2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[Joey D]

Have you ever driven a fun street car with a stick?

Yes, several. I test drove MINI's with both transmissions and with and without a turbo when I was looking at buying my vehicle. But I've also driven Vette's, Trans Ams, Mustangs, Civic Si's, S2000's, etc.

And there's no way you're "as in control of a car with an automatic."

Pretty bold statement without any proof, I expressed my statements as an opinion, not as fact.

Kinda seems to me like you've never really tried a manual car; of if you did, you never really gave it a shot because after you get used to it, there is no focusing on the gear change that you mention (if you have, thats' cool, but idk how you could come to such a conclusion).

I have, my Neon was a manual, I hated it. I've driven several other vehicles with a manual as well and I equally disliked them as well.

No.

Yes, seriously I'm sick of this crap. You are just as in control with an auto as you are with a manual, why on earth are some of you so biased? The GT-R is proof of this.

Not too many hills around where you live, are there? Or any road with corners actually.

No.

And seriously, driving a manual car in traffic isn't that hard, unless you have atrophy of the left leg or something. It can get annoying, sure, but really, the gain is more than worth the pain.

Read what I wrote, I never said it was hard, I said it was a pain in the backside.

However, a three-pedals-and-a-stick manual will always be more fun to drive, and there's really no argument for removing it from the market other than "some people think it's too much work."

In YOUR opinion it is, do not say always because it just isn't true. Unless of course you have some evidence which shows manuals in relation to fun to drive. I feel as if I have a fairly fun car and I've never thought, "boy I would sure like it better if it was a manual!" I'm sure there are GT-R owners who could not careless either.

===

Like I said I think it's rather ignorant to go on about how bad automatics are. I own a pretty standard automatic transmission (although there are six gears) and I've never in the year I've own my car felt out of control with it or didn't have fun. Unless you are going to race your vehicle, which most people do not, I still see no point in getting a manual. Driven properly you can get the same fuel economy. Like I said if anyone bothered to fully read what I was saying, if you like manuals that is fine, I don't. I wasn't expressing what I wrote either as cold hard facts like some do, it was merely an opinion which is why it has a bunch of "I feel" and "I thinks" in it.

To say on topic though, cars like the GT-R exemplify how an auto can be both fast and in control. Take away all the controversy and it's still a fast car, just maybe not as fast as they claimed.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd completely forgotten your MINI was an auto, Joey. I'd got it into my head that all MINIs were manual! I've driven three, all Cooper Cup cars, and I have to say they do have a damn good manual box, maybe a little notchy but I found it very precise and a shorter throw than I'm used to. The current 6-speed Getrag box is supposed to be even better than the 5-speed from the previous model too. Of the new model, I've only been in the One, and unfortunately I wasn't driving, but the short ratios seem to give it a decent turn of speed even though it's only a 1.4.

Back on topic though, I wouldn't really refer to the GT-R's transmission as an auto in the traditional sense of the word. It's twin clutch and not a torque converter auto, so immediately it has much in common with a traditional manual box. Like many paddleshift cars but unlike most autos it blips the throttle on downchanges, as you would when heel/toeing in a manual. Really, a dual clutch box like the GT-R's is a true hybrid of manual and automatic. That it has an automatic function is more down to it being electronically controlled than it being an actual automatic gearbox.

Because the driver can choose exactly what gear they'd like to be in, it has the potential to be more efficient than a true automatic (note I say potential, rather than claiming it is - in reality many drivers don't know how to extract the best economy from a manual or an auto, though it's easier to get good economy from a manual). There also isn't the same delay when pressing the throttle that you get from a conventional auto because it isn't relying on a torque converter.

It's possibly important to highlight that many drivers who don't consider performance a high priority will be in more control driving an automatic, because they don't have to remove their hands from the wheel, won't be constantly in the wrong gear in different situations, and for the average joe they're even likely to get better fuel economy because again, they won't be in the wrong gear for the conditions.

However, for skilled drivers a manual very likely does have more control (over the engine), as it allows them to have precise say over what gear the car is in at exactly what time. In this respect, the GT-R's transmission might offer the best of both worlds, as a skilled driver does not have to remove their hands from the wheel and therefore more attention can be given to steering and two feet are free to use two pedals at all times.

Is it possible some here are mistaking "control" for "involvement", when referring to autos and dual-clutches?...

 

[slidesquad#1]

That's a very well put post, you basically said what I wanted to, but more eloquently. I would say that the "control" vs "involvement" thing is definitely possible, but for certain situations, like spirited driving as you said, or in hilly, incliney/decliney terrain, I definitely do believe manuals offer more control than conventional auto's.

