significant edge to running your brake balance high. Increased stopping power will burn up your tires mores but we're mostly talking short races so tirewear doesn't come into play. This is all just my opinion.

I disagree entirely. In fact, I'm running the Ford right now and tried a few laps at 2/1 and some at 10/9. My braking points were exactly the same.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Test it on route x. Pick a spot to apply 100 % braking and test where you stop with each setting.

 

[Apmaddock]

Okay. For the good of snailkind.

…though that's not the only factor in this discussion

 

[zer05ive]

Spec Racing
Spec racing (also called one-make racing) is a type of racing where everyone drives identical cars. We also prohibit tuning in order to ensure that success is determined solely by clean driving skill and not by differences in car power, gearing, suspension, weight, or aerodynamics. Because variables in the car are eliminated, spec racing is the truest measure of driver skill. It also produces intense battles for position because all cars are equally strong or weak in the same areas of the track. Another benefit of spec racing is that you'll never have to spend countless hours tuning cars. You'll also never have to wonder if someone is truly faster than you or if they just have better tuning skills.

Taken directly from the first post of this thread. Either change what's highlighted in red or disallow tuning of the brake balance. I don't care which way it goes but it's a contradiction at this point.

Good point. If anyone has forgotten what this league is all about, then please read or re-read the original post and pay special attention to the part about Spec Racing that Bowler copy and pasted above.

The fact that brake balance wasn't policed by the tuning prohibited option has always bothered me. I stated this fact exactly six months ago today and again in June.

The only difference now is that, thanks to dsgerbc's revelation, I now know for the first time ever that brake balance can actually be policed when before I never knew this was possible (and therefore felt we had to allow it).

 

[hillracing]

I did some light testing and found that it's definitely faster to adjust it at some tracks. I think to get the most out of it you'd have to adjust it corner to corner as at least for me the stock setting was faster through some segments and with it changed was faster through others. For example at Laguna with the civic I was .3 faster through the first sector with a changed bias than stock but for some reason slower by .2 through the next one and about the same through the last. To me that means about a half second difference if I change it during the lap. I think if I spent more time on it and really understood the brake settings better I could find more time on some tracks with some cars.

My thoughts on it are leave it legal to adjust but recommend that people share their brake settings with everyone else so there's no hidden advantage. You could make it mandatory that the pole sitter tell his brake settings after qualifying or something. Either that or say it has to remain stock and if found to be changed the driver has to miss a race or some sort of stiff penalty that no one would want to receive. I have to say one of the attractions to me about this league is the idea that there is no tuning at all so allowing brake tuning does take away from that a little I think. Just my .02

 

[Chiochan]

Brake balance adjustment is allowed under tuning restricted regulations. I think this is because it doesn't really give anyone an advantage over anyone else. I realize that you can slightly shorten your braking, but mostly I use it to better control the car and not wreak myself and my competition. I also really enjoy figuring out what balance I will use for said car, especially when I don't care for that combo to much. It gives me a more personalized feeling and more depth to my races, that, without BB I would lose.

Maybe when the car is chosen BB could be chosen also?

 

[Apmaddock]

thanks to dsgerbc's revelation

Yeah. Thanks, dsgerbc...

After testing I'll eat my words: You totally do stop faster with higher brake balance numbers. Not a lot but enough.

Basically, lower brake balance is more stable and higher stops you faster. Easy enough to figure out.

I'm pretty much with goat…save for the last line.

 

[Dragonwar233]

Guys you can't regulate it I did a test with a friend and he started with 3/9 brake balance but set it to 2/10 with his wheel in the race and the replay doesn't show his mid-race adjustments.

So I guess we should allow it and I don't know why but I can't make mid-race adjustments because with the DFGT and I try to roll the RA thing it goes up too much and sometimes it goes down when I'm trying to increase brake bias. The only way I could actually make adjustments during race without it taking 1 minute is to maybe use my ds3

 

[Chiochan]

I don't really agree with that last line either. No compromise! lol

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

How do I review in replay races? I have my g27 mapped but the r/a menu isn't available. What did I miss?

I need a new keyboard.....

 

[zer05ive]

I did some light testing and found that it's definitely faster to adjust it at some tracks. I think to get the most out of it you'd have to adjust it corner to corner as at least for me the stock setting was faster through some segments and with it changed was faster through others. For example at Laguna with the civic I was .3 faster through the first sector with a changed bias than stock but for some reason slower by .2 through the next one and about the same through the last. To me that means about a half second difference if I change it during the lap. I think if I spent more time on it and really understood the brake settings better I could find more time on some tracks with some cars.

This brings up two points. First, that adjusting brake balance can create an advantage when done correctly. Second, that it takes time to for people to figure out what brake balance is best for them. These facts do not mesh with the fact that we advertise this as a "No Tuning" and "Minimum Hassle" league.

My thoughts on it are leave it legal to adjust but recommend that people share their brake settings with everyone else so there's no hidden advantage. You could make it mandatory that the pole sitter tell his brake settings after qualifying or something. Either that or say it has to remain stock and if found to be changed the driver has to miss a race or some sort of stiff penalty that no one would want to receive. I have to say one of the attractions to me about this league is the idea that there is no tuning at all so allowing brake tuning does take away from that a little I think. Just my .02

Click here to see the penalty I had in mind if we were to implement this rule. I'm pretty sure that would be enough of a deterrent.

 

[DrKronin]

Guys you can't regulate it I did a test with a friend and he started with 3/9 brake balance but set it to 2/10 with his wheel in the race and the replay doesn't show his mid-race adjustments.

If that's (sadly) true, this discussion is basically over...

 

[Apmaddock]

Holy hell you're right, Bronco. I'm replaying my testing at Route X and the brake balance doesn't change.

Thanks the Gods for oversight.

 

[Apmaddock]

How do I review in replay Moses? I have my g27 mapped but the r/a menu isn't available. What did I miss?

It seems to only come up sometime after the start of the race.

Sorry for the DP. Figured the thread would move fast enough to leave me behind.

 

[TRL_Importlife]

Any one care to joi me for some practice laps

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Any one care to joi me for some practice laps

No. You probably changed you BB.

 

[zer05ive]

Guys you can't regulate it I did a test with a friend and he started with 3/9 brake balance but set it to 2/10 with his wheel in the race and the replay doesn't show his mid-race adjustments.

Holy hell you're right, Bronco. I'm replaying my testing at Route X and the brake balance doesn't change.

Thanks the Gods for oversight.

Just when I was about to forgive PD for botching the tuning-prohibited setting, they come through in rare form again.. Thanks a lot, Kaz!

Sorry for wasting everyone's time.. This discussion is over.

 

[Dragonwar233]

You guys need to actually test something before you get in a discussion Lol. We can't regulate there just isn't anyway and its PD's fault I say we deal with it and for anybody that cares I use 8/6 and 6/9 BB @ all tracks depending on car and track.

As for time it only takes a lap to figure out if your car is too unstable or it understeers.

 

[dsgerbc]

Serves you right, guys, for believing me in the first place =)
I'm kinda glad I'm wrong.

 

[TRL_Importlife]

No. You probably changed you BB.

Lol I've never touched my breaks only tried it out. Today

 

[pilmat]

If you set the BB in the tune menu, it shows in the replay. But if you set in in the race, the replay always show the tune menu (default 5/5).

 

[Apmaddock]

Well, I am going to have to re-think my brake balance, now…maybe.

 

[TRL_Importlife]

Sence everyones in here talking about there breaks I'll open a practice room 👍