- 405
- Waynesville, North Carolina
Div 3 Stream
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- Thread starter zer05ive
- 150,405 comments
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JLBowler
Premium
- 7,989
- California
- JLBowler
All hosts should start tonight's racing at the scheduled time. The only reason to hold the start is to give someone who was already in the lobby their three minutes to return from the time they left, provided they are believed to have been disconnected, or to sort invisible driver issues.
- 6,634
- Columbus, Ohio
- nog3861
Another D3 stream
- 405
- Waynesville, North Carolina
I'm sorry, but no. Removing qualifying is absurd. You're taking away a level of fairness.
So I had a horrible 2nd race in round 1 and finished last. So I'm punished in the next Round and have to start last, while the winner of the previous race gets rewarded and starts first? How is this fair play? Qualifying sets the field based on time, which is a measure of the drivers ability at that track. If the pole sitter has a hard time with the next track we're all at risk for an incident.
If time is the issue, why not move start time to 915 EST? We spend more time sitting around till 930 than we did qualifying under the last rules, which by the way was pretty efficient and turned out well compared to lining up.
I cant imagine that anyone thinks this is fair at all. I get the reverse grid for race 2, but I dont see the fairness here.
So I had a horrible 2nd race in round 1 and finished last. So I'm punished in the next Round and have to start last, while the winner of the previous race gets rewarded and starts first? How is this fair play? Qualifying sets the field based on time, which is a measure of the drivers ability at that track. If the pole sitter has a hard time with the next track we're all at risk for an incident.
If time is the issue, why not move start time to 915 EST? We spend more time sitting around till 930 than we did qualifying under the last rules, which by the way was pretty efficient and turned out well compared to lining up.
I cant imagine that anyone thinks this is fair at all. I get the reverse grid for race 2, but I dont see the fairness here.
- 761
- Charlotte, NC
D1 replays shared
- 632
- United States
- Grandpas_Money
I have changed my tone .. I think we need some kind of warm up before each combo .. I used the out lap and hot lap for this ...now we're just going in cold ..
Guess I'll have to figure it out.
- 1,392
- New Hampshire
- AKZL298
I hear you. Qualifying may set the field based on time and driver's ability at said track, but it doesn't measure a drivers ability in racecraft. The ability to effectively manage on-track cars and track conditions.
As far as "If the pole sitter has a hard time" notion, what difference is it, as our second race starts the last place finisher first? Said individual obviously has shown a "struggle" with the track/car combo. Why put them in front of faster cars? Because it shows us a driver's ability to overcome on track incidents.
I get the frustration, believe me. I can't tell you how many races I've had to forfeit just because of on-track incidents. But the measure of a good driver, is how he manages the adversity on track, in a race. Qualifying is a huge waste of time. With added laps to our races, it gives us the ability to overcome circumstances that happen on track. If qualifying is an interest to anyone, we have a time trial series that promotes a driver's abilities at a certain track.
- 549
- New York
- soundtiger95
I agree that the measure of a good driver is being able to handle adversity and all kinds of different situations. However, I don’t think doing something to possibility create those situations is really a great idea. Enough chaos happens naturally without changes being made that promotes it even more. Personally, I don’t think an idea is a great one if it’s only implemented to cause more chaos. I don’t believe that this was the main reason or even necessarily a reason at all for why the new system was put into place, but I don’t think that point holds much water.
As for the racecraft aspect, I actually think the previous system may be better in encouraging that part of racing. The qualifying+reverse grids made it so that pure overall talent and skill was all that mattered and it made the playing field even for every driver. Drivers were setup close to each other on the grid based on speed and skill with certain track and car combos. With the new system, we’re taking more outside factors and having them play a role. Using previous season points has nothing to do with specific combos, and a drivers skills at individual combos is what should matter most IMO. Also, the way we’re set up now essentially gives the fastest drivers clear paths to victories in half of the races AND clear paths to fastest lap points in those races since they won’t have traffic in front of them. With how dwindled the number of active members has become it has led to larger gaps in talent within divisions, and now those gaps are most likely going to reveal themselves even more because those faster drivers have an advantage.
