2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[Leonidae]

On a dark, stormy night in Stuttgart, on isolated and gloomy industrial area.. AKA Porsche headquarters.

Karl: "Kurt, ze GTR iz really fazter than ze turbo! vat kan ve do now?"
Kurt: "Lets bitch und whine until ve kan come up with somezing better! Call to ze kompanys propaganda department und tell them to tell liez!"
Karl: "But zey allready are doing zat!"

*few moments of desperate walking in rings*

Kurt: "Go for bigger liez! Ve ar running out of ze options until ze 998 with 700bhp, 1200kg helium-carbonfiber konstruction komes out!"
Karl: "Jawohl! Bigger lies! hov about a claim that zee tirez weren't same as in ze production car?"
Kurt: "Eksellent idea! Go for it! Ze evolution beetle vill NOT loze to a hyped fat Datzun!"
Karl: "Oh, zat reminds me.. Who owns that GT-R in ze parking lot?"
Kurt: "err.. *shifty look, leans closer to Karl* It belongs to Ze Bozz.. He found it to be better than anything ve have came up with during last 40 yearz.. But don't spread zis."


Porsche is being desperate and childish.. instead of making a faster car ( Which is what nissan did), they bitch and moan and whine and call it all lies.. way to blow up the little credibility they had left..

 

[Jim Prower]

Awaiting Forza to come to Porsche's defense.

I mean, it's easy when you're doing the testing yourself to stack the odds in your favor. I'll take Nissan's claimed time with a grain of salt, as well, but, on most tracks, in independent journals, the GT-R has been shown to be faster by a margin than the Turbo.

Interior refinement, ride quality, Meh. For the GT-R's price/performance, I'd be willing to overlook it. If I had Turbo money, I might get a Turbo for the hell of it, but after I get enough cash for the GT-R.

 

[TheCracker]

Porsche is being desperate and childish.. instead of making a faster car ( Which is what nissan did), they bitch and moan and whine and call it all lies.. way to blow up the little credibility they had left..

Interesting. Tell me about this diminished credibility that Porsche is apparently suffering from?

I mean, it's easy when you're doing the testing yourself to stack the odds in your favor. I'll take Nissan's claimed time with a grain of salt, as well, but, on most tracks, in independent journals, the GT-R has been shown to be faster by a margin than the Turbo.

Other independent tests have the GT2 marginally quicker than the GT-R.

 

[the Interceptor]

The thing that bugs me is: I'm pretty sure Porsche wouldn't come put with this if they weren't sure it's true. On the other hand, I don't think their times are true, for the GT-R as well as the 911s.

 

[forza2.0]

Awaiting Forza to come to Porsche's defense.

I mean, it's easy when you're doing the testing yourself to stack the odds in your favor. I'll take Nissan's claimed time with a grain of salt, as well, but, on most tracks, in independent journals, the GT-R has been shown to be faster by a margin than the Turbo.

Interior refinement, ride quality, Meh. For the GT-R's price/performance, I'd be willing to overlook it. If I had Turbo money, I might get a Turbo for the hell of it, but after I get enough cash for the GT-R.

Well I have always said from day one that for the GTR's claimed specs it shouldnt/wouldnt do anywhere near Nissans claims around the 'ring, unless the car they used had "cheater" tyres and more power than nissan claim. Also horst von saurma couldnt get the GTR anywhere near nissans claimed time, and it looks like porsche like me couldnt understand how the GTR could possibly be so quick.

I knew I wasnt being biased against the GTR, my discrepancies are well founded.

Anyway, 997 mkII carrera S has lapped the 'ring in 7 mins 50 by sport auto, thats their response to the GTR so far. Still awaiting the launch of the MKII turbo and GT3. 998 development has also started. Car is wider and longer.

 

[Leonidae]

let's see.. even sport auto did better on WET Nurb than Porsche did in the dry.. I think that the porsche engineer driving the GT-R either didn't even try, or was afraid for losing his job if he'd actually drive it at 10/10. and that huge improvement on the laptime happened after parts of Nurb had been repaired, which means that there were stickier bits which helped improving the time.

