2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[niky]

BTW, excellent post, herr ///M-Spec... +rep if I could give it.

The whole argument, again, is silly.

I may be defending Nissan here against its detractors, but only in the role of devil's advocate.

Still, the statement stands... nobody has proven congruity between Rohl's run and Nissan's run. A partially wet track means it is partially dry, thus amibent temperature plays a big role in lap times... and, no, cold weather (which, yes, we can assume, but are not entirely sure of) does not give you enough of a performance boost to offset loss of traction and the increased drag down the ridiculously long back straight on the Nurb (you lose a lot of top-end at over 150 mph in cold weather).

A man's opinion on a car's potential lap time, after driving it in certain conditions does not constitute fact. It is still opinion.

One run on a partially wet, possibly pretty cold and slick track (or possibly not very cold and only somewhat slick) does not constitute proof with finality. Whereas numerous different people thrashing the hell out of their R34s and not coming close to Nissan's time is empirical evidence that points to the likelihood of Nissan using a Skyline in a wildly different state of tune (which is quite possible).

The point is: the lap time is still in the nether region of possibility. It seems suspiciously fast, but it cannot be directly disproven unless the vehicle in question is tested back-to-back against a vehicle with the same claimed lap time at this venue or a similar one.

The difference in argument, forza2.0, that you are not getting is: we have not declared with finality that Nissan's claim is "truth", whereas, at every turn, you have said, with finality and urgency, that it is completely fiction and completely impossible. Why do people keep bringing up tires? Simply because your initial assertion was the impossiblity of a certain time without the use of "semi-racing" tires.

Anyway, I hope this issue can be dropped for the meantime. Personally, I'd love to see it. I have no doubt a 911 GT2 or GT3 could be faster on a technical circuit, but I think the GT-R could give the Turbo a pretty hard time.

 

[forza2.0]

The difference in argument, forza2.0, that you are not getting is: we have not declared with finality that Nissan's claim is "truth", whereas, at every turn, you have said, with finality and urgency, that it is completely fiction and completely impossible. Why do people keep bringing up tires? Simply because your initial assertion was the impossiblity of a certain time without the use of "semi-racing" tires.

read the rest of the thread

 

[niky]

I have.

I stand by what I said though. The GTR will not do the 'ring in under 7 mins 50 unless with semi racing tires. If it was any other car with the same stats as the GTR but without the badge I would say it would struggle to do the 'ring in under 8 mins with semi racing tires.

So the GTR will be faster than all those cars listed below right?

Corvette C6 Z06 ------------------------------------------ 7.49 min
Lamborghini Murciélago -------------------------------- 7.50 min
BMW M3 CSL -------------------------------------------- 7.50 min
Ford GT -------------------------------------------------- 7.52 min
Lamborghini Gallardo ----------------------------------- 7.52 min
Mercedes SLR ------------------------------------------- 7.52 min
Porsche 997 Turbo ---------------------------- 7.54 min (semi-R-tires)
Mercedes CLK-DTM ------------------------------------- 7.54 min semi R tires
Ferrari F430 ------------------------------------------- 7.55 min
Ferrari 360 CS ------------------------------------------- 7.56 min
Aston Martin V8 Vantage --------------------------------- 8.03 min (R-tires)
Lamborghini Diablo GT --------------------------------- 8.04 min
Audi R8 -------------------------------------------------- 8.04 min semi racing tires
Porsche Carrera S (997) -------------------------------- 8.05 min semi racing tire
Ferrari 575M --------------------------------------------- 8.05 min
Ferrari 550M --------------------------------------------- 8.07 min
BMW M6 -------------------------------------------------- 8.09 min
Ferrari 360M --------------------------------------------- 8.09 min

And yet your favorite authority did it in 7:50 on a partially wet track on stock tires in one of the colder months of the year. Not semi-race, as previously argued, but definitely street-compound ultra-high performance tires... which, if you'd like to compare to true street-legal racing tires, are still quite a few ticks slower against the clock.

It means there may be a possibility that it can do it close to Nissan's claimed time. But if data shows that the weather is comparable between the two runs (were they run at the same time of the year, for example?) then it's also possible that Nissan was lying.

Still haven't seen a smoking gun pointing either way yet...

But I must say... looking at your list... 7:50 is shtonkingly fast for the GT-R's PWR.

 

[Scaff]

Auto express it says so in the first line.

