2.09 Tuning Tests by Motor City Tunes and the community

[Motor City Hami]

I am on a quest to better understand the 2.09 physics updates to the online version of GT5. This may benefit the community, but to be honest, this thread is for me. I want to know what I am seeing, feeling and the lap times that I am able to produce with different changes. Feel free to join the discussion, but I am not here to tell other tuners that they are right or wrong. I will test and post the results for everyone to see, discuss and try to make some sense out of 2.09 physics.

I also don’t care about 2.08 or any previous physics from GT5. I will not discuss the past, backwards, real world… none of it. Everything before 2.08 is now irrelevant. It is time to move forward. I am starting from scratch and intend to test one element at a time over the next couple of months in hopes to make myself an even better tuner. I have now won a FITT tuner challenge (Rally and Street), placed 2nd in the next one (Fall Battle) and am leading group A in the current one (2000 Challenge). How much better can my tuning get if I approach 2.09 from scratch? This is my quest.

 

[Motor City Hami]

2.09 Ride Height Testing

To get to my baseline for tuning, I wanted a new dealership, front drive car with 450PP on sport hard tires and an optimized transmission. I have added just enough engine parts to get me to 450PP. I adjusted the suspension settings to mimic the stock settings, not what the stock full suspension kit brings. I have made no adjustments to the stock LSD, ballast or break balance. I was attempting to isolate ride height.

Top Gear Test Track
Online, Tire wear/fuel off, grip reduction real
DS3 and ABS 1

Honda Civic Type R ‘08
289hp, 1270kg, 450PP

GT Auto Services
Oil Change

Installed Parts
ECU Tuning
Sports Intake Manifold
Sports Air Filter
Sports Exhaust Manifold
Titanium Racing Exhaust
Fully Customizable Transmission
Suspension Fully Customizable
Sport Hard Tires

Online Tune
RH various
Springs 3.4/2.1
Dampers Extension 1/1
Dampers Compression 1/1
ARB 1/1
Camber 0.0/0.0
Toe 0.00/0.20
LSD 5/20/10 (stock)
Brake balance 5/5
Ballast 0
Ballast Position 0
Weight Distribution 60/40
Power Level 97.9%

Final Gear to 6.000
Top Speed to 112
1st gear 2.900
2nd gear 2.100
3rd gear 1.650
4th gear 1.365
5th gear 1.175
6th gear 1.035
Top Speed 180km/112mph

Results:
Ride Height 0/0 – the baseline – 1:22.709
Best described as a tippy marshmallow with lazy turn in and lack of mid corner grip. Not bad on exit.
http://youtu.be/sbwY6Iae8JQ

Ride Height min/min @ -20/-20 – 1:22.118
Feels about the same. Still can't get car to turn down to the apex on entry/mid-corner. Car appears less tippy.
http://youtu.be/-t3TWsWbLB4

Ride Height max/max @ 45/45 – 1:22.581
About the same, maybe a hair slower.
Ride height max-max.MOV

Ride Height max/min @ 45/-20 – 1:21.895
The fastest lap time of the test, but really by getting one lucky lap. All other laps were in the same low 1:22 range. Still a pushy, tippy marshmallow.
http://youtu.be/ykjqSJWceIY

Ride Height min/max @ -20/45 – 1:22.034
Still a pushy, but slightly less tippy marshmallow.
http://youtu.be/R4WWzX-89Sg

Initial Conclusions: Ride height seems to do very little in the 2.09 physics update. The slowest setting was 0/0. Maybe PD is rewarding anyone who moves the slider at all? Or maybe I need to go back and run 0/0 again to confirm? Another tuner described it as “the setting has been turned off.” I agree with this for this FF 450PP test. Ride height now seems to have only one use… stance. How do you want your car to look on the replays?

 

[praiano63]

This is it,also some cars that was easy to spin at carroussel ,don't spin anymore.
The medium ride height still have an effect. Today after 2.09 most of the tuners, not only me ,are using higher ride height and negative TOE front and rear principally. Before ,-rear TOE was mostly for lazy FF and 4WD.

 

[MrGrado]

If you knew the differences between offline and online, even before 2.08 and figured out the offline changes to ride height etc at 2.08, then figuring out 2.09 is just a matter of placing the pieces together.

 

[praiano63]

If you knew the differences between offline and online, even before 2.08 and figured out the offline changes to ride height etc at 2.08, then figuring out 2.09 is just a matter of placing the pieces together.

