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  • Thread starter zer05ive
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It seems to me that using a shifter to shift abnormally fast; thereby increasing your cars performance, would fall under these rules from the SNAIL OLR:

N: You must not use any cheats or bugs in the game. The use of cheats or bugs affecting the cars performance is forbidden.

O: The use of external cheats is forbidden.


It seems that Polyphony (or perhaps the FIA) agrees.
I would agree that anything that gives someone an unfair advantage should not be allowed in a spec racing environment where putting everyone on an equal playing field is the desired result. That being said, with no way to enforce the rule in game you are just asking the stewards to spend more time looking at a race to see if someone is using trick shifting.
 
So tried the manu cup last night. Start second driving the corvette. Leader makes a mistake on lap 2 that gives him a 2 second penalty. We enter the penalty area, he ghosts only he doesn't and I somehow hit him losing Dr and time. End up finishing 3 secs behind him.

I love the ghosting in GT Sport.
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I got a shifter to compete and so did Sam. We had to. It was our best option to move to the top of the leaderboard in D1. I then got the Fanatec wheel, and the nights I raced I was at the front of the nonshifter group and it sucks. So I bought a new shifter and a week later, PD made a shifter change. No big deal in my eyes and I really feel like everyone was closer together in the 787B combo. I’d be all for the lobby settings having the option of turning the “advantage” off. Making it 1 or the other.
 
Using the shifter the way it was intended, for all up shifts and all down shifts with the proper (in game) use of the clutch would most likely not be considered a bug, glitch, or cheat.

Using the shifter the way it has been described here where one just presses the clutch and the car jumps into whichever gear is selected on the shifter and then the user goes back to the paddles is, in my mind, cheating and exploiting a glitch in the game.

It's really just like the brake balance rule. SNAIL doesn't allow it but doesn't have an effective way to police it so it comes down to the integrity, or lack of integrity, of the individual.
The difference between adjusting brake balance and using the shifter exploit is that adjusting your brake balance; while contrary to the rules of SNAIL (You may not adjust any other setting), is in no way an exploit, bug, or glitch. It works the way the developers intended it to.
 
The difference between adjusting brake balance and using the shifter exploit is that adjusting your brake balance; while contrary to the rules of SNAIL (You may not adjust any other setting), is in no way an exploit, bug, or glitch. It works the way the developers intended it to.

The similarity is that both are very difficult to prove that it's been done which makes it's almost impossible to police. This means that the use of these items has to fall back to the integrity, or lack of integrity, of the individual.

The use of a shifter (if we count the shifter as an exploit, bug, or glitch) is against the rules of SNAIL as is the adjustment of brake balance so how are they really any different?
 
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The similarity is that both are very difficult to prove that it's been done which makes it's almost impossible to police. This means that the use of these items has to fall back to the integrity, or lack of integrity, of the individual.

The use of both (if we count the shifter as an exploit, bug, or glitch) is against the rules of SNAIL as is the adjustment of brake balance so how are they really any different?
Following the same logic. How is there any difference between not changing the rules to allow something; but not enforcing that rule either, and changing the rules to allow it? Both equal the same thing. It reminds me of the use of steroids in sports. As an athlete, if you want to compete at the highest level you're gonna need a little extra help. That's simply the reality.
 
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Following the same logic. How is there any difference between not changing the rules to allow something; but not enforcing that rule either, and changing the rules to allow it. Both equal the same thing. It reminds me of the use of steroids in sports. As an athlete, if you want to compete at the highest level you're gonna need a little extra help. That's simply the reality.

There in lies the problem with SNAIL's desire to have all drivers on equal footing and some drivers overwhelming desire to win at all costs. If you want to talk about the reality of things, the reality is that every driver in SNAIL has agreed to follow our rules and regulations as they are written. The other reality is that SNAIL has lost a driver due to the patch that reverted the shifter back to pre-update status. I won't name the driver but if there is one that has made their opinion known, then there are probably others that we don't know about.
 
I'm in the process to upgrade my equipment too, BUT, not necessarily for winning as much as for experience. A while ago I decided to drive in Cockpit view, no matter what. A few cars are a bit difficult because of the A-Pillar size and no matter how much you move your head, you can't see around the pillar....:mischievous:. The Scirocco was particularly bad at Autopolis at the off camber left hander where the long circuit splits off from the short circuit. I tried bumper cam for a while, but it screwed up my brake points for the rest of the track. So, braking point is important, but with cockpit view your turn-in point is sometimes critical. I guess you learn as you go and get better the more you practice.

