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[qwietstorm]

I find some serious comedy in D2 guys out qualfying D1 guys. Might be time to promote some folks. Seriously what the hell.

Gonna get real here Z06fun and Luv2Coach both need promoted ASAP.

I agree, Luv2Coach AND racefan78 were FLYING last night.

 

[Chiochan]

Luv2Coach is in D3. WORD UP D3!

 

[IceWarden]

I swear this is the Twilight Zone....

 

[Luv2Coach]

Got Chili? To all SNAILS who like chili, my wife entered a chili contest online. If she is in the top 5 in votes, the judges cook the 5 recipes and then determine the winner. I'm her "campaign manager". LOL. If some of (or all) you would cast a vote, here is the link: http://robbwolf.com/2013/01/11/time-vote-favorite-chili-recipe/ Hers is #83. Thanks in advance for any votes.

 

[Skills]

Hey guys, I think I might actually be able to race this Sunday but I missed the boat for getting the caterham. Could someone please send it to me? Many Thanks.

I can help with that. Sending it now.
Sent.

 

[Luv2Coach]

Catching up on the conversation. I just got up and posted my wife's chili stuff. Sorry for the interruption...

 

[kendawg]

I agree, Luv2Coach AND racefan78 were FLYING last night.

We need them on Saturday night...👍

 

[qwietstorm]

With the current format, it will be impossible to remedy the over aggressive driving. No other way around it. Adding more laps won't curb it because faster drivers in the rear will still need to get through the pack as quickly as possible to take the lead. If we change the laps from 5 to 7, don't think the fast aggressive drivers in the rear are going to now wait until lap 6 to get to the front, they're still going to try and get it done by at least lap 3 or 4.

Running the race based on previous race results will fix it but it will make the racing pretty boring for drivers somewhere between 4th or 5th back. Things tend to get spread out after that.

 

[IceWarden]

When I was trying to come up with a series idea for Monday (before realizing there would actually be work involved), I thought of a decent way to get away from the "do or die" sprint races.

Every Sunday we allot 2hrs for the evening.

Currently we qualify for a total of 30mins and race for 60-70min (races are designed to be at least 10mins in length).

I was thinking we only have two combos (instead of the current three). Still qualify for the first race in a combo and reverse grid the second.

Under this proposal the total qualifying time for the evening would be 20mins. We could then make minimum race lengths approach 20mins and still finish on time. This basically doubles the lengths of the races, eliminates the "do or die" feel and actually gives us more time racing on the track. You still have two different combos and all is right in the universe.

I still like this.

 

[kendawg]

I was thinking we only have two combos (instead of the current three). Still qualify for the first race in a combo and reverse grid the second.

I have always thought this would work better. Not as many cars to break in and more time racing instead of qualifing and resetting rooms.

I understand it is easier to run 3 races for prize situations. That is fine too. Just my personal opionion, 2 tracks (4 races total) would be a good night of racing for me.

 

[qwietstorm]

Joe that idea sounds like it has a lot of potential.

 

[kendawg]

Joe that idea sounds like it has a lot of potential.

I'm for it. 👍
But my ideas are less than $.02...lol

 

[Chiochan]

Got Chili? To all SNAILS who like chili, my wife entered a chili contest online. If she is in the top 5 in votes, the judges cook the 5 recipes and then determine the winner. I'm her "campaign manager". LOL. If some of (or all) you would cast a vote, here is the link: http://robbwolf.com/2013/01/11/time-vote-favorite-chili-recipe/ Hers is #83. Thanks in advance for any votes.

