06 Viper details anyone???

[JNasty4G63]

It's not a great road car, it's not a great track car, the C6 beats it convincingly in every test and costs over 20k less.

I've been looking and looking, and I can't find very much to back that up. I'll give you the fact that a Viper is a terrible street car. Put 500hp in anything like that, and try to drive it on the street, and it will suck ass. Trust me, I know. My Talon sucks to drive. But, everything so far that I've read has the Viper edging out the C6 in just about every performance category. And, even in the occasional chance the C6 beats the Viper, its by the narrowest of margins. Show me the "convincing" stats, and I might understand. But as is, a 500hp Viper will easilly keep with or beat a 400hp C6.

And, I still don't know how you figure the Viper is a terrible track car. I've tried to tell you, given a good driver, the Viper will keep with many very exotic machines on a track. I've seen it time and again. So, it has a slowish 'Ring time, and on your precious Top Gear Power Lap board. So what. Thats 2 random times.

Back in the early days of the Speed GT challenge, before GM turned it into a mockery, which is a production car series, the Viper was THE car to beat. And, like I told you before, in the "One Lap" race every year, which is again only street cars, you can count on a Viper being up there. And, I've seen that same Viper ACR that I talked about earlier set very fast times around the track, and some very ridiculous times in every auto-x it shows up for. These are all PRODUCTION based series and cars.

Just because some magazines or TV shows don't like the car, that means very little. Hell, I'm with Blazin here. I don't like the Viper either. As a street car, its way to over-the-top, rides like ass, and gets horrible mileage. But, when put through its paces on a track, they can easilly hold their own. And, I still stand by what I said. Give any good driver a well prepared Viper with 1000hp, and it will beat the Enzo. We aren't talking about a Dodge Express Van with 1000hp. The Enzo is amazing, but 1000hp is hard for anything to keep with.

Hilg

 

[Dave A]

Okay it's not terrible, but it still gets beat by an M3, T350C, it ran 8'13 at the ring, the NSX-R beat it the C6 beat it by a lot. The C6 beats it on TopGear, 1000Bhp is nothing without the chassis to cope, sure the Venom will have stiffer springs ect, but the Enzo will still produce more downforce and be stiffer overall and it still has that wider track, lower CoG and better weigh distribution. I expect the Enzo to beat the Veyron round a track, don't you? 1000Bhp doesn't mean instant winner, this has been proven with modded Skylines and the like, theres many a modded car thats run at the ring, most of them don't keep up such as the 750Bhp Blitz Supra, that ran 1'50 almost 30 seconds slower than a CGT. The only ones that do keep up from time to time funnily enough are the Porsches, maybe on that basis I shouldn't pass it off so early, but I just don't see a Viper with any ammount of power being as capable around a track. Because in my mind it's almost like saying a 1600bhp Viper could keep up with an F1 car, theres two different levels of technology involved. You can pass it off as two random times but if you read Evo and Autocar regular you'd see them in the occasional track test, and it's the same storey. I do exaggerate when I go on about it's lack in track performance, I do that with many a car but I don't rate it as high as I rate a C6, I see the C6 do faster times in every test stock for stock.

 

[VIPFREAK]

Ever since the C5 racer they have progressed R&D for racing as well as having that traitor Lutz on board for the C6 to teach about the mistakes with the Viper in both production and racing so of course it's gonna be better at this point.

 

[Dave A]

Well, I'm gonna sleep on it (not really), but don't take it that I'm bashing the Viper, I just don't see one ever being able to match the level of track performance set by the Enzo. At the same time I know there is a Porsche 911 that could but, theres not been anytihng else tuner car wise that has besides a tuned Porsche 911. I'm just not seeing it at this stage.

 

[Driftster]

EVERY motoring show is biased, some just do it alot more subtle than the rest.

I mean honestly HOW can you hate the Ford GT as much as the people on TG did?
JC explains how much he loves it...And then what do they go into?