 

[Rusty*]

That's a very well put post, you basically said what I wanted to, but more eloquently. I would say that the "control" vs "involvement" thing is definitely possible, but for certain situations, like spirited driving as you said, or in hilly, incliney/decliney terrain, I definitely do believe manuals offer more control than conventional auto's.

Yeah I would prefer a manual 'stick' shifter transmission...It's just more fun and requires the driver to focus hard to drive and the fact that it is an additional control over the vehicle is something that will always make it the 'fun' option.

Edit: Scaff...I'm not sure if I'm the only one here and to be honest I don't really care, but I didn't really get the 'asshat' as a definition of someone acting like...what might be more common down under is; acting like an '"ass', just thought in future that maybe you could add another deff instead of asshat if people don't get it(myself...). So yeah basically just clearing things up here lol...you wont get any trouble from me.
Peace,
Rusty*

 

[Omnis]

So am I the only one who is glad the GT-R has a transmission that Bruno Senna thinks is better than the one in his race car?

When did this turn into a manual vs. automatic gearbox thread anyway?

 

[TheCracker]

Edit: Scaff...I'm not sure if I'm the only one here and to be honest I don't really care, but I didn't really get the 'asshat' as a definition of someone acting like...what might be more common down under is; acting like an '"ass', just thought in future that maybe you could add another deff instead of asshat if people don't get it(myself...). So yeah basically just clearing things up here lol...you wont get any trouble from me.
Peace,
Rusty*

You might not know exactly what an 'asshat' is, but i'm pretty sure you'll get the general idea that it's not such a positive thing

 

[Perfect Balance]

Yes, seriously I'm sick of this crap. You are just as in control with an auto as you are with a manual, why on earth are some of you so biased? The GT-R is proof of this.

Did you miss this later on?

I'm talking about conventional "slushboxes" here though.

Like I said I think it's rather ignorant to go on about how bad automatics are. I own a pretty standard automatic transmission (although there are six gears) and I've never in the year I've own my car felt out of control with it or didn't have fun. Unless you are going to race your vehicle, which most people do not, I still see no point in getting a manual. Driven properly you can get the same fuel economy. Like I said if anyone bothered to fully read what I was saying, if you like manuals that is fine, I don't. I wasn't expressing what I wrote either as cold hard facts like some do, it was merely an opinion which is why it has a bunch of "I feel" and "I thinks" in it.

To say on topic though, cars like the GT-R exemplify how an auto can be both fast and in control. Take away all the controversy and it's still a fast car, just maybe not as fast as they claimed.

I've driven an automatic U-haul truck before and felt completely in control the entire time. That isn't the point. The point is that you can control the car better with a manual, and I'm not referring to simply pointing it in which direction you wish to go. This is compared to a conventional automatic here. There have been plenty of example of it in this thread so far, so I'll leave that be.

I can see the benefits of an auto, and I completely understand why someone may like them better than manual, but it's simple logic that you have one more aspect of control when you shift your own gears, which is exactly that, you control exactly when it shifts.

 

[Wolfe]

Yes, seriously I'm sick of this crap. You are just as in control with an auto as you are with a manual, why on earth are some of you so biased? The GT-R is proof of this.

The GT-R does not have what I would call an automatic. It has a sequential manual -- a dual-clutch DSG-style sequential -- that just so happens to have an "automatic" mode.

When I say "automatic," I'm never referring to any transmission that uses a clutch, much less two. I'm always referring to a transmission with a torque converter, and I split my response to you into two parts because of this. Sorry for any confusion.

In YOUR opinion it is, do not say always because it just isn't true. Unless of course you have some evidence which shows manuals in relation to fun to drive. I feel as if I have a fairly fun car and I've never thought, "boy I would sure like it better if it was a manual!" I'm sure there are GT-R owners who could not careless either.

I didn't mean to put it quite so definitively. Since I was talking about "fun," a vague adjective strongly tied to an individual's opinion, and since we were having a two-sided discussion, I figured it would be clear that I was stating an opinion. I apologize.

I want to ask, though, are you even trying to defend traditional automatics? You keep bringing up the GTI and GT-R. It is a fact that a traditional auto lacks control compared to a manual, because the fluid coupling makes for indirect throttle input. It's like the difference between operating a lever with your hand and pouring water into a bucket attached to the end of a lever. Sure, with the latter you can still operate the lever, but it's not the same level of control. I suppose if by "control" you mean "maintaining safe control of the vehicle," you could say an auto offers as much control as a manual, but my definition of "control" goes beyond that (ie. gear choice, clutch manipulation, the throttle point I made above).