By: Stacy Sprouse

Servings: 8

Ingredients:
2 T. Coconut Oil
3 1bs Ground Venison
1 large Onion, diced
4 Cloves Garlic, diced
1 T. Himalayan Salt divided into ½ T dosages
½ C Water
2 (14 oz) cans Fire-roasted Diced Tomatoes
1 (28 oz) can Pureed Tomatoes
1 T. Garlic Powder
1 T. Onion Powder
¼ tsp Cayenne Pepper
2 T. Paprika
1 T. Smoked Paprika
2 T. ground Ancho Chili Powder
2 tsp. Chipotle Chili Powder
½ tsp. Ground Cloves
½ tsp. Ground Ginger
½ tsp. Ground Allspice
2 T. Cumin
½ T. Ground Mexican Oregano
1 T. Ground Cinnamon
1 T. Unsweetened cocoa powder
2 T. Apple Cider Vinegar
1/8 C. Raw Honey
3 T. Hot Sauce, (I use Cholulua)
Diced avocado, optional
Pickled Jalapeno slices, optional

Instructions: In a dutch oven, over medium heat add 1 T. oil, minced onion, and ½ T. salt. Sauté for 5 minutes and then add minced garlic for 3 to 4 minutes . Add ground venison, 1 T. oil, and ½ T salt to onion mixture. Stir mixture frequently until meat is browned. While meat is browning combine all herbs together and mix thoroughly. When venison is browned add spice mixture and water. Stir mixture thoroughly. Add in the cocoa and apple cider vinegarallowing mixture to come to a slow boil. Turn heat down to low and add honey to cook for 15 minutes. Add tomatoes and hot sauce to mixture. Allow to simmer for at least 30 minutes while stirring occasionally. Serve with diced avocado and pickled jalapeno slices if desired.

Notes: Better the next day.

I'm making this for dinner tonight! Coconut oil, Himalayan salt, Cholulua hot sauce, those are my kind of ingredient! Looks like some nice complimentary spices for the venison too with the clove, ginger, allspice, cocoa, etc.. Good luck, I've entered in several of these and they are tough.

 

[JLBowler]

Cut qualifying down to one timed lap and bump the races up to 15 minutes each. This would make qualifying a one shot, do or die deal and make the races longer hopefully allowing drivers to be more patient in the reverse grid races. You would have around 90 minutes of racing each night and that would leave 30 minutes to run the qualifying laps and get in and out of tracks. It should still run within the two hours.

 

[dabneyd]

Cut qualifying down to one timed lap and bump the races up to 15 minutes each. This would make qualifying a one shot, do or die deal and make the races longer hopefully allowing drivers to be more patient in the reverse grid races. You would have around 90 minutes of racing each night and that would leave 30 minutes to run the qualifying laps and get in and out of tracks. It should still run within the two hours.

One lap? That's barely enough to get the tires warm...

 

[Chiochan]

Why are we trying to solve a racecraft problem with a structuring solution? This makes no sense to me. If you want good racecraft we should try to find a solution that at least involves racecraft. I Like the idea of a racecraft clinic, or more helpful demonstration videos, or racing with boost (stay with me, this keeps the group bunched and will help with close racing situations) for non official racecraft practices.

I feel SNAIL is unique due to the reverse grid race format, and exceptional racecraft from mostly all racers involved. You can not get this experience in a random online lobby and that is why many of us have joined. I also like the sprint feeling of the 10 minute races, but wouldn't mind 12-13 minute races either. HAIL SNAIL.

 

[racefan78]

I know that some get very aggressive, but I also know from previous practice sessions with the D2 and D3 guys, you can run side by side and still be incident free; Kudos to Kcheeb, Luv2Coach, Dabney, Racefan, Oshawa-Joe, Goat and many others that always respect the other racers position! 👍

I agree, Luv2Coach AND racefan78 were FLYING last night.

Thanks for the complements guys! Unfortunately, the fact that I'm stuck with a DS3 keeps me from being quite as consitent as I'd like durring the races, so even though I out-qualified some D1 guys they usually beat me in the race. That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy the challenge of being promoted though. I was in D1 once...

However, I would also say I am against longer races. For once thing, durring intense races my hands often cramp up on the controller. This is why I never run enurance races with you guys. I know that's a kind of selfish reason, but I'm guessing other DS3 users in the leauge would agree to some to degree or another. Also, longer races would necesitate a major format change, and I really would hate to see that happen. The format we run with is brilliantly put together (kudos to those involved with it's creation) and I would hate to see it go.