Currently I have a G27 shifter connected to my G29 wheel. It is not a great setup and you miss a lot of gears. Once I have a better shifter, my plan is to drive the cars according to the their "real world specs" (Flappy paddles, sequential, H-Pattern). I know I will need a lot of practice because with flappy paddles and left foot braking, my hand and foot coordination will need new motion memory. Up-shifting will of course not be the issue. The issue will be with down shifting with heel-toe braking. With flappy pedals and left foot braking the punishment for bad downshifting is not as severe as when you screw up manual/heel/toe down shifting.

So, in a few months when I finally get my stuff, I might drop down the divisions and then work my way up again as I get used to my new way. Hopefully PD update the manual/paddle shift to be faster. Who did they use in the first place to determine the speed of a manual gearbox shift. Kamakazi's grandmother?
 
The frustrating part and the part I think everyone agrees with is why hasn't PD fixed lobbies to allow proper qualifying and give us the ability to change these settings as we see fit. Especially since the technology is already used in their official matchmaking system.
 
And the circle is complete. This is where these discussion always end. Either an individual has it or they don't.
You didn't answer the question (which was philosophical by the way). I did forget to include a question mark.
Following the same logic. How is there any difference between not changing the rules to allow something; but not enforcing that rule either, and changing the rules to allow it?
 
Following the same logic. How is there any difference between not changing the rules to allow something; but not enforcing that rule either, and changing the rules to allow it?

I'm not quite sure I follow the question but I'll take a stab at it.

SNAIL has rules in place that facilitate all drivers using an equal car with the only variable being the driver. Obviously there are some things that are out of our hands. Wheel vs. controller, shifter vs paddles, brake balance, etc. The rules are in place to not adjust brake balance and not use glitches or bugs to your advantage. All drivers agree to this as part of the process to join. They are then expected to follow those rules. The game does not give us the ability to check and therefore enforce these rules with any reliability so here we are putting all our eggs in the basket and hoping that each driver will adhere to what they agreed to. This takes us back to the personal integrity and accountability of the individual. Sadly, some individuals are lacking in these traits and choose to break their agreement with SNAIL.

I'ts a crappy spot to be in as a league when a few choose to not follow the rules and adhere to the agreement they made upon joining and then not having the means to investigate and enforce. It's also a sad commentary on the values of some when enforcement of their word is something that should even be necessary.

You'll notice that I have always said some and not all when referring to drivers. I know that there are a good number of drivers here that do not adjust brake balance, do not use the glitches present with the shifter, and keep their agreement that they made with SNAIL.
 
You didn't answer the question (which was philosophical by the way). I did forget to include a question mark.

I believe that No -tune Spec racing sums it up nicely.That is why the rules haven't changed,and won't.Someday maybe PD will catch on and give us an option to turn it (brake bias/shifter etc.) off/on.Still hoping they will give us proper qualifying as well.
 
I believe that No -tune Spec racing sums it up nicely.That is why the rules haven't changed,and won't.Someday maybe PD will catch on and give us an option to turn it (brake bias/shifter etc.) off/on.Still hoping they will give us proper qualifying as well.
Or even balance all 3 well enough we don't have to rely on a lobby setting to even the playing field. Reading on this topic on other threads it has been suggested why not just increase the shifting speed to match. People with real life racing experience mostly agree that the quicker shift is closer to why you would see in a real car. It just sucks there are a few viable solutions that would fix the issue and bring it closer to a sim environment but the answer PD brings to the table is the least viable. Smh
 
Or even balance all 3 well enough we don't have to rely on a lobby setting to even the playing field. Reading on this topic on other threads it has been suggested why not just increase the shifting speed to match. People with real life racing experience mostly agree that the quicker shift is closer to why you would see in a real car. It just sucks there are a few viable solutions that would fix the issue and bring it closer to a sim environment but the answer PD brings to the table is the least viable. Smh

Agree there. So many options to actually fix the issue and PD employs none of them. Just bans the clutch and shifter in their precious sport mode and leaves the rest of the user base to flounder in the wild west.
 
Personally I don't mind people who want to use a shifter.
My gripe with the shifter comes with the very specific abuse of the programming glitch that allows you to abuse how the H-shifter was "meant" to be used.

This creates a scenario where a driver can leave the H-pattern in 2nd (or 3rd) or whatever - and when they want to shift to this gear they simply pop the clutch down for a split second and the game see's the shifter in 2nd (or whatever gear it was left in) and instantly switches. This creates situations where paddle shifters, or controller users who have to deal with excessive shift lag get blown by on starts and some corner exits by H-shifter users.

The other side of this is none of these H-shifter drivers are forced to heel/toe downshift as they can simply revert back to autoclutch and paddles for downshifting.

Some fairly simple programming changes from PD's end would fix this.