"It doesn't fit into parking spots!!! what a piece of garbage!"

At the end of the day the Viper is an excellent handling car, it just takes a little more from the driver than most cars at that level.

It did dominate le manz before leaving the scene did it not?

I'm not saying that it'll beat an enzo in lap times...
but if you were to put them head to head from a dead stop on the same track..
I really think the viper would win, just because it'd get the lead right out of the box without any questions...Then it's a matter of sticking to tight lines.

I mean the new z06 beat a superb handling car with just "raw power"
Why can't this one?

 

[Dave A]

the GTS-R was vastly superior to the GTS, you can't compare the two, again with TopGear, they liked ther GT40, they were taking the piss because JC had put an order in for one. Now they're taking the piss because he's sent it back because it kept breaking down. The new Z06 isn't just raw power, it handles rather well, as does the C6. Raw power doesn't get you roud corners well, finess and good suspension and chassis setups do.

 

[JNasty4G63]

I expect the Enzo to beat the Veyron round a track, don't you? 1000Bhp doesn't mean instant winner

Well, sure. The Veyron is more high power GT car than hyper-exotic. And, I never said the Venom was guaranteed a win. I said, given a good driver and well prepped car, the 1000hp Venom will be VERY fast, and has a good chance at beating the Enzo.

.....but I just don't see a Viper with any ammount of power being as capable around a track. Because in my mind it's almost like saying a 1600bhp Viper could keep up with an F1 car, theres two different levels of technology involved.

Nothing can keep with an F1 car on a track. Simple. Those cars are built with the sole purpose to be the top echelon of racing track machines. Same with the Enzo and street cars. Thats why its so fast. It has basically no ammenities inside to keep it light. Its made almost entirely of CF to keep it light. Its horribly ugly to give it great aero performance. And it has well over 600hp. It is basically the pinnacle of track performance of production street cars.

You can pass it off as two random times but if you read Evo and Autocar regular you'd see them in the occasional track test, and it's the same storey.

I read EVO and CAR almost every month. I can't think of too many times that a Viper has ever shown up in them. And, when it does, its usually only a little road test. The Viper over there is a very niche vehicle since it has to be imported and all. I don't know specifics, but I would imagine it costs a ton. So, sure, over there, the performance to dollar isn't very good. But, thats like me saying $90k is too much for the GT-R to cost here. Neither were intended for sale there, so the cost is not a relevant factor.

And just like I see very few GT-Rs here in the states, I would imagine you see very few Vipers there in GB. Thats why I question your logic. Again, it would be like my proclaiming TVRs as the crappiest and slowest things ever just because I've only seen 2 here in the states. You see them all the time at the track, I don't. So, you know they are amazing track cars. I see Vipers all the time at track events and auto-x races. I know they are great track cars.

Hilg

 

[VIPFREAK]

All I gotta say is back in 92 the Viper was the best performance car for the money and it was proven on the track. If it was out there now competing with the C6... the C6 would probably be in trouble.

 

[Dave A]

Alright JNasty, I'll give you that post since I can't fault the logic in it although still in a wait and see over the Enzo bit, but then none of us have any choice until it's out and theres a track test. Yes the Viper costs a ton over here, it costs us £77k+ thats $139,500+USD.

 

[Driftster]

Actually the enzo has quite a few amenities.
Air condition/leather/tilt/adjustable seats.

Another funny thing, from what i've heard seeing 3rd Gen eclipses in parts of europe is an amazing find.

Vipers are still great track cars wether he'd like to admit it or not, and there is ONLY room for improvement.

Saying the viper DOESN'T handle well is a joke, you're right Raw power doesn't get you around corners well.
But I gaurentee you a 500HP Mustang GT that handles "alright" will beat a 190HP lotus that handles GREAT at most tracks.

 

[JNasty4G63]

Alright JNasty, I'll give you that post since I can't fault the logic in it although still in a wait and see over the Enzo bit, but then none of us have any choice until it's out and theres a track test.