Would it have been that hard to actually bother putting quote tags around it and explaining that it came from Auto express. It also might of helped if you had put some comments of your own in the post as well.

Regardless of your intentions, it has the potential to come across as if you are passing it off as your own work. Not the smartest move at all. Its not difficult to actually formally acknowledge quoted material (and some would say its only polite), and in doing so you would have both made your point more clearly and avoided confusion.

Please take more care in the future.


Scaff

 

[Prosthetic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2U1Fw5nE-8

There is evidence of the 7'38 lap time. And remember the R33 GTR has well less then 300hp and was the first road car to go around the Nurburgring in less then 8'00. And now with 150+hp more better breaks, new engine, better tires, better everything. Nissan certainly isn't messing around with this car, and you need to start acting like they can't beat a Corvette? When they built the R33 it was faster then the C5... Still is, now there making a brand new one to put in Americas face. And please don't jump out and say "STFU U SKYLINE 13 YR OLD FANBOI" cause I respect all cars equally. And I have to say this is one hell of a car to be introduced to America. Best car of the year? No, Big step for Nissan and killer car to be introduced to American and compete with cars with more power and more cost? Yes. I think this is a big step for Nissan in the performance industry and thats a good thing


EDIT: Scaff you typed you instead of your

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2U1Fw5nE-8

There is evidence of the 7'38 lap time. And remember the R33 GTR has well less then 300hp and was the first road car to go around the Nurburgring in less then 8'00. And now with 150+hp more better breaks, new engine, better tires, better everything. Nissan certainly isn't messing around with this car, and you need to start acting like they can't beat a Corvette? When they built the R33 it was faster then the C5... Still is, now there making a brand new one to put in Americas face. And please don't jump out and say "STFU U SKYLINE 13 YR OLD FANBOI" cause I respect all cars equally. And I have to say this is one hell of a car to be introduced to America. Best car of the year? No, Big step for Nissan and killer car to be introduced to American and compete with cars with more power and more cost? Yes. I think this is a big step for Nissan in the performance industry and thats a good thing


EDIT: Scaff you typed you instead of your

you havent read much of this thread have you?

 

[forza2.0]

I have.



And yet your favorite authority did it in 7:50 on a partially wet track on stock tires in one of the colder months of the year. Not semi-race, as previously argued, but definitely street-compound ultra-high performance tires... which, if you'd like to compare to true street-legal racing tires, are still quite a few ticks slower against the clock.

It means there may be a possibility that it can do it close to Nissan's claimed time. But if data shows that the weather is comparable between the two runs (were they run at the same time of the year, for example?) then it's also possible that Nissan was lying.

Still haven't seen a smoking gun pointing either way yet...

But I must say... looking at your list... 7:50 is shtonkingly fast for the GT-R's PWR.

It is, hence it wont go much if any faster when independantly tested

 

[Dave A]

Even though that time was on a partially wet track, you think it can't go much if any faster in the dry. I have to say, that's odd. Everyone knows that it will be faster in the dry, the question is, to what extent. I'd wager a good dry run will knock off between 5-10 seconds. Ofcourse, that's simply an educated guess, and it holds as much factual weight as both of your arguments.

 

[forza2.0]

Even though that time was on a partially wet track, you think it can't go much if any faster in the dry. I have to say, that's odd. Everyone knows that it will be faster in the dry, the question is, to what extent. I'd wager a good dry run will knock off between 5-10 seconds. Ofcourse, that's simply an educated guess, and it holds as much factual weight as both of your arguments.

We dont know what they mean about partially dry. For all we know it could be a tiny section.

Anyway I have found out some new things, and they do indicate that the GTR lap times were actually done around summer time.

Kazutoshi Mizuno, project leader of the GT-R, said the 3835-lb. car accelerates from zero to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, and to the quarter-mile mark in 11.7. He emphasized that he used R&T's road test procedures as a guideline — his assistant actually called us during their test to ask about the spacing between cones for the slalom. If he got everything right, the GT-R is among the fastest production cars in the world.

The handling portion of our evaluation occurred at the Nürburgring's south course, home of the German Grand Prix. It has a variety of corners and elevation changes that'll challenge anything on four wheels and punish brakes and tires. Our silver test car felt right at home around the 3.2-mile circuit. The structural rigidity of the GT-R is rock-solid. The suspension, toggled to "R" for this venue (there are also Comfort and Sports settings), felt race-car stiff and provided excellent stability through all variety of turns.