First : only allow shifting if the H-shifter is in the same gear as your car when you activate the clutch - this would force you to keep the H-shifter in the same gear as the car before you shift. (The problem with this is this might involve the hardware communicating with the software in a way the hardware has not been designed to do, so it might actually be impossible to make this a uniform change across all brands of shifters)

Second : Force drivers to choose between manual clutch or auto clutch - do not allow the use of both at the same time. This would make it so people who are H-shifting are forced to do it for both up and down shifts. Even somebody who shifts "properly" will shift faster than paddles on certain cars with bad shift lag, but at least this benefit is somewhat counteracted by the increased difficulty of downshifts, especially on turn ins etc that require heel/toe techniques to be fastest.

Again though, this is like the 2nd or 3rd time I've said the exact same thing, it's probably not changing from PD's side anytime soon - so if the racing lineup for any given Sunday is heavily favoring H-shifters, I just won't race. Not because I'm worried about sliding into D2 or something, but because I genuinely don't have fun when 4-5 drivers starting behind me in the reverse grid races are passed me before we get to turn 1.
 
I'm not quite sure I follow the question but I'll take a stab at it.

SNAIL has rules in place that facilitate all drivers using an equal car with the only variable being the driver. Obviously there are some things that are out of our hands. Wheel vs. controller, shifter vs paddles, brake balance, etc. The rules are in place to not adjust brake balance and not use glitches or bugs to your advantage. All drivers agree to this as part of the process to join. They are then expected to follow those rules. The game does not give us the ability to check and therefore enforce these rules with any reliability so here we are putting all our eggs in the basket and hoping that each driver will adhere to what they agreed to. This takes us back to the personal integrity and accountability of the individual. Sadly, some individuals are lacking in these traits and choose to break their agreement with SNAIL.

I'ts a crappy spot to be in as a league when a few choose to not follow the rules and adhere to the agreement they made upon joining and then not having the means to investigate and enforce. It's also a sad commentary on the values of some when enforcement of their word is something that should even be necessary.

You'll notice that I have always said some and not all when referring to drivers. I know that there are a good number of drivers here that do not adjust brake balance, do not use the glitches present with the shifter, and keep their agreement that they made with SNAIL.
Again, the question is philosophical. It has nothing to do with brake balance, shifters or SNAIL rules. It does have to do with integrity though. To accept something as unenforceable, but never the less continue to insist on its enforcement seems to me to be a little lacking in integrity on the part of the rule makers. Again, I'm not directing this at you or SNAIL or SNAIL's rules. That's why I used steroids in sports as the example. For athletes to compete at the highest levels they pretty much have to use performance enhancing substances. Nobody likes to admit it but it's true. The current state of being is that all of the blame is placed squarely on the athletes and their lack of integrity and character. No blame at all for the state of affairs lays on the coaches, trainers, doctors, owners, promoters, broadcasters, or governing bodies. And certainly not with the fans. The truth is that most of the athletes competing at that level have (or had) plenty of character and integrity or they would not have gotten to the top of their sport. That's all then taken away by being forced to either quit, and give up everything they worked so hard for, or start cheating too because all of their top rivals already are. It seems to me, that if the rules restricting the use of performance enhancing drugs were repealed (in pretty much whatever sport you like, especially professional leagues and the Olympics) the only real change would be that the athletes could retain their high character.
 
The current state of being is that all of the blame is placed squarely on the athletes and their lack of integrity and character
As it should be. It was their decision to use the drug to begin with. No one person (as you mentioned above) forced them to take the drug. They gathered the information, processed said information and made a decision. They own that decision and any consequence (or reward) they may receive from making it. Personal accountability...which is so lacking in the world today. It's always "everybody else's fault, not mine".
 
Again, the question is philosophical. It has nothing to do with brake balance, shifters or SNAIL rules. It does have to do with integrity though. To accept something as unenforceable, but never the less continue to insist on its enforcement seems to me to be a little lacking in integrity on the part of the rule makers. Again, I'm not directing this at you or SNAIL or SNAIL's rules. That's why I used steroids in sports as the example. For athletes to compete at the highest levels they pretty much have to use performance enhancing substances. Nobody likes to admit it but it's true. The current state of being is that all of the blame is placed squarely on the athletes and their lack of integrity and character. No blame at all for the state of affairs lays on the coaches, trainers, doctors, owners, promoters, broadcasters, or governing bodies. And certainly not with the fans. The truth is that most of the athletes competing at that level have (or had) plenty of character and integrity or they would not have gotten to the top of their sport. That's all then taken away by being forced to either quit, and give up everything they worked so hard for, or start cheating too because all of their top rivals already are. It seems to me, that if the rules restricting the use of performance enhancing drugs were repealed (in pretty much whatever sport you like, especially professional leagues and the Olympics) the only real change would be that the athletes could retain their high character.