Having cleared up the automatic/DSG/sequential distinction at the beginning of this post, I do want to mention that I agree with you, a DSG/seq. offers much of the same control as a manual. However, it still lacks clutch control. I admit I can't think of any example where this is detrimental (TCS makes up for the lack of a clutch in snow), which is why I think a DSG/seq. is fine and dandy, but nonetheless, anything that is automated offers less control than anything that isn't.

As for the "fun" bit, I admit it's difficult to see it the other way around. We're talking about a process (shifting a manual) that is practically effortless, gets you moving and involved in the drive, allows you to "connect" to what the car is doing more completely than any other transmission, and offers complete control over the drivetrain. In a spirited rural drive, these elements should all be positives. In clogged city traffic, you're not having fun no matter what you drive. You can certainly make the case that a manual takes a lot of effort to drive in that clogged city traffic, but I wouldn't expect those of us who drive a manual every day to agree.

 

[Greycap]

You can certainly make the case that a manual takes a lot of effort to drive in that clogged city traffic, but I wouldn't expect those of us who drive a manual every day to agree.

I wouldn't say it takes effort. I would say it takes patience. And that's something I admit I don't have. But, the big point being, it takes just as much patience to sit in the traffic lights behind the wheel of my basic-as-hell Volvo as it takes to do it in a S class Mercedes because it's about sitting in the lights and not about actually driving the car. The shifting is subconscious in those situations, especially if one has driven manual gearbox cars right from the beginning.

 

[Tornado]

Pretty bold statement without any proof, I expressed my statements as an opinion, not as fact.

No offense intended, but its kind of common sense, isn't it?.

Yes, seriously I'm sick of this crap. You are just as in control with an auto as you are with a manual, why on earth are some of you so biased? The GT-R is proof of this.

Except the GT-R is a sequential manual gearbox that happens to have an automatic setting, not an automatic gearbox.

 

[Keef]

Nope, the term slushbox was made to describe automatics. A manual transmission driven by a good driver can be an incredibly fast-shifting setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fwydyrDSkE

Watch that...how can you call that a slushbox?

You do realize that's a sequential manual, right? The clutch only needs to be used to move off from a stop. Kinda of like a NASCAR, but the NASCAR uses an H-pattern shifter. And Indy cars. They're sequential. There's a lot of race cars that have a mechanically operated sequential manual. It just so happens that the clutches in a DSG, F1, SMG, and the GT-R's transmission are electronically controlled. There's not really much difference. So I don't see your argument.

 

[kingcars]

Funny how the responses to my previous post have skipped over a good bit of what I said. homeforsummer's points are good too. Unless you're getting an upper end car with an auto, they tend to be rather erratic and annoying (not all, but many). I'm not here trying to say that manuals are better for performance and all that jazz, but for ME, I don't like driving an automatic. It feels dull and disconnected from the driving experience.

 

[///M-Spec]

I'm pretty sure I've posted something along these lines before, but I don't remember what thread it was in, so here's another one.

Not all 'autos' are the same.

There's your run of the mill econobox/family car automatic with a P-R-N-D-2-1 selector. It might have 4 speeds or in some cases, 5. No paddles, no shift gate. These traditional old-school torque converter 'boxes are every bit as bad as manual fans say they are.

And here's why: You are driving down a winding country road in said rental/econobox/family car. There is a sweeping turn with great visibility ahead and you want to have a little fun. Your econobox has a 4 banger of about 2 liters and produces 130 lb-ft of torque from about 3800 to 4400 RPM. It's about 140 hp. Your econobox transmission is a 4 speed unit with the following ratios: 3.54 1.90 1.31 0.96 with a 3.94 final drive.

So as you approach the turn and begin braking, the transmission assumes you don't need any power, so it selects the overdriven 4th gear. .96 x 3.94 means you potentially have somewhere around 491 lb-ft of peak torque at the front wheels available before drivetrain losses. But since the motor is now running around 2000 RPM, you probably only have half of that.

As you finish braking, you head towards the apex to accelerate. Only you now have two problems. The first problem is when you depress the accelerator, the transmission will kick down into a lower gear. This is exactly what it is supposed to do, so what's the problem? The problem is you don't know exactly when it's going to kick down. So you hesitate and wonder. I think it's reasonable to say that hesitating about what your car is going to do is NOT excersising much control over it.