 

[saxplayer1998]

Thanks for the complements guys! Unfortunately, the fact that I'm stuck with a DS3 keeps me from being quite as consitent as I'd like durring the races, so even though I out-qualified some D1 guys they usually beat me in the race. That's not to say I wouldn't enjoy the challenge of being promoted though. I was in D1 once...

However, I would also say I am against longer races. For once thing, durring intense races my hands often cramp up on the controller. This is why I never run enurance races with you guys. I know that's a kind of selfish reason, but I'm guessing other DS3 users in the leauge would agree to some to degree or another. Also, longer races would necesitate a major format change, and I really would hate to see that happen. The format we run with is brilliantly put together (kudos to those involved with it's creation) and I would hate to see it go.

I have a DFGT, but no where to mount it. I'm working on a stand design for it and feel the same way. I am a new SNAIL member and haven't raced yet. I have however, race GT5 A-Spec enduro races and it takes a toll on your hands. Even Indy.

 

[Apmaddock]

[Lots of great stuff]

Well done, Goat.

Hail Chuthulu!

 

[kendawg]

If you race GT5 (or any other racing game) on a consistant bases, why in the world would you not invest in a wheel. You can get the GT Logitech for about $125. I bought the Wheel Stand Pro with shipping included for $150. It brings a whole new level to the game and has more than paid for itself..

 

[JLBowler]

I feel SNAIL is unique due to the reverse grid race format, and exceptional racecraft from mostly all racers involved. HAIL SNAIL.

Goat has hit the nail on the head here. Why change anything becasue a very few drivers refuse to practice good racecraft? Let's concentrate on changing the less than a handful of drivers that are the problem. The format is great the way it is (I wouldn't mind seeing less time qualifying and more time racing but I just don't like to qualify).

The drivers that are the problem are very noticable. If the affected drivers won't file complaints then the stewards need to take care of it on their own. If penalties don't work then the problems need to be shown the door. Addition by subtraction does work.

I retract my earlier post about one lap of qualifying as a solution to the racecraft issue but I leave it there as a suggestion to give us less qualifying and more racing. Maybe even run two timed laps and go to 12 or 13 minute races.

 

[zer05ive]

Thanks for all suggestions on changing the format, but I agree with those who think that the format isn't what needs to be changed. What needs to be changed is the mindset that some drivers have. The problem with changing people's mindset during a race is that nobody ever thinks there's a problem with their own mindset.

For example, please raise your hand if you think you're an over-aggressive driver.

<pause for response>

Hmm, nobody raised their hand..

Now, please raise your hand if you think there are over-aggressive drivers in this league..

Wow! That's a lot of hands!

Hopefully, that got across the points I'm trying to make, which is that nobody ever thinks their own 🤬 stinks. It's really just plain and simple human nature. It's always the other guy's fault.. When I hit a guy in the rear, he broke too early.. But when that other guy hits me from behind, he has poor racecraft.. When I made that pass, it was a thing of beauty.. But when he made that pass, it was over-aggressive..

Everyone is guilty of this mentality to some extent or another (some more than others of course), but like I said, it's human nature to think like this, which means it's practically unavoidable. It's why two drivers involved in the same exact racing complaint will have two completely completely opinions on who's at fault.

Changing the format or length of our races won't address the "human nature hurdle" that we face. That's why I like the rating system idea so much. It's a measure of one's reputation as decided upon by those who are in the best position to give an opinion on it - the other drivers in your division. 💡

I feel like implementing something like this will have two major positive outcomes. First of all, it'll a serve as an eye-opener to anyone who thinks that they're racecraft is better than it actually is. Secondly (and more importantly), it will serve as an incentive for all drivers to be patient and improve their racecraft because they don't want their reputation/rating to take a hit because of their actions and decisions on the track. Thoughts?