A few months after the Nürburgring event, Mizuno gave me a unique opportunity to sample a left-hand-drive U.S.-spec GT-R.

So that explains why the nissans 0-60 mph is rated so high, r&t data is always much faster than everyone.

 

[YSSMAN]

Its hard to say for certain. If you use the calculations for estimating 0-60 times (time = kg / [BHP X 0.9])

If the 3.5 second figure is correct, the GT-R would need 553 BHP to do so (if my math is correct), which seems a bit odd in the end. Doing stright-up figures that we know for a fact, the GT-R should be doing 0-60 times in about 4 seconds, give or take about a tenth of a second.

Normally R&T times are off of my standard, Car and Driver, but it usually depends on the vehicle. My guess is that they'd probably get the same high 3 second range as well, but thats mostly thanks to the DSG-style box that should make shifts the same for everyone.

===

Let the American magazines, and Top Gear, get a real crack at it and I'd be interested to see how things turn out. For the nearly $90K price that you'd likely be paying here in the US (price + dealer markups + consumer bids), it just doesn't seem worth it, particularly when its not much better than the Z06 and SRT-10 Coupe.

 

[Kent]

Let's not forget that 4wd and a heavy weight usually restrict what a car can do... Not to say the GT-R will handle poorly but those basics must be considered when addressing comparisons to other more "pure" light weight, rear wheel drive sports cars.

My guess is that the GT-R will be just a touch faster than the Z-tune R34.
That would put it around the speed of a Gallardo (although slightly faster). Of course, I'm not really sure about that since there is no way to account for the tires of the new GT-R v. the tires of the previous Z-tune.

 

[Dave A]

You can't calculate a cars 0-60 time with the figures we have on the car, it's not that simple. We don't know the grip levels of the tyres, the ideal temerature for the tyre's. How good the cars traction control works and how much power it will apply if you press the accelerator down x hard off the line. We just don't have nearly enough figures to say this car needs x ammount of power to hit 60 in x ammount of time.

We dont know what they mean about partially dry. For all we know it could be a tiny section.

Anyway I have found out some new things, and they do indicate that the GTR lap times were actually done around summer time.

So, wet is still wet. A slippy track with warm air being sucked into the engine is possibly the worst time to track a car at all. The warm air will reduce the power and the slippy track will reduce the grip. Of course a warm day has it's pluses, more grip to the tyre,s but it has it's negatives too, less power in the engine. To say it happened on a partially wet track during the summer does nothing to help your cause, it pretty much leaves the argument exactley where it was before you made the comment. Neither here nor there.

 

[forza2.0]

the way nissan described it I stink of a track that was damp in a few places. I mean nissan were there for about half a year, do you really think the only time they recorded lap times when it happened to be wet?

 

[Dave A]

No I don't, but I don't but do you think that the only thing they were doing there was seeing how fast it could go. They were there devloping the car, finding this that needed improving, things they wanted to change. They wern't there to hot lap a development car around the ring and that is that. When the car is in the hands of journalists we will see how fast it really can go, but all this testing from Nissan in inconclusive. They were devloping the car, sure they will have hot lapped it, but the car is still pre-production. We don't know how many times it was hotlapped, all your achieving is shifting the focus of the speculation from one aspect to another, still leaving the argument swinging.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Anyway I have found out some new things, and they do indicate that the GTR lap times were actually done around summer time.

You realize that snippet proves absolutely nothing of the sort, right? It's the GP circuit they talk about there.

 

[Scaff]

Anyway I have found out some new things, and they do indicate that the GTR lap times were actually done around summer time.

Care to share, rather than just posting an unsubstantiated claim.


Scaff

 

[kikie]

I hope this isn't a repost.


GT-R and GT500 GT-R videos

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Nissan GTR

The GTR is gunning for the Porsche 911 Turbo. Steve Sutcliffe finds out if it's got enough firepower...


You’re going to like the new Nissan R35 GTR. A lot. But you’re also going to have to wait for it, like it or not. The official line from Nissan GB is that it won’t go on sale in the UK until, yawn, March 2009 – and when it does it’ll cost ‘between £55,000-60,000.’