Finally, when it comes to qualifying I do agree with @Grandpa Money when he says that we need some kind of warm up before the races. I don’t know if qualifying necessarily has to be that warmup, but even if one practices throughout the week it’s still nice to get back up to speed and into the groove before the race even if it’s only for a lap or two. It felt a bit tricky for the first couple of laps tonight but maybe that’ll wear off as we get used to the new system.
Overall, I’m willing to give this new system a shot since some kinks always need to be worked out and adjustments need to be made with these things. But as of right now I’m not a fan.
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- 549
- New York
- soundtiger95
D2 replays have been uploaded 
Nicktune
Premium
- 1,260
- T-R
- Nic-KL
The fastest lap points could be won by a wider range of drivers that way. You can post a much quicker lap in dirty air. I believe every fastest lap last night has been made in dirty air. (d1)
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- 405
- Waynesville, North Carolina
I believe, the measure of race-craft is during the race. Qualifying is just a snapshot of that. Its one lap as fast as you can and then your race-craft is measured when you're put next to someone who has a similar time as you. Which would mean you both have similar race-craft abilities. Its not measured by putting someone one who struggled "out of the way" of the faster drivers in the back. Let that individual do that for themselves. Let us earn our 13th starting spot, not force it upon someone.
My "struggles" last night with the 2nd combo were purely manufactured by the system. I was forced to the rear and had to fight "adversity" to get to 5th or 6th whatever it was. It took a lot to get there and not cause any issues along the way. I was even hit in turn 10 and lost 1/2 of my positions that I fought ""adversity to get. Now I have to have some more of it. If its adversity you want to add to the show, then lets make it dirty. Had I been allowed to qualify, I'm confident I would not have started 13th.
I haven't been here very long, compared to some, but I was attracted to this league, due to its level playing field and close competition. We have 3 combos, 6 races every week. The cars/tracks change weekly, which brings a great level of competition and fun to the race. Everyone is as equal as they can be. You'll be good if you practice and learn, if not, you struggle. Now those that struggle will be forced to struggle through at least 1/2 the races. Since I've started racing this league, my driving has improved tremendously. I feel like I'm competitive most weeks. When I do have issues its rare for me to park and sit. Even a lap or 2 down, in last place, I still keep it on the track and get seat time. I see too often a driver take a lap or 2 then park it. Last night was only the 2nd time Ive ever quit a race night. Its prolly only the 3rd time Ive ever parked it. Everyone of us struggles with combos from time to time, its part of the of this league. That's all the adversity right there. If you watch any replay you can see that some of us have no problem causing adversity for ourselves, without the league adding any.
I don't believe this rule adds value to competition, fun or fair play. I believe it takes away from that and this will probably affect my participation level in this league. I'm just being honest. I like this league, the racing is fun, clean and competitive. It's what I tell everyone when they ask "What are some good leagues to race?" I say "SNAIIL, Clean, Fun, Competitive racing and a great community."
- 1,392
- New Hampshire
- AKZL298
Not arguing, I know what you're saying. But seeing as we've always started half of our races inverted anyways, just seems like a waste of time to bother qualifying in the first place. Just because a person qualifies first, doesn't mean they're going to be worth much in the race
- 1,283
- Saskatchewan
- DUB-L-DEE
I can’t speak to anyone else’s experience with the new system, but my only issue with it is just like G$ mentioned earlier, the fact that your starting the race cold.
As far as qualifying and the starting position, I think that’s a non issue...it’s no different then winning race one and starting in the back in race 2 and working your way to the front, or as close to it as possible, as we did with the old system.
I had a mediocre night but in the first race I started in the back and finished 3rd, and my worst race last night was the first race of the second round and was no fault of the system, it was 100% my mistake and finished last.