 

[MustangSVT]

I think it's great advertising for Nissan. Let's assume for a moment that the Turbo does slightly beat the GT-R on the Nurb and the GT2 a bit better. What does that say about the GT-R? That you need a car that's $50k more MSRP to marginally beat it and a car that's $100,000k more to more than marginally beat it. Just like how there was that article about the Supperleggera beating the GT-R. Yea that's great, but it's also like 3 times the price. I think it's great for Nissan that their car is being compared to cars that are much more expensive and are of a big name like Porsche 911 Turbo or GT2 which are top of the line models really.

 

[Leonidae]

For starters, there have been tests independent of Nissan as well as Porsche, done by SportAuto's (German car mag) Horst von Saurma, who knows the 'ring pretty well. If you were to expect a bias from him, it obviously would be towards German cars.

At the end of 2007 on a cold and partially wet Nordschleife, he did a 7:50 on the Ring in a GT-R, which is 4 seconds quicker than what Porsche claims for a dry track. On said dry track in the summer of 2007, he lapped the current 911 Turbo in 7:54, which is 16 seconds slower than what Porsche claims. Notice something here?

 

[the Interceptor]

I think I've read that before somewhere.

 

[Leonidae]

I bet you have it was so well written that I couldn't resist the urge to "borrow" it.

 

[Stotty]

Whether it's whining from Porsche or not, the motoring press is finally starting to smell Nissan's bull**** ...

Evo had an article in it this month in which a privately owned Zonda F Clubsport (640bhp, 1,230kg) driven by a professional 'Ring Miester, on it's standard fit tyres and under controlled conditions ran a lap of 7'24. So there's absolutely no way the GTR with only 473bhp and weighing a collosal 1,760kg could do a 7'29 unless it 1) had more power than standard/claimed or 2) it was on 'special' tyres (or of course, both).

Steve Sutcliffe has just posted on the Autocar web site that the Nissan supplied GTR they just had for a test on the Isle of Man was suspiciously fast in a straight line considering it's weight and claimed power, and that they will be looking forward to sticking the first official UK GTR on a rolling Road as soon as they get one.

 

[Tornado]

1) had more power than standard/claimed

Despite Nissan essentially pleading with magazines to not say so, American publications have been noting that the U.S. spec cars they are testing have notably more than "473."

 

[Stotty]

What I don't understand is... if it does have 550bhp (or more) why not say so?

And even if it had 600bhp, there still no way it would run a 7.29 wround the 'Ring on standard tyres. Looks like BS, smells like BS, is BS.

 

[the Interceptor]

Evo had an article in it this month in which a privately owned Zonda F Clubsport (640bhp, 1,230kg) driven by a professional 'Ring Miester, on it's standard fit tyres and under controlled conditions ran a lap of 7'24. So there's absolutely no way the GTR with only 473bhp and weighing a collosal 1,760kg could do a 7'29 unless it 1) had more power than standard/claimed or 2) it was on 'special' tyres (or of course, both).

Remember the GT-R has has very sophisticated, computer-controlled AWD-System that generates more grip than any mechanical system can. This system works wonders works on corner exits, as it enables the car to leave a bend at a much higher speed than a purely-mechanic car with the same stats would. Therefore, the GT-R archieves faster lap times than the simple figures suggest, as to be seen in many reviews.

 

[Joey D]

Remember the GT-R has has very sophisticated, computer-controlled AWD-System that generates more grip than any mechanical system can. This system works wonders works on corner exits enables the car to leave a bend at a much higher speed than a purely-mechanic car with the same stats would. Therefore, the GT-R archieves faster lap times than the simple figures suggest, as to be seen in many reviews.

Right, but is that really going to defy physics? Something with x mass and x power out put can only do so much. I have no doubt the GT-R is a fast car with excellent handling, but I agree something isn't exactly right here. I'm guessing the car had more power in it, which is fine. Car's have been underrated for years.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Steve Sutcliffe has just posted on the Autocar web site that the Nissan supplied GTR they just had for a test on the Isle of Man was suspiciously fast in a straight line considering it's weight and claimed power, and that they will be looking forward to sticking the first official UK GTR on a rolling Road as soon as they get one.