Unofficially, it went on sale in Japan on December 5 for 7.7 million Yen (just over £31,000, ouch!). And although the first 2500 out of the annual 10,000 production run have already been sold, there’s another reason why you won’t be seeing GTRs in the UK for a while yet.

Nissan GB is threatening to punish anyone Tesco-Levi Jeans style who imports and tries to sell an R35 GTR in this country for anything less than the intended list price. Grey importers, in other words, won’t be getting their hands on cars anytime soon, not to sell on at a profit at any rate.

Which is a pity because, having just driven the car in Japan on both road and track, I can tell you it’s a heck of a machine. Not just quick with a capital F (you expect that from a car with 477bhp and four-wheel-drive, even if it does weigh a lardy-sounding 1740kg) but also mind-spankingly composed. Way more so than a Porsche 911 turbo if you really start to lean on it, which is maybe not surprising considering Nissan benchmarked the Turbo during every inch of the GTR’s five year development program.


The technical highlights of the new GTR come at you so thick and fast it’s hard to know quite where to begin. If the engine spec sounds impressive – it’s a bespoke 3.8-litre V6 which, says NISMO, bears only a passing relation to the 3.8-litre V6 of the Infiniti G35 and 350Z but which does have twin IHI turbos and develops 477bhp and 433lb ft – then the chassis is very much the centre piece of the car technically.

As with previous GTRs it’s four wheel drive and centrally controlled by a very clever brace of computers, but this time it’s massively more complex and allows you to do things on the road which no other car will allow. The reasons why are various, and not especially simple to understand.

For starters there’s just one rear-mounted transaxle into which every key component of the drivetrain is contained. No one’s ever done that before but, says Nissan, this adds strength and saves weight compared with a conventional four wheel-drive-system (although that still doesn’t explain why the GTR weighs as much as it does).

Chief engineer of the entire GTR project, Mizuno-san, reckons he could just about get the weight down to below 1600kg if pushed – by reducing the huge 380mm brakes front and rear, swapping to lighter conventional tyres in place of the standard run flats and binning many of the interior luxuries (heated electric seats, cruise control, BOSE stereo etc). But in doing so he’d need to sacrifice too much of the GTRs inherent strength and durability. So when the V-Spec version appears in Japan in ‘about one year’s time’ expect it to be half way between the two extremes. Around 1650kg in weight and even more focused than the standard GTR we drive here.


Not that the standard GTR is what you’d call blunt. Genuinely it feels sharper than a 911 Turbo on the road, which is saying something. More accelerative (the official zero to 60mph is 3.5sec, the top speed 194mph), better steering, less roly-poly during high speed direction changes, and more sorted generally, especially on a track.

Nissan claims its testers have recorded a 7min 37sec lap of the Nurburgring but, apparently, certain sections of the lap were wet when the time was set. They also have data for a 7min 38sec lap on which the driver was blocked by a slower car for several corners. Both laps were recorded using original equipment Bridgestone RE070A tyres, in other words with the car containing no secret tweaks or tricks.

In reality they reckon it’ll do a low seven-thirty – maybe a 31 or 32 – whereas a 911 Turbo wearing far more trick rubber with Walter the wheelman at the controls, could ‘only’ manage 7min 40sec. Truth is the GTR is a good 10sec quicker round the ‘Ring, maybe a little bit more.


And on the road it feels even quicker than that. Lag from the twin-turbo 3.8 is almost non-existent above 2500rpm, and by 3000rpm it fires the GTR towards the horizon with such conviction you wonder whether the tarmac can take it. Partly it’s the traction but mostly it’s the pure and efficient flow of power to the road that makes the GTR feel so rapid. And that’s before you so much as mention what it can do through corners, which is when the gap between it and the 911 Turbo really opens up.

There are no less than three driver aid systems, each of which can be tailored to suit an individual’s preferences. One controls the dampers, another the TC system, and another both the traction and stability systems. You can set them each to Race, Normal, or switch ‘em off completely, depending what road surface you’re driving on. And how brave you’re feeling at the time.

With everything set in Race the GTR can be driven very aggressively on the throttle, especially on the way out of corners, mainly because it’s been designed to dial out understeer in this mode. So when you feel the nose running wide in, say, a third gear corner, rather than backing off to shed speed, you plant the throttle harder and, instantly, more torque flows to the rear axle and, presto, the understeer goes away. Then as if by

magic the nose tightens its line and you scream out of the corner with a whiff of opposite lock applied. And a round of applause from any one who happens to be watching.