 

[AMWeaver47]

However, I would also say I am against longer races. For once thing, durring intense races my hands often cramp up on the controller. This is why I never run enurance races with you guys. I know that's a kind of selfish reason, but I'm guessing other DS3 users in the leauge would agree to some to degree or another.

True that. I get it bad in my thumbs then I miss a shift or braking point.

Sorry I haven't been around much lately guys. I have a lot on my plate right now and I've been fighting some kind of illness.

I just read through 4 pages of new racing procedures and I don't think any of them really get to the root of the problem. I think getting new people joined is a vital part of the whole system but we may need to be more picky about the sign up procedure. It seems like it's 75/25 with the people that get it and the people that don't and I think we should be more specific about what we are doing. The welcome post says to read the OLR which is all well and good if you have 3 or 4 days to do so but I'm not sure that everyone takes the time to read it. Could we make a short video (or is there one already) highlighting examples of good and bad? Just throwing my pennies in.

For Zer0

I like the idea of a rating system. Maybe if your rating drops below 3 stars you need to have a "Learn How to Drive Session" with someone.

 

[Rallywagon]

Why are we trying to solve a racecraft problem with a structuring solution? This makes no sense to me. If you want good racecraft we should try to find a solution that at least involves racecraft. I Like the idea of a racecraft clinic, or more helpful demonstration videos, or racing with boost (stay with me, this keeps the group bunched and will help with close racing situations) for non official racecraft practices.

I feel SNAIL is unique due to the reverse grid race format, and exceptional racecraft from mostly all racers involved. You can not get this experience in a random online lobby and that is why many of us have joined. I also like the sprint feeling of the 10 minute races, but wouldn't mind 12-13 minute races either. HAIL SNAIL.

Ding! This for me hits the nail on the head. We are looking to place a bandaide on the format to fix a racecraft problem. It would be nice to get some of the to runners to hold a weekly racecraft clinic. We used to have two whom did this. Mopar and devious. But they moved on. I'm glad to see a lot of active participation on the subject, but the format its not the problem, bad racecraft and a win at all costs mentality is. Guess what people, you're not always going to win. Your lack of patience and inability to to lose gracefully should not constitute an over haul on the format. If you can't cleanly pass in the allotted laps to take the lead, that's just the way of it. We are of course a democratic league, and everybody's thoughts, ideas and opinions are weighed in the decision making here. But I don't think the format is the issue here.

Edit: Nice analogy there bowler, the nail thing. GMTA

 

[saxplayer1998]

I know I'm probably not one to talk because I haven't witnessed or even been in a SNAIL race yet, but how about having a mandatory Racecraft clinic and practice session for people who rack up a certain amount of penalty point.

 

[Wolfsatz]

Which by the way about the qualifying, the new method of qualifying seems to go way beyond the usual 10 minutes as it has happened in the past.
To me it is a concern because I need to wake up less than 5 hours after the end of the last race.

 

[kendawg]

The complaint system would be something of the past with a new download version. The version would include... Drivers will be able to pull over in the pits, get out of car and fight it out.
Just kidding... You are right Zer05ive

Like I said before.. Sprint races will create aggressive driving. If there are five guys racing with a five lap race. Pass one guy per lap.
If there are 12 guys racing with a five lap race. Get out of my way, got to go..

 

[jobyone]

Thanks to everyone for giving the proposed format a shot. I was initially against the idea as well, but it grew on me enough to think that we should at least test it out. Now that we've done that, it's pretty clear that it was a flop. 👎

That being said, I still think we need to find a way to tame the overly-aggressive driving that some drivers are able to get away with simply because others don't take the time to file complaints. With that in mind, I'd like to revisit Skills' idea last month of a rating system based on racecraft.

Here's what I propose.. At the end of each month, every driver in the league would be asked to fill out a quick survey in which they rate every other driver in their division. It was would be a 5-star ranking system in which 5 stars is the best and 1 star is the worst. Of course, if a driver hasn't raced with someone enough to form an opinion, then they would simply not rate that driver.