???????????????????????? sorry don't understand very well what you want to mean.
Anyway, there is no differences online offline anymore. But like i've already said in other post
- before 2.08 you could change balance of the car with the help of ride height difference front and rear, online (more sensitive) and offline.
-after 2.08 this was working only online ,they shut down offline.
-after 2.09 it don't work at all, they shut down online and offline.
This is what happen in the game during the last updates, together with some little different grip sensations and cars with the rear more planted , principally FR and MR.

><(((((°>°°°°°°

 

[SolidSnake7735]

Ride height 2.09:

One detail to take note of: all suspensions besides the stock already lowers the car considerably from its stock form. Therefore, any changes made to the fully customizable transmission won't make too much difference because of this aforementioned detail. That being said, ride height in 2.09 has a bigger impact when combined with wheel alignment changes (toe, camber).

I'm not too sure for FD2 Civic, but an EG civic I recently tuned benefitted greatly from sublte ride height and alignment changes. Not so much by way of lap times (2 tenths of a second for fastest lap with different settings) but by way of controlability. Things such as less wheelspin on corner exit at high G's, and initial corner dive on entry.

Also, an Evo IV I recently tuned benefited greatly from having the front around 20mm lower than the front. Allowed more efficient use of the AYC. But if I lowered the car too far, even while maintaining the same height difference front to rear the car understeered more. If I raised it while still maintaining the same front/rear height difference the car would be less stable and twitchy on corner entry.

 

[CSLACR]

???????????????????????? sorry don't understand very well what you want to mean.
Anyway, there is no differences online offline anymore. But like i've already said in other post
- before 2.08 you could change balance of the car with the help of ride height difference front and rear, online (more sensitive) and offline.
-after 2.08 this was working only online ,they shut down offline.
-after 2.09 it don't work at all, they shut down online and offline.
This is what happen in the game during the last updates, together with some little different grip sensations and cars with the rear more planted , principally FR and MR.

><(((((°>°°°°°°

In short:
PD made 2.08, it was supposed to make online/offline the same and "fix" ride height, etc.
As usual, PD didn't get it right the first time, and we ended up with adjusted offline and nothing new online.
2.09 - fixed 2.08, now everything the same and ride height changed for both.

What Grado means is if you learned 2.08 offline, you know 2.09 online, because they're the same.(I think)

Interesting test MCH, I'd recommend running the first one again. (0/0) I don't believe in magic mediums in GT5, (atm) so I suspect it was just an early lap?

 

[Motor City Hami]

Interesting test MCH, I'd recommend running the first one again. (0/0) I don't believe in magic mediums in GT5, (atm) so I suspect it was just an early lap?

I will re-run the 0/0 ride height. I watched all of the videos again and I did blow one corner on the 0/0 lap.

Plan to test camber and toe next.

 

[esoxhntr]

I've never ran max/min or min/max ride heights before so I wont comment on them still working or not. I did/do however run small differences and I believe those *still* work.

Take for instance my 3400S. Each time a new update comes out I test/pray that PD fixed it. With 2.09, -19/-15 still understeers more than -15/-19 [yes, I can feel the difference]

Will be interesting to see how your camber/toe tests compare with mine.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I've never ran max/min or min/max ride heights before so I wont comment on them still working or not. I did/do however run small differences and I believe those *still* work.

Take for instance my 3400S. Each time a new update comes out I test/pray that PD fixed it. With 2.09, -19/-15 still understeers more than -15/-19 [yes, I can feel the difference]

Will be interesting to see how your camber/toe tests compare with mine.

If you (or anyone else) has done tests, feel free to post the results in this thread. Caution: I don't think that the community is going to buy "feel." People are going to want proof - lap times, videos, photos, etc. That's why I posted video and a best lap of five.

I have been going over the videos looking for small differences. I have video editing software. It would be cool to ghost all five runs over the top of each other or next to each other, somehow. Might have to do future tests with five different paint colors?

 

[esoxhntr]

Just sharing my findings and experiences, I don't need anyone to 'buy' anything.

 

[Taz69]

Yea I would like to see what toe and camber tests reveal.. I would also like to see what dampers tests result in ) Keep up the good work Motor City Hami

 

[Maccer_42]

Had some free time tonight and decided to run your experiment myself to see how my results compared to yours, using the same car and settings and track. Hope you don't mind me posting this Motor City Hami, I understand your doing your tests to gain a better personal understanding of 2.09, I just felt like sharing my results.
Though there was some difference between what you got, and what I got.
DS3
ABS: 1
Grip reduction Real
Tyre wear: Off
My fresh out the dealer civic '08 made only 281hp after oil change and your upgrades.
Not sure if I followed your gearbox settings correctly, but my car topped out on track at 104mph and I was hitting the limiter a lot before the first corner, again before the hammer head, and after follow through past the tyres. I entered my gearbox settings in the order you wrote them.
I did 3 laps for each test.