Edited my original answer to get to the point.

The rule is in place and whether or not it's enforceable really doesn't matter as every driver agreed to follow it. If a driver chooses not to follow the rule they agreed to, they are cheating and lacking in integrity by not keeping up their end of the agreement.

It really is that simple. It's not the fault of the rule. It's the fault of the individual who chooses to violate their agreement.
 
Personally I don't mind people who want to use a shifter.
My gripe with the shifter comes with the very specific abuse of the programming glitch that allows you to abuse how the H-shifter was "meant" to be used.

This creates a scenario where a driver can leave the H-pattern in 2nd (or 3rd) or whatever - and when they want to shift to this gear they simply pop the clutch down for a split second and the game see's the shifter in 2nd (or whatever gear it was left in) and instantly switches. This creates situations where paddle shifters, or controller users who have to deal with excessive shift lag get blown by on starts and some corner exits by H-shifter users.

The other side of this is none of these H-shifter drivers are forced to heel/toe downshift as they can simply revert back to autoclutch and paddles for downshifting.

Some fairly simple programming changes from PD's end would fix this.

First : only allow shifting if the H-shifter is in the same gear as your car when you activate the clutch - this would force you to keep the H-shifter in the same gear as the car before you shift. (The problem with this is this might involve the hardware communicating with the software in a way the hardware has not been designed to do, so it might actually be impossible to make this a uniform change across all brands of shifters)

Second : Force drivers to choose between manual clutch or auto clutch - do not allow the use of both at the same time. This would make it so people who are H-shifting are forced to do it for both up and down shifts. Even somebody who shifts "properly" will shift faster than paddles on certain cars with bad shift lag, but at least this benefit is somewhat counteracted by the increased difficulty of downshifts, especially on turn ins etc that require heel/toe techniques to be fastest.

Again though, this is like the 2nd or 3rd time I've said the exact same thing, it's probably not changing from PD's side anytime soon - so if the racing lineup for any given Sunday is heavily favoring H-shifters, I just won't race. Not because I'm worried about sliding into D2 or something, but because I genuinely don't have fun when 4-5 drivers starting behind me in the reverse grid races are passed me before we get to turn 1.

Well said.

I think PD's biggest fault in all of this is they don't understand what the actual issue is (hybrid shifting with paddles/H-shifter).
 
Well said.

I think PD's biggest fault in all of this is they don't understand what the actual issue is (hybrid shifting with paddles/H-shifter).

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Are saying that PD isn't in touch with their user base??? That's blasphemy. That's unheard of. That's unprecedented.


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That's actually the most spot on comment I've read in a while that I didn't write.:cheers:

The above should be read with tongue firmly planted in cheek. For those that don't understand what that means. It's a joke people. Contrary to popular opinion, I do have a sense of humor.
 
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How much faster is using a H shifter Vs paddle Vs ds4 given equal talent and not abusing a broken mechanic? I'm a ds4 pleb so I just pound buttons and have fun.
 
When you play Pcars and AC you realize how half baked the clutch interface is in GTS. GTS NEVER allows a no lift shift, which I've done multiple times IRL on the 1-2 shift. The 1-2 shift can be the worst gear change on some cars in GTS which makes absolutely no sense because second gear usually has an extra cone or more/different material on the synchro compared to higher gears. Not to mention even if you're slightly off you get a little grind, not complete lockout of the gear. Also, heel-toe downshifting can cause you to miss a gear because gts doesn't allow you to be on the throttle while shifting.

In AC once you activate the H-gate in the options menu that's all you can use for non paddle shifted cars, IMO this is most realistic option. In PCARS you can use both, but not like GTS where you can just leave it in a higher gear and super shift. It's mind boggling that a company that has made racing games for 20+ years are getting BTFO by the newcomers when it comes to things like this.
 
How much faster is using a H shifter Vs paddle Vs ds4 given equal talent and not abusing a broken mechanic? I'm a ds4 pleb so I just pound buttons and have fun.
If you have to ask knowing will make you sick to your stomach.

I am at fault I’ll be the first to admit it. I’m only using it to compete. I’ve been inD1 since day one. I don’t think I’ll be going anywhere but I also want to compete for a prize weekly. It doesn’t come easy to me, if I took the shifter out and let the shiftersgate go, I’ll be running mid pack not competing for a win and I wouldn’t be elgiable to drop to D2 to get said win(‘s). So I was left with a decision that I smiled about but by no means am happy about. I am all for getting the shifters to be used as they are Intended to be used I’ve even started practicing using the shifter on downshifting (the correct way).
 
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