So the tranny finally does kick down and finds a gear, say 2nd. Everything's fine now right? Well no, because now you have your second problem: you've now dramatically changed the amount of torque directed to the front wheels in the middle of your turn. You started heading towards the apex with about 250 ft-lbs. Now that the car is in 2nd gear in the torque peak and screaming towards your 6400 RPM redline, you're now putting 1.90 (2nd gear) x 3.94 (final drive) = 973 ft-lbs. (before drivetrain loss) to the wheels. About 4 times more than you had a second ago. Meanwhile, chances are good that you've already past the apex of your turn, while you had the outside front tire loaded up in hard cornering. Instant recipe for all sorts of handling problems, all of which having to do with the front of the car plowing away from your apex and towards the trees.

It's not that dramatic, since you are only driving a 140 hp rental car with all season touring tires that are already half shot. Unless you're an idiot you probably won't crash. But it's not my idea of fun and it's certainly NOT my idea of CONTROL.

BUT. Like I wrote earlier, not all automatics are the same. There are performance automatics that don't have the same bad habits their econobox/family car cousins do. For one, they have 5, 6, 7 or even 8 direct driven gears where the torque converter is only used to get the car moving from a stop. And you can select the gears manually. AND some of them will hold a gear no matter what you do with the throttle.

So in that same scenario above, you are NOT spending (much) time wondering when the transmission is going to kick down AND your aren't going to get no torque, then suddenly a lot all at once.

IMO, as long as a transmission's gear ratio is a) user selectable, b) shifts in a reasonable amount of time and c) HOLDS the gear regardless of throttle position and engine speed*, there is no objective reason to say a manual is any better. In fact, those qualities are the same qualities that make manuals so great.

Like everyone here, I haven't driven a GT-R. But I can say with reasonable certainty that the transmission in that car satisfies all three criteria. *Many performance autos, like Porsche/Audi's Tiptronic and BMW's STEPTRONIC will automatically upshift at the redline. Boo!

That being said, given the choice between auto and manual, I'm going to stick with manual in my personal car for the foreseeable future. Subjectively, it's still more fun to heel-toe, rev match and make the occasional mistake. But sometimes, I enjoy driving my wife's car which is a Tip. But that's probably because I'm geezing.



M

 

[Wolfe]

I would personally add two more elements to that list, ///M-Spec, things that I mentioned before: crisp throttle response and engine braking, though both are kinda related and could probably be condensed into "crisp throttle response."

It isn't just that I want to select my own gear whenever I want, "right now," and stay in that gear until I want another (to paraphrase your list). I want the engine to be at the beck and call of my right foot, and I want to have full control of my vehicle's handling in all weather conditions and at all speeds (the same reasons I'm wary of electronic throttles). A direct, clutch-driven connection between the engine and transmission is what I need, and although I have yet to drive any high-end sporty automatic (the closest being the 4EAT in my best friend's SVX), physics and mechanics dictate that I probably won't be impressed.

That's exactly why DSG is good. It offers automatic fans effort-free driving while offering manual fans the throttle control and gear selection they desire.

 

[Joey D]

I have to disagree with most of the points being made, I can control my car just fine with an auto. Maybe the gear box in my car is better then other autos (although other then six gears I see nothing special about it), I've never felt a lack of power going through corners and I've never felt like my throttle response is reduced in any way. I have the tap shift feature as well as paddles which I hardly ever use, but when I do the gear change is quick.

Perhaps another thread on transmissions is in order? Or the continuation of an existing one?

 

[Wolfe]

@Joey: When you lightly but quickly "stomp" the throttle from 0% to 50%, and then quickly lift your foot, does the Mini immediately snap to attention and then immediately snap into engine braking (not just the engine revving, but the car's acceleration)? I can understand if you don't require such an extreme to feel like you're in control, but I won't take anything less.

Also, does the transmission just shift "quickly," or does it shift almost immediately after you've pressed the paddle? When I drove that 525ti in 2005 (another, older BMW with an auto) I swear it took at least a full second to shift after I told it to. It didn't squat between gears during that time. It just didn't even begin to shift.

 

[Joey D]

@Joey: When you lightly but quickly "stomp" the throttle from 0% to 50%, and then quickly lift your foot, does the Mini immediately snap to attention and then immediately snap into engine braking (not just the engine revving, but the car's acceleration)? I can understand if you don't require such an extreme to feel like you're in control, but I won't take anything less.

With the "sport" button engaged yes it does. Under normal operation I don't really know, I've never tried it. I wouldn't like that under normal driving though, I like my car to be smooth.

Also, does the transmission just shift "quickly," or does it shift almost immediately after you've pressed the paddle? When I drove that 525ti in 2005 (another, older BMW with an auto) I swear it took at least a full second to shift after I told it to. It didn't squat between gears during that time. It just didn't even begin to shift.