Which I'm sure there never will be. Thats why I've just been trying to give you a better understanding on how these cars are. Over there, you don't see many, so the chances of you seeing one setup well for the track is slim. But, over here, especially around Omaha, we see lots of Vipers, and many setup VERY well for racing. They can get around a track VERY good in the right hands.

They do get a bad wrap in the mags for the most part. But, just about every magazine out there is worried about street performance as much, if not more, than track performance. And, we all agree that the Viper makes a pretty ridiculous street car. But, track performance is something that they can excel at very much.

Hilg

 

[TheCracker]

Clarkson likes American cars - he famously bought a Ford GT, he liked the C6 vette (apart from crappy interior) and rated the Crossfire convertable over the convertable versions of the Audi TT and Nissan 350Z. He even liked the SRT-10 Viper, in an over-the-top hooligan kind of way. I find Clarkson funny, but don't value his opinions on cars very highly - but to say he hates American cars is just plain taking what he says too seriously, as live4speed pointed out, he takes the piss out of cars from all countries equally. No one in the UK classes a Vauxhall or Opel as a GM - so its hardly a dig at the US.

There you go. In 5 seconds of searching, I found that. Driven by Steve Millen, the Viper was only beaten by the Vette, and only by 0.3sec. Easilly beating those "lesser" cars that you think should beat it. If you have some other links you'd like to share, fire away.

For JNasty who posted the R&T article stating the Viper to be fastest have a read of what Steve Millen writes on the test:

Steve Millen, Contributing Editor
My mandate was to drive each car for four timed laps on the track. The Porsche 911 Carrera S wasn’t the most powerful nor did it put up the best lap times, but after driving it, only one word was necessary to describe it: Wow! Its 3.8-liter engine, terrific brakes and super handling convinced me that this is the car I would choose to own — to take to the track and then enjoy on the drive home.

Using this article as evidence of the Viper's superiority is nonsensical. Given that it has 145bhp more than the 911, and the fact that the track used has a very long back straight yet it only managed to beat the 911 Carrera S by a tenth of a second hardly classes it as a great circuit car does it?

With the lap split into 9 sections, the viper only topped the times in 2. Beating a lardy 350Z by 4 seconds is hardly worth shouting about.

live4speed and myself can only create our opinions on the Viper from reading magazines such as Evo or Autocar, watching TV shows such as Topgear or 5th Gear or reading comparative lap times around the The Ring or elsewhere. If the wealth of this information points to the Viper being s**t as a track car, then what else are we going to think?

I personally like the look of the Viper, always have done, but i'm not blinded by fanboyisum or national pride to the extent that i ignore its dynamic limitations. A 500bhp Viper has real difficulty transmitting all its power to the road, why do people think the same car with twice that power find it any easier??

The Enzo is a car designed by Formula One's most famous manufacturer with 60 years of supercar know how, honed around Fiorano by Ferrari's best chassis enginers and Michael Schumacher to be the worlds most able road car on a track.
The Viper is a unsophisticated pose-mobile for Miami realestaters built to stroke their egos and make-up for any deficiencies they have in the trouser department by the people who brought you the Grand Caravan.

 

[VIPFREAK]

Using this article as evidence of the Viper's superiority is nonsensical. Given that it has 145bhp more than the 911, and the fact that the track used has a very long back straight yet it only managed to beat the 911 Carrera S by a tenth of a second hardly classes it as a great circuit car does it?

/
\
V

It doesn't matter wheither you win by an inch or a mile... winnings winning.

The Enzo is a car designed by Formula One's most famous manufacturer with 60 years of supercar know how, honed around Fiorano by Ferrari's best chassis enginers and Michael Schumacher to be the worlds most able road car on a track.

As well as like 10 times the cost of a Viper...

 

[TheCracker]

As well as like 10 times the cost of a Viper...

Thats because its a moneys-no-object, focused Supercar.

I've seen better quality interior plastics in a $20 Bburago 1/18th scale model Viper than the real thing!