Ride Height = 0/0 Best lap: 1:22.500
Car felt easy to drive, a little slugish and unresponsive moderate pitch and roll, how I imagine a stock car would feel on track.

Ride Height = min/min Best lap: 1:22.122
Car felt more neutrally ballanced, more stable under braking much less nose diving, better response to turn-in when off throttle.

Ride Height = max/max Best lap: 1:21.946
Car felt very marshmallow like, lots of body roll and pitching under braking, car gave conflicting feedback due to the excess roll I felt I was exceeding the grip levels when I wasn't even close to them.

Ride Height = max/min Best lap: 1:22.035
Car felt unusual to drive, felt fast to change direction,front end pulled in much more tighter at low speeds while on throttle particuarlly through the hammer head, seems to push wide on throttle at higher speed.

Ride Height = min/max Best lap: 1:22.180
Car felt unresponsive and slow at initial turn in, but was able to hold a tighter line on throttle through corners like chicago, though if brake late and miss the correct turn in point it was very hard to recover and would push wide.

Seeing as my first test was my slowest I decided to test the 0/0 ride height again to see if my time changed

Ride Height = 0/0 (Test 2) Best lap: 1:21.776


My conclusion:
Results inconclusive.. all I felt I personally learned from this is the more time I spend on track the better my lap times will be, I feel with enough time with each setting I would have been able to get sub 1:22 times with each setting.
On personal "feel" alone, for the best setting I would have to chose min/min. It felt the most stable, the most consistant, and gave the best feedback to my imputs.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Good work by the way and it comfirms what my own informal testing has shown me so I am beginning to believe it's not all in my head!!

Once you introduce a second variable like toe or camber the combinations and permutations become almost endless. Using just three camber settings provides 9 possible combinations of camber front and back x 5 combinations of ride height = 45 tests!!:crazy

To be able to proceed and finish in this lifetime, you'll have to pick a ride height and go from there, or test all the future variables with 0/0 ride height, to remove ride height as a factor. After determining the effects of the variables in isolation, you can then try to combine them for maximum effect.

 

[CSLACR]

If you (or anyone else) has done tests, feel free to post the results in this thread. Caution: I don't think that the community is going to buy "feel." People are going to want proof - lap times, videos, photos, etc. That's why I posted video and a best lap of five.

I have been going over the videos looking for small differences. I have video editing software. It would be cool to ghost all five runs over the top of each other or next to each other, somehow. Might have to do future tests with five different paint colors?

Like this?


I imagine someone in the thread can tell you how.👍 (I haven't the slightest clue)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=187711&page=19

I might actually make a video showing how low front/high rear makes my Gallardo oversteer a bit now. (Yes I said that)
It was pretty definitive, from total understeer at 30/-10 to oversteer entering every corner and less understeer on exit at -10/30.

 

[praiano63]

Here is my test

Track: High speed ring (right left turn before the tunel)

Car:chevrolet corvette Z06 (C5) '04 / 0 km / 395 HP / 1414kg/ 502PP.

Fully custom transmission : set final gear 3.180 it will give you the exact speed in 2cd gear to pass the turns full throttle with the limiter giving you the exact same speed everytime you'll pass there.

Fully custom suspension.

Procedure: Start , turn back in the tunel full throttle second gear, pass the 2 turns ,turn back again, pass again the 2 turns till the tunel.

1-1: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.00/0.00
Passing the turn normally , very neutral ,not showing oversteer or understeer.

1-2: RH -20/+40 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.00/0.00
Same

1-3: RH +40/-20 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.00/0.00
Same

1-4: RH +40/+40 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.00/0.00
Same

Conclusion: No change at all with RH. RH DEAD.

2-1: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 3.0/0.0 - TOE 0.00/0.00
Front a little bit more planted, the car stay more easily inside the 2 turns, few better front grip.

2-2: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/3.0 - TOE 0.00/0.00
Rear a little bit more planted, the front of the car slide slowly to the exterior of the turn, showing a few understeer mid corner.

Conclusion: CAMBER work normaly, but few, need big amout and diff front rear to feel something.


3-1: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE -0.10/0.00
Direction less responsive, soft turn in ,well planted wheel sensation mid and out corner, steady driving line.