We would then take an average of how each driver was rated and that would be their "Racecraft Rating" for the month. We could even do something (very loosely based on what they do in the Olympics) by canceling out the ratings given by person in each division who handed out the highest scores and also cancel out the ratings given by the person in each division who dished out the most critical scores (basically like throwing out the Russian judge's score ).

Once the final calculations are made, we'd make a post in which everyone in the league is stack-ranked based on their "Racecraft Rating". We could either post all the names, or perhaps just post the names with a rating of 3.0 or higher (in case posting the names with low scores would cause too much drama on the thread). Or we could just put their Racecraft Rating next to their name in the final season standings.

However we decide to do it, it would at the very least acknowledge those with the best ratings in the league. More importantly, it would put something in the back of the mind of anyone thinking about attempting a divebomb or perhaps someone who caused contact with another driver, but is thinking about not lifting off the throttle and trying to complete the pass anyways.. The hope is that this list (and the desire to protect their reputation) would give them pause and help them make the right choice. Thoughts?

I like the general idea of a Racecraft rating. But have a few questions. If no one votes for me what is my rating? Do we all start at 5 or 0 or somewhere in between. Perhaps we all start at 3. So that is what we expect form all drivers in the league. Having a 4 would mean you exhibit great racecraft and a 5 would be simply awesome racecraft. A 2 could mean there is room for improvement (likely over aggressive or not paying attention to where others are) and A 1 could be improve immediately or you are gone.

Now what is the best way to reward/encourage good racecraft? My suggestion is this. In order to be eligible for a prize your racecraft score must be 3+. Second if your score is 2 or less you can not score points. You can race but you are racing to only improve your racecraft score. I would also say that with a score of 1 you can not even race on Sundays. You can still practice but you must at that point earn the right to race by getting racecraft rankings from your peers. So in that regard I would suggest that you can get ranked anytime you are on track with another SNAIL. It would be simple matter of sending a PM with the subject "Driver1 RCR 3 during practice session"

Lastly I would think that the penalty system in place could do away with the probation (but not the points adjustment) and instead at a certain level penalties become a racecraft rating. for instance
Level 1 Penalty - no racecraft entry
Level 2 Penalty - Racecraft entry of 2.0
Level 3 Penalty - Racecraft entry of 1.5
Level 4 Penalty - Racecraft entry of 1.0
Level 5 Penalty - Racecraft entry of 0.5

Just my thoughts.

 

[Handlebar]

(Briefly putting on teacher hat)

Publicly shaming poor racecraft by voting... not for it. Want your kid's citizenship/status posted on the wall based on popular vote? Probably not...

Posting the top few, if enough votes are cast, isn't bad.

I'd never post the bottom tier publicly. I would consider sending a PM to the drivers in the lowest 'bunch' - quartile, stanine, any area that is clearly delineated as out of the norm, if there is enough data to identify the group - to let them know.

I'd consider - and I am not sure how to implement - something that could indicate what the area of concern is in - not respecting cornering rights, never gives positions back, divebombs, excessive contact, etc. Even if there were a 1-3 word text response in addition to a 5 point Likert scale, it could immeasurably help inform the survey reader.

Something like -
5 - Exemplifies SNAIL
4 - Very good, a couple of small lapses in race night
3 - Usually OK, but one element above needs some work, or has that one race every week or two that's... urg
2 - Rarely seems to follow director/rules, frequently abuses or seems not to know the OLR
1 - OLR? Wha? Lolz, Srry fr wipin u out gain, man

 

[JLBowler]

Which by the way about the qualifying, the new method of qualifying seems to go way beyond the usual 10 minutes as it has happened in the past.
To me it is a concern because I need to wake up less than 5 hours after the end of the last race.

Your director needs to get some people moving then. In D2 we are right at the 10 minutes most of the time. Sometimes while waiting for track change and regulation change, we get up to 11 minutes.

On a seperate note, I would like to change my color combo to Sublime for the body and black for the wheels.