 

[VIPFREAK]

Dood...

Enzo = dedicated design specifically for track

Viper = Exotic Sports car adapted for racing on a track

Big difference there... (I don't give a **** if you don't think it's an exotic) And it can hang with them

As for interior... **** that ****... superfical... Do you think anyone gives a **** about an interior vs. the pure performance of a Viper?! And if they do well they don't deserve that car.

 

[Dave A]

I wouldnt pay 80k for a car with that interior tbh, I know it's cheaper in the US but the C6 has a better interior, TVR's have better interors, Porsches have better interior, Nobles have better interiors, they can all be had for less and all offer similar or better performance stock for stock. Yes people care, it doesn't have to be leather and luxury, but it has to be worth the cost. In terms of value, the Viper is the same as most US sportscars over here, overpriced. In the US, I'd have to leave the cost to you guys to decide if it's worth it or not.

 

[VIPFREAK]

I've heard people ***** about sooooo many insignificant things about that car and it's just sad... they should be hearded to a C6 with an auto then.

 

[Driftster]

Well as much as I love the viper..

It's interior is actually VERY ****ty....And if you're over 6'0 you aint driven the coupe, unless you bubble the roof circa GT-40/TVR......

 

[TheCracker]

I wouldnt pay 80k for a car with that interior tbh, I know it's cheaper in the US but the C6 has a better interior, TVR's have better interors, Porsches have better interior, Nobles have better interiors.....

Yugos had better interiors.

 

[skip0110]

I don't see how the interior plastics quality matters on the Viper; it is up to Interpid-spec which should be good enough because the money went into the powertrain.

 

[Dave A]

I've heard people ***** about sooooo many insignificant things about that car and it's just sad... they should be hearded to a C6 with an auto then.

The interio, insignificat. What do you smoke, thats a very big part of a car. The Viper's is very bad. I don't know how you view a car, but if it has sooooo many insignificant things wrong with it, that doesn't bode well for the product as a whole. Why should we be hearded to a C6 with an auto? what point are you trying to make, that your better off buying a fast, expensive car with a crap interior than a just as fast or faster, cheaper car with a better interior.

 

[VIPFREAK]

When your holding on for dear life going those speed do you think I give a **** if it has a/c or a radio? uhh... duh.. no... Watching the road.

 

[skip0110]

The interio, insignificat. What do you smoke, thats a very big part of a car. The Viper's is very bad. I don't know how you view a car, but if it has sooooo many insignificant things wrong with it, that doesn't bode well for the product as a whole.

These aren't imperfections, it's just that they weren't a design target for the car. You don't hear people complain about trunk space in an Elise or the lateral g's pulled by an Escalade.

 

[TheCracker]

As for interior... **** that ****... superfical... Do you think anyone gives a **** about an interior vs. the pure performance of a Viper?! And if they do well they don't deserve that car.

If i wanted a car with pure performance and a crappy/basic interior i'd save myself £12k and buy a Ultima 640R which looks better, sounds better, is quicker round corners, is much quicker in a straight line and rides better on average British roads than a Viper does.

When your holding on for dear life going those speed do you think I give a **** if it has a/c or a radio? uhh... duh.. no... Watching the road.

The Enzo's better dynamics would let you tune the radio whilst "going those speed" - no need to hang on for dear life.

 

[Driftster]

These aren't imperfections, it's just that they weren't a design target for the car. You don't hear people complain about trunk space in an Elise or the lateral g's pulled by an Escalade.

That's because you're not taking an Escalade to the Auto X, and you're not sitting in an Elise's trunk...

Which might I add rivals the Vipers interior..

 

[JNasty4G63]

Clarkson likes American cars - he famously bought a Ford GT

Yea, hows that working for him.

.....and rated the Crossfire convertable over the convertable versions of the Audi TT and Nissan 350Z.

Thats like winning by default. They didn't like any of those cars. The Crossfire was just the one they hated least.