Switch the TC off altogether and the tail will come right round if you give it the full beans, but at the same time there’s still enough torque at the front axle to pull you out of the corner. Result? M3 style sideways amusement but with monster traction (read huge ground speed) thrown in as a bonus.

And then there’s the interior, which is a surprisingly decent place in which to spend time, the proper sized boot, the never-ending standard equipment list, the looks. And the image.


The only downside is that the ride is stiff to the point of irritation over rough surfaces, even with the dampers set to Comfort. That could be a real issue in the UK, what with our beautifully surfaced, not even remotely pockmarked roads. But Nissan GB has time to sort that locally. And in any case, you’d be inclined visit the dentist more often if the rest of the car is as sensational as it is.

Tech note; the twin turbos are no longer ceramic so the R35 GTR can no longer be tuned with relative ease to deliver massively more horsepower than standard. In fact, Nissan has written an anti-modification program into the ECU software to prevent the GTR from being tuned. They are even talking about de-validating the warranty on cars they know have been tampered with, although for sure someone, somewhere will find a way to tune their car. What’s not known, however, is how much more the new bottom end can take. The rumour is circa 600bhp, possibly less.

sorry but was there an invisible car in that video that i couldnt see but nissan test drivers can?

im guessing nissan have one of those books of excuses and they are just running through it.

 

[Onikaze]

The bit about tossing the tail out and clawing around the corners anyways makes me hope it's implemented well in GT5.

I got a kick out of setting skylines up for retarded drifts near the end of my playtime.

 

[Greycap]

sorry but was there an invisible car in that video that i couldnt see but nissan test drivers can?

im guessing nissan have one of those books of excuses and they are just running through it.

If you want to go this route again, how do you know it was the same lap that was recorded? They say they have data on it. Data doesn't equal video footage, does it? Nissan may have a book of excuses but you seem to have a book of unproven arguments.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

If you want to go this route again, how do you know it was the same lap that was recorded? They say they have data on it. Data doesn't equal video footage, does it? Nissan may have a book of excuses but you seem to have a book of unproven arguments.

not really it makes sense they are just making excuses now,if they had date on a 7:37 lap why are they still going with the 7:38 lap? i mean they have the data so it should be easy to prove right? if the 7:38 lap was because they were held up by a slower car why does it show them doing a 7:38 on a clear lap that was wet in a couple of places.

like forza says nissan were there for over a year yet they only did thier fast laps when the track was ether wet or busy? yeah right.

 

[forza2.0]

I cant believe people are buying nissans crap. They have been shown to have lied in the past, and now yet again details and info is sketchy, and day by day more evidence surfaces against nissan.

Atleast we now have evidence of the video being misleading and further proof of nissan lying. Their marketing department has made a boo boo

tyre info on the GTR for US markets:

Behind the massive 20-inch wheels are similarly large two-piece Brembo brakes. In Japan, the GT-R comes with either Bridgestone Potenza RE070R or Dunlop SP Sport 600 rubber. North America–bound cars will most likely be equipped with the Bridgestones or, as part of a cold-weather package, Dunlop SP Sport 7010 A/S tires. The all-season Dunlops look more like three-season tires, but Nissan insists that the GT-R can stop and turn in snowy weather when thusly equipped. Any residents of cold-weather states would be well advised to pick up some Bridgestone Blizzak winter tires, which are conveniently available in the stock 255/40R-20 front and 285/35R-20 rear sizes.

 

[Greycap]

like forza says nissan were there for over a year yet they only did thier fast laps when the track was ether wet or busy? yeah right.

Did you happen to know that they only finished the suspension settings less than a month before the release of the car? As we all know, times before that have no value as the car wasn't a production model then. And warm dry days are quite rare in the late autumn of Germany, so what if they really didn't have the chance to run a fast lap in goods conditions?

I cant believe people are buying nissans crap. They have been shown to have lied in the past, and now yet again details and info is sketchy, and day by day more evidence surfaces against nissan.

Atleast we now have evidence of the video being misleading and further proof of nissan lying. Their marketing department has made a boo boo

Show us a car manufacturer that has never lied. They all do it to look better than the competitors. If this world worked on the basis of what happened in the past, nobody could do anything as it would be misleading and certainly a lie because they lied when they were kids and thus have no legitability left. Oh, and I have yet to see this new evidence you're celebrating on, care to share it?