3-2: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.10/0.00
Very responsive direction, agressive turn in, mid corner still on the front tires
, pass sudenly on the rear tires out corner, can show oversteer if to much wheel input.

3-3: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.00/-0.10
Neutral direction, good turn in, the rear slide gently till a good steady grip mid corner, round out corner.


3-4: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.00/0.10
Good turn in, stable mid corner, a little lazy out corner, need to print a round out corner with the help of the wheel.

3-5: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.10/-0.10
= (3-2)+(3-3) Agressive turn in, rear slide gently , pass sudenly on the rear tires out corner, can show oversteer if to much wheel input.

3-6: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE -0.10/-0.10
=(3-1)+(3-3) soft turn in, rear slide gently till a good steady grip mid corner, round out corner. For me, this will be my choice for this kind of neutral but not dead cars.

Conclusion: TOE work normaly, it's sensitive, the car react well and its one of the principal setting after 2.09 together with LSD and BALLAST .

 

[Motor City Hami]

Thanks for all of the replys. I think this is what our community should be doing now with the game two years old. Testing and posting results is always welcome in this thread.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Very informative thread so far Hami. My hats off to you for taking the inititive to do all this testing. With the proper testing and proof of results and not just people's theories, this will be a most helpful thread in understanding the new physics. Well done to you and everyone else that has contributed to this thread so far.

 

[Motor City Hami]

More ride height input from tonight's testing, but with conflicting results to my previous tests above.

Test:
Honda S2000 Type V '03
Trail Mountain
DS3, ABS1
Offline, Tire wear/fuel off, grip reduction real

Testing my tune for the FITT 2000 Challenge and thought that Trail Mountain would need higher ride height to deal with the curbing and elevation changes. Tune was at -17/-17 from round one of the competition. Raised ride height to -5/-5 and lost grip on both ends of the car. Lowered back to -10/-10 and some grip returned. Back to -17/-17 and noticed something. At the lower ride height, the outside front would only turn a little red when driving at 100% while the higher ride height would more easily turn the tires red, both front and rear. Plus, I couldn't take the hilly switchbacks after start finish quite as fast as with the lower setting. I saved the replays and will post the videos when I have time.

After noticing the red tire issue, I went back to the tune and lowered the front; -19/-17. Now it is more difficult to turn the front tire red and I easily beat the previous pushed hard ghost by half a second. I will post a link to the tune here and put the car on share. Feel free to give it a go and change ride heights up/down. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7824773#post7824773

I know that I said that I am starting from scratch with 2.09, but I think I just re-learned a principal that I have believed from the beginning of the GT series. If you can move one single adjustment from one end of the slider to the other with little result, the answer to the tuning puzzle is somewhere else for that car. Back to my Honda Civic test for a moment, ride height produced zero gain because that car needs something else to be within its acceptable window before ride height will do anything. <--- thoery at the moment, but will test. I want to go back, optimize the LSD, put other settings kind of in the middle, then zero in on individual settings.

 

[CSLACR]

You know it could also be drivetrain related MCH.

With the proper testing and proof of results and not just people's theories, this will be a most helpful thread in understanding the new physics.

There have always been forms of "proof" in testing and results, but there won't be anything ever "proven" any more definitively than it ever has been at any time.

Informative thread, certainly.👍
But "proving" anything around here will never happen.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

You know it could also be drivetrain related MCH.


There have always been forms of "proof" in testing and results, but there won't be anything ever "proven" any more definitively than it ever has been at any time.

Informative thread, certainly.👍
But "proving" anything around here will never happen.

Apparently you're misunderstanding my post. I have seen plenty of theories thrown around with no testing done at all. People going around saying ridiculous stuff with no testing done at all otherwise they would see just how ridiculous some of their claims are. I wasn't talking about positive proof so to speak, but some testing by these people throwing around some of these theories would clearly show how wrong they were/are.

Anyways, not sure why you felt the need to take your shot at me. Just because I'm not some big name tuner or have my own tuning garage doesn't mean I'm some dumbass that doesn't know how to tune or is clueless when involved in tuning discussions. I've been pretty successful tuning my own cars and helping others with theirs. I don't need a tuning garage to validate my ability to tune a car. I just prefer to help others when asked, thats all.

 

[Motor City Hami]

You know it could also be drivetrain related MCH.

True. Even so, lowering the car produced more grip on that end of the car. It was noticeable. Need to post the videos.

Anyways, not sure why you felt the need to take your shot at me.