It isn't as fast as the DSG transmission but it's not a second. It's fast enough for me when I do use it. It shifts faster then I can in a manual so to me it's fast.

 

[the Interceptor]

I drive a DSG-equipped Seat quite regularly, but despite the advantages of being able to put it in auto mode in heavy traffic, I prefer the manual of my BMW. In the Seat, I often catch myself adapting my driving style to the gearbox to make it work nicely. I don't want that. I want to drive my car the way I'd like to, and it's only a manual that enables me to.

 

[kingcars]

IMO, as long as a transmission's gear ratio is a) user selectable, b) shifts in a reasonable amount of time and c) HOLDS the gear regardless of throttle position and engine speed*, there is no objective reason to say a manual is any better. In fact, those qualities are the same qualities that make manuals so great.

I agree with your whole post, M. However, I'm not sure on this, so somebody with more knowledge can chime in, but don't autos still suck up a higher percentage of horsepower than manuals? Also, in most cases, manuals are lighter than automatics. I know when I did the 5 speed swap in my Tbird, the manual is a good 50-75lbs lighter than the old automatic (and as a result, the front of my car sits a tad higher).

Do you guys wanna start a manual vs auto discussion thread? Maybe a mod can move the posts over there or something?

 

[Wolfe]

This is tangentially relevant, considering the GT-R's dual-clutch sequential transmission.

@Joey: I could probably live with a transmission like yours, but I still would rather stir my own gears and let my left foot handle power delivery to the transmission.

 

[Tornado]

but don't autos still suck up a higher percentage of horsepower than manuals?

Yes. The power loss is higher (because there is more slippage, I believe).

 

[Joey D]

@Joey: I could probably live with a transmission like yours, but I still would rather stir my own gears and let my left foot handle power delivery to the transmission.

Which is fine, I realise people will have their preferences with their vehicles. I just rather dislike it when people come in and say autos can't be any good and manuals will always be better. You may prefer a manual gear box but that doesn't make it any better or worse then an auto. I don't mind manuals, I've driven several of them and if I was going to autocross I would probably have a manual car, but for daily driving I find them to be an absolute pain. Mainly because my commute to school or work is typically in heavy traffic both ways.

 

[///M-Spec]

Re: Off Topic/Tangential discussions

I don't generally have a problem with mild off topic discussion so long as it stays productive and informative.

In this case, the issue of manual vs. automatic is related to the GT-R, which is only available with the latter.

But since some of you are requesting a separate thread, I did conduct a quick search for an existing manual vs. auto thread. I was surprised not to find one specifically devoted to the debate. (even though it gets debated everywhere else)

So now we do.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=111714


I have some replies for Wolfe, Joey and kingcars. Please look for them in the new thread.


M

 

[Leonidae]

This just in.. PDK broken in less than 10 days.

 

[Joey D]

This just in.. PDK broken in less than 10 days.

With a gear box failure none the less, seems GT-R's have suffered similar fates. Are companies just beefing up the engines without bothering to put a proper gear box in that can with stand the punishment?

 

[homeforsummer]

This just in.. PDK broken in less than 10 days.

This just in: On it's own, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the GT-R. And even in relation to the previous Porsche vs. Nissan discussion, it has nothing to do with that either.

 

[Leonidae]

Is it really that hard to fathom? *shakes head* it is of course an indication that Porsche's gearbox is is just as reliable.. or actually even less so than GT-R's. Atleast GT-R went through several launches before surrendering, this one didn't get a single one. I'm pretty sure that this will be blown out of proportions just like GT-R's GR6-units issues.

 

[niky]

As the poster is a one-time poster with no other threads, we don't know anything at this point. At least the complainant at NAGTROC is a known quantity.

And it won't get blown out of proportion. Porsches are unbreakable... at least on the internet.

 

[Leonidae]

Yes, I can see MonaroCoutnry and HeavyChevy covering this up in the best secret agency manner..

 

[homeforsummer]

Is it really that hard to fathom? *shakes head* it is of course an indication that Porsche's gearbox is is just as reliable.. or actually even less so than GT-R's. Atleast GT-R went through several launches before surrendering, this one didn't get a single one. I'm pretty sure that this will be blown out of proportions just like GT-R's GR6-units issues.

I understood what you meant, but the way you introduced it without even using one of the previous GT-R breakage posts as a comparison came across as a bit "look porsches r wurse than nissans lolz GT-R rulez!". I know from previous posts that you aren't a fan of Porsche and do like the GT-R (I happen to like both), but I struggle to see the point in using the GT-R thread as a place to discuss Porsche problems, just because the two manufacturers have had a tiff recently.