If we could figure something out like opening the track to hot laps 5 minutes before race start, I think the system could work quite well.
As far as qualifying and the starting position, I think that’s a non issue...it’s no different then winning race one and starting in the back in race 2 and working your way to the front, or as close to it as possible, as we did with the old system.
I had a mediocre night but in the first race I started in the back and finished 3rd, and my worst race last night was the first race of the second round and was no fault of the system, it was 100% my mistake and finished last.
If we could figure something out like opening the track to hot laps 5 minutes before race start, I think the system could work quite well.
- 4,886
- Cloud 9
- Rednose58
SNAIL INVITATIONAL EVENT - INVITES SENT
See information here
The system we follow in the Invitational event is to open the room at the top of the hour and then run the Combos for 10 minutes each for warmup. If you join early, then you have a chance to run each combo before the races start. The idea of not qualifying is to give more race time. Warmup before each race will take that time away
Last night's races were all between 15 and 16 minutes long and it looked to me all divisions finished after 11:30. If all races approach 17 minutes it will potentially add another 6-9 minutes to race night. We need to be diligent with starting on time and starting the next race without delays.
I also saw that the rundown time after the race might have been too short. With the longer time, the field starts to spread out a bit more. Maybe take the rundown to 60 seconds. If you are that far behind (due to a spin or other incident), you are most likely racing alone.
Thanks for all the feedback. Let's hear some more.
See information here
The system we follow in the Invitational event is to open the room at the top of the hour and then run the Combos for 10 minutes each for warmup. If you join early, then you have a chance to run each combo before the races start. The idea of not qualifying is to give more race time. Warmup before each race will take that time away
Last night's races were all between 15 and 16 minutes long and it looked to me all divisions finished after 11:30. If all races approach 17 minutes it will potentially add another 6-9 minutes to race night. We need to be diligent with starting on time and starting the next race without delays.
I also saw that the rundown time after the race might have been too short. With the longer time, the field starts to spread out a bit more. Maybe take the rundown to 60 seconds. If you are that far behind (due to a spin or other incident), you are most likely racing alone.
Thanks for all the feedback. Let's hear some more.
- 818
- Seattle
- Fudman420
The only issue I have with the system is different tracks and cars suit different people. A racer may be strong on 1 combo but not so much on another. So if I suck on combo 1 I'm at a disadvantage for the start of combo 2. Qualifying is representation of each racers pace for that particular combo. The system now only represents the pace of the previous combo.
DesertPenguin
(Banned)
- 10,691
- Long Island, New York
- DesertPenguin_
What if people practiced during the week when they can and got themselves familiar with each combo? There's a novel idea 
I know not everyone has time to do this but anyone that has a free 30 minutes each week is wasting 30 minutes. 10 minutes on each combo can be enough to get acclimated at the least.
I know not everyone has time to do this but anyone that has a free 30 minutes each week is wasting 30 minutes. 10 minutes on each combo can be enough to get acclimated at the least.
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- 1,283
- Saskatchewan
- DUB-L-DEE
What if people practiced during the week when they can and got themselves familiar with each combo? There's a novel idea
unfortunately not all of us have the luxury of having “spare” time, and I for one am so busy with work and real life, that I’m lucky to spin a couple laps prior to race night, some nights the out lap and qually lap were the only practice I could get, before the new system was implemented.
last night I had zero practice on two of the combos, and as a result I had to let a few cars get ahead a bit while I found my pace, but it all worked out fairly well.
- 405
- Waynesville, North Carolina
I understand what you are saying as well but, the reverse grid is to allow a wider range of drivers the opportunity to win. This league advertises all abilities welcome. The previous format supported that. It gave the widest opportunity for all drivers to win. Now if someone has a bad race, their shunted to the back to keep out of the way. Everyone knows and understands the qual-race format, most forms of motor sport have this format. This is the most fair way to set the field. The only argument FOR this change has been time. It doesn't improve the racing. Removing the qualifying only saves a few min overall. ITs the sitting around waiting to move from one step to the next that is the killer.