Stupid? No. Bad tuner? No. A little hot under the collar sometimes? Probably.

I don't think he was taking a shot directly at you. With the history of the GTP tuning community not being able to agree on many things even when there is stong supporting evidence... well... I think that was what CSLACR was getting at.

OMG... did I just come to CSLACR's defense? That must be another hidden 2.09 programming change from PD. They actually tricked CSLACR and I into working together.

 

[Maccer_42]

3-1: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE -0.10/0.00
Direction less responsive, soft turn in ,well planted wheel sensation mid and out corner, steady driving line.

3-2: RH 0/0 - CAMBER 0.0/0.0 - TOE 0.10/0.00
Very responsive direction, agressive turn in, mid corner still on the front tires
, pass sudenly on the rear tires out corner, can show oversteer if to much wheel input.

Conclusion: TOE work normaly, it's sensitive, the car react well and its one of the principal setting after 2.09 together with LSD and BALLAST .

Toe angles in this game have always been something that cause me great confussion, I'm hoping someone here can help clear things up for me, sorry for the slightly off topic-ness.

From the GT5 settings guides.

Toe Angle
The toe angle is the angle of the tyres when looked at from above. An angle where the front of the tyres is further in than the back of the tyres is known as "Toe-In" and when the front is further out than the back, "Toe-Out"

Looking at the picture in the GT5 Settings menu Toe-in = a positive number, and Toe-Out = a negative number.

The guide then says,

With the front wheels, a toe-in angle will increase the tendancy to understeer when cornering, while a toe-out angle will increase the steering sensitivity.

Praiano, you say Toe works normaly, but from what GT5's settings guide say toe angles should do, you describe the opposite effect.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Hami: While setting up my car for the latest WRS TT, I agree with you on your comment above. I lowered the front and it seemed to have more grip in the front. I reversed it and the grip seemed to go to the back. All my other suspension settings were default and toe/camber were all set at 0. Maybe not a very scientific way of testing, but when I only changed one thing with different results, that pretty much tells me that RH is still in effect. For this car anyway.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Hami: While setting up my car for the latest WRS TT, I agree with you on your comment above. I lowered the front and it seemed to have more grip in the front. I reversed it and the grip seemed to go to the back. All my other suspension settings were default and toe/camber were all set at 0. Maybe not a very scientific way of testing, but when I only changed one thing with different results, that pretty much tells me that RH is still in effect. For this car anyway.

FR muscle, correct?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hami: While setting up my car for the latest WRS TT, I agree with you on your comment above. I lowered the front and it seemed to have more grip in the front. I reversed it and the grip seemed to go to the back. All my other suspension settings were default and toe/camber were all set at 0. Maybe not a very scientific way of testing, but when I only changed one thing with different results, that pretty much tells me that RH is still in effect. For this car anyway.

Did it improve laptimes or just the "feel"? I've often found in GT5 that some stuff produces a better feel and is more enjoyable to drive, but doesn't necessarily result in faster lap times. Be interesting to know if you are faster now with that adjustment:tup:

 

[Motor City Hami]

Did it improve laptimes or just the "feel"? I've often found in GT5 that some stuff produces a better feel and is more enjoyable to drive, but doesn't necessarily result in faster lap times. Be interesting to know if you are faster now with that adjustment:tup:

I was faster with the S2000. Will post lap times and video when I am on again.

 

[praiano63]

Toe angles in this game have always been something that cause me great confussion, I'm hoping someone here can help clear things up for me, sorry for the slightly off topic-ness.

From the GT5 settings guides.



Looking at the picture in the GT5 Settings menu Toe-in = a positive number, and Toe-Out = a negative number.


The guide then says,



Praiano, you say Toe works normaly, but from what GT5's settings guide say toe angles should do, you describe the opposite effect.

I 'm not a specialist , but this is how they describe the effects of TOE settings in a lot of racing sites talking about this. PD description guide about tuning is very poor and uncomplete.
http://www.apexracingleague.com/showthread.php?12769-Car-Setup-Explained-Suspension-and-Wheel-Alignment
....... There is a lot on the net.

 

[gokartman78]

just when I managed to get my head around the tuning on here PD sent me back to step 1 with tuning with these updates . Will definitely be following this thread to try and help me get back on top of this game. Thankyou for being so open and helping others understand the changes, all of you who have posted on this thread 👍

 

[Frisky]

Just a quick tip, don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but when you do a wheelie, or go on two-wheels online. It doesnt show it on anyone elses screen. It just shows a load of smoke