Nissan claims. Claims. It's not "Nissan swears the truth is", it's "Nissan claims". But it can be, note, "can be", not "is", the truth. There were people sure of the GT-R's incapability to lap the Nürburgring in under eight minutes. It managed that easily in unfavourable weather conditions. Give us one definite proof to why it's impossible for it to be as fast as Nissan claims. There is none. Should we really take only your word as a rule? Why doesn't my word do, it's just as educated as yours? Oh, of course. It's because I'm on Nissan's side, that automatically invalidates my opinions.

You say the video was misleading. You say you have the evidence. What's that evidence? The fact that it only did 7'50 on a semi wet track? As I've said before, the Carrera GT lost twelve seconds to its record lap when driven in similar conditions. And I still don't understand why it's possible that it happens to the almighty Porsche, but not to Nissan. Maybe I'm just too much of a Nissan fanboy to work out simple things like that.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Did you happen to know that they only finished the suspension settings less than a month before the release of the car? As we all know, times before that have no value as the car wasn't a production model then. And warm dry days are quite rare in the late autumn of Germany, so what if they really didn't have the chance to run a fast lap in goods conditions?

so considering the lap was claimed to be done in september time and the car is released on the 9th of december so the car in the video isnt even an accurate rendition of what a showroom spec gtr can do if they only finished it less than a month ago?

 

[Greycap]

The lap was driven on September 24, the car was shown to the public in late October in the Tokyo Motor Show. OK, so much for that info. I wish I remembered where I read it from.

 

[forza2.0]

so considering the lap was claimed to be done in september time and the car is released on the 9th of december so the car in the video isnt even an accurate rendition of what a showroom spec gtr can do if they only finished it less than a month ago?

My man, you have once again come out with the goods, and yet again more evidence of nissan being misleading 👍

Show us a car manufacturer that has never lied. They all do it to look better than the competitors.

So how come you are defending/believe nissan?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

The lap was driven on September 24, the car was shown to the public in late October in the Tokyo Motor Show. OK, so much for that info. I wish I remembered where I read it from.

but you said when the car is "released",the RS6 has been shown so why is that still undergoing testing?
and as you said and as i the lap was done with a pre-production spec GTR the ONLY lap time we have for a SHOWROOM spec GTR is 7:50 therefore the GTR laps the nurburgring in 7:50 not 7:38.

 

[Greycap]

but you said when the car is "released",the RS6 has been shown so why is that still undergoing testing?
and as you said and as i the lap was done with a pre-production spec GTR the ONLY lap time we have for a SHOWROOM spec GTR is 7:50 therefore the GTR laps the nurburgring in 7:50 not 7:38.

No idea about the testing, maybe they're making a different version?

True about the lap time. I still want to see the lap in good conditions to give it an even playground with the others.

My man, you have once again come out with the goods, and yet again more evidence of nissan being misleading 👍

I'm out of here before I say something I'll regret. That attitude is disgusting. You can shovel out your "you don't believe Nissan, you're a good man" crap as much as you want to, I doubt anything could change your mind, even if it was a lap driven in 7'35 with you sitting in the car. I still have respect for Holdenhsvgtr, he gives good arguments that can be thoughtfully debated. For you I have nothing.

So how come you are defending/believe nissan?

By the same principles you believe what every Porsche fan says. Oddly enough, you left all my arguments unnoticed. Show that proof. Show that evidence. Until you do that, you're no good than the Nissan representatives you're bashing.

Trying to argue over things is pointless when the opposition acts like that. Goodbye.

 

[forza2.0]

I'm out of here before I say something I'll regret. That attitude is disgusting. You can shovel out your "you don't believe Nissan, you're a good man" crap as much as you want to

Im just rubbing it in. Im just waiting for two certain german mags to come out with their issues which I believe will hold some information which will go in my favour and hopefully put this argument to its grave for once and for all

By the same principles you believe what every Porsche fan says.

what is that then?

 

[YSSMAN]

No idea about the testing, maybe they're making a different version?

They are. There is supposed to be a 500+ BHP model called the 'EVO' that will come out later, but as far as most rumors have gone, its probably going to be Japan-only.

That means the best we'll get in Europe or North America will be the 'Spec-V,' which won't see a power increase, but there will be obvious improvements to the suspension, weight, etc...