For JNasty who posted the R&T article stating the Viper to be fastest have a read of what Steve Millen writes on the test:

I never said it was fastest. Live4Speed simply said that he has always seen everything pointing to the Viper getting beat by much lower class vehicles. I simply looked, and found that article. In which it beat two Porsches, an S2000, and an Elise, which in itself is an amazing track machine. Again, I'm not trying to make it out to be the fastest car around. Just showing that it isn't as bad as many people make it seem.

Using this article as evidence of the Viper's superiority is nonsensical. Given that it has 145bhp more than the 911, and the fact that the track used has a very long back straight yet it only managed to beat the 911 Carrera S by a tenth of a second hardly classes it as a great circuit car does it?

See last comment. I'm not saying the Viper is the greatest track car ever. WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE SEE THIS!!! Read my words, don't just assume.

live4speed and myself can only create our opinions on the Viper from reading magazines such as Evo or Autocar, watching TV shows such as Topgear or 5th Gear or reading comparative lap times around the The Ring or elsewhere. If the wealth of this information points to the Viper being s**t as a track car, then what else are we going to think?

Thats why I'm trying to help. You don't seem to want to listen though, so maybe I'll just stop. I never said the Viper was the greatest car ever built. Never said it would beat anything at the track. I'm simply letting you all know, that around here, we have a lot of Vipers, and many that are tracked. I've seen on many occasions what they can do. Maybe you don't see or read about them enough to know this. Thats why I'm offering info. But, you seem to want to just deny it and shoot it down, so what does it matter.

I personally like the look of the Viper, always have done, but i'm not blinded by fanboyisum or national pride to the extent that i ignore its dynamic limitations. A 500bhp Viper has real difficulty transmitting all its power to the road, why do people think the same car with twice that power find it any easier??

Again, you are greatly simplifying the car.

The Enzo is a car designed by Formula One's most famous manufacturer with 60 years of supercar know how, honed around Fiorano by Ferrari's best chassis enginers and Michael Schumacher to be the worlds most able road car on a track.
The Viper is a unsophisticated pose-mobile for Miami realestaters built to stroke their egos and make-up for any deficiencies they have in the trouser department by the people who brought you the Grand Caravan.

Ok, great, you just summed up what we all know. I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that the Viper is a good car, or a nice daily driver. But, by your logic, you can say the same thing about the Vette and GT, and I doubt people argue their abilities just because of manufacturer. Both are just ego machines, built by the people who brought us the Geo Metro and Ford Fiesta.

If you would just take some time, and listen to what some people are saying, you might understand this. I've seen the Viper race many times. Some full-race set-up, and some just street-prepped. Either way, they are amazing machines when all you need to do is get around a track fast. As fast as an Enzo??? Certainly not, but they also cost about 1/10th the Ferrari, if that. They aren't the greatest street car ever, or the greatest track car ever. But, around a track, they can be very quick. Thats not fanboyism, thats not national pride, or anything like that which you seem to think. Thats just me knowing what they are capable of, and trying to relate that to you.

Hilg

 

[JNasty4G63]

The Enzo's better dynamics would let you tune the radio whilst "going those speed" - no need to hang on for dear life.

What radio????

Hilg

 

[Driftster]

On the ford GT note..
You can't blame the Ford GT for that one..

That's the techs in the uK that don't know how to properly repair a car.

maybe he means..Turn up the climate control?

 

[Dave A]

^ Probably, he had it sent back though, theres a lot of good impressions of the GT in the UK, the magazines like it a lot in the tests.

 

[TheCracker]

Don't get me wrong, i like the Viper, especially the GTSR and ACR. I don't care an awful lot for the RT-10 or latest SRT style, but i'd love a GTS/GTSR/ACR, however unpractical they are to own in the UK. I'm only arguing because i think its more than a little hopeful to think that a Viper or even a 1000bhp Hennessay(sp?) Viper could touch an Enzo on an average race track.