There are other ways to keep the night from running too late:
Start at 915 EST
Start race 2min after qual instead of sitting around another 6-10 min.
at end of race1- 2min to update scores,save replay change room settings - start race 2
at end of race2- 2 min to update scores, save replay, change room settings.
repeat.
If we reduced the time just sitting around, kept breaks to between combos, removed live scoring, we can race for 17-20 min and still be done before midnight and not sacrifice fairness and competition.
- 5,391
- Bel Air, MD
- NOVA-0479
The reasons go beyond just time, but that is not for me to elaborate on.
For arguements sake, you say that if someone has a bad race in the 2nd race of a combo, their relegated to the back of the field for the 1st race of the next combo. Let's take a look at this.
The only thing that relegates you to the back of the field is your performance. Assuming you do have a bad 2nd race and start at the back in c2r1...why is it assumed you will stay at the rear. Achieve as many spots as possible.
Now, if you were to finish in the rear for this c2r1 race you would be in the front of the grid for c2r2. Let's assume you finish 1st in this race, you now begin c3r1 in 1st. Your fortunes have now been flipped.
The idea is not to settle with where you start, but to achieve as many advancing positions possible throughout the night. If your overall performance was gaining positions, you will fair out well, and if losing positions, not so much. If you are able to over come enough positions to get near the front when starting from the rear, you likely have the night. It balances out just as it would with qualifying. Make your focus less about where you start and more about where you finish.
JamCar0ne
Premium
- 1,938
- Illinois
- JamCar0ne
Does the point only occur if a driver gets fastest lap in both races? The wording implies it is the combination of both races, but that can only be determined after data for fastest lap of all drivers has been entered.
I agree, starting the race cold is a struggle. Just a couple of corners for warm up could be enough to refresh your memory on the cars handling.
50 seconds is too short for us slow guys. Don't recall which race of combo 1 it was, but three of us were in a tight battle and the timer ran out while we were in the final chicane.
JLBowler
Premium
- 7,989
- California
- JLBowler
It is one point for the fastest lap in the combo meaning the one fastest lap put down over the course of the two races gets the point. Hopefully that's clearer.
The BoD is discussing a short warm up period.
The BoD is also discussing increasing the end of race timer to allow for larger gaps due to longer races.
- 6,634
- Columbus, Ohio
- nog3861
I'll chime in here...I have no issue with the new format. I found it to be a very interesting concept at the beginning of the night. Fighting the way through the pack is what is going to make me a better driver, in the long run. What I was extremely frustrated with last night was all of the banging that was going on. Look, I am the first to admit I make mistakes, and will always concede a position whether i think I was in the wrong or not. I also know that I am not the fastest driver in the division. I have been told since day one, to hold my line, that it is the faster drivers responsibility to get around you with a clean pass. But after getting dumped in the second round (not sure what race it is) I just left. So frustrating, and I don't do this to get frustrated. I am also not going to take the time to file an IR on someone when I can predict what the outcome will be, so I choose not to. I don't have the time to review the replay and fill out the form, so I understand that's on me, and I accept that. You would think that drivers that have been around a while understand what the word (and concept) of concede means.
I'll be back next week to take another crack at it, because I really do enjoy racing this format, but enough is enough. Let's police ourselves and clean it up a little bit drivers.
I'll be back next week to take another crack at it, because I really do enjoy racing this format, but enough is enough. Let's police ourselves and clean it up a little bit drivers.
- 6,634
- Columbus, Ohio
- nog3861
- 3,833
- socal
- SAMHAIN85
Can you believe it's already been 6 months since Survivor Series 3? Be on the lookout for an announcement for the next one. I think we'll be using this:
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