Apparently that car needs new turbos every 1000miles.

 

[Tornado]

What I don't understand is... if it does have 550bhp (or more) why not say so?

Many reasons. All of them hard to explain.

 

[the Interceptor]

Right, but is that really going to defy physics? Something with x mass and x power out put can only do so much.

True, but which car with around 500 hp is able to put all the power and grip it potentially has down perfectly every single inch? Only if you have the required mechanics and then put in a system that squeezes out everything those mechanics can archieve in every moment, you will get optimal results. Those results will obviously surpass the figures one would expect from such a car, solely judging the technical stats.

 

[Joey D]

True, but which car with around 500 hp is able to put all the power and grip it potentially has down perfectly every single inch? Only if you have the required mechanics and then put in a system that squeezes out everything those mechanics can archieve in every moment, you will get optimal results. Those results will obviously surpass the figures one would expect from such a car, solely judging the technical stats.

Think of the cost of the GT-R though, it's very cheap all things considered (if you neglect dealer mark-ups). If Nissan has the technology to squeeze every ounce out of the car and still keep it inexpensive and reliable as a daily, then why wouldn't they put it into every car they sold? Why wouldn't they patent it and they sell it to the automotive world and make a killing off of it? It's hard for me to believe that something at such a performance bargain is capable of so much with so much technology crammed into it. Either the car is immensely unreliable or it there is more to the story. Remember if it's to good to be true, it probably is.

 

[Greycap]

Right, but is that really going to defy physics? Something with x mass and x power out put can only do so much.

That "so much" is just where the ATTESA really shines though, the orthodox AWD systems can't get the power down as well in every situation. Sure, if the limit is "x" there's nothing that can go over it. But I wouldn't count out the possibility of the electronics pulling 0.95x while the "iron differential" AWD's can only do 0.9x (both figures right out of my head but the point is illustrated) , and RWD even less. The WRC cars of today with their 300 bhp and 1200 kg murder the stage times of the Group B's that had 600 bhp and 900 kg. They're a perfect example of power fully used and I still think the GT-R is doing the same. It doesn't bend the limits, it just gets closer to them than the others.

Think of the cost of the GT-R though, it's very cheap all things considered (if you neglect dealer mark-ups). If Nissan has the technology to squeeze every ounce out of the car and still keep it inexpensive and reliable as a daily, then why wouldn't they put it into every car they sold?

Quite likely because they can't afford to sell their entire range with prices that are lower than the cost of making the cars...

 

[Tornado]

Nissan is selling the car for a loss, you know.

 

[Joey D]

Nissan is selling the car for a loss, you know.

Then Nissan, like VW with the Veyron, fails at business. If you have enough people that want the car why not use basic marketing principals and make money off of it?

 

[Tornado]

Razors and blades, man.

 

[Leonidae]

it's all just sour grapes. there's enough independent magazine tests out there where GT-R regularly beats GT3 and Turbo, occasionally almost matches GT2. Didn't Porsche and BMW start whining back in the 90's as well when their cars couldn't match R32 on tracks? indeed they did.. this all is just history repeating itself.

and about zonda/GT2/Turbo runs.. they were made before parts of the Nurb were repaired. GT-R's 7'29 run was done after it.. and if Walter Röhrl had driven the GT-R instead of some pansy engineer who was afraid for losing his job if the GT-R had been faster, results would had been different.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Then Nissan, like VW with the Veyron, fails at business. If you have enough people that want the car why not use basic marketing principals and make money off of it?

Then we wouldn't be talking about how it beats cars that cost 2-3 times more. [cost being the price consumers pay w/o mark-up]

 

[the Interceptor]

Then Nissan, like VW with the Veyron, fails at business. If you have enough people that want the car why not use basic marketing principals and make money off of it?

Given how much attention the Veyron as well as the GT-R have stirred, you can hardly say they failed at business. It's just another form than the good old one "sell X for Y to get Z".

 

[Joey D]

Then we wouldn't be talking about how it beats cars that cost 2-3 times more. [cost being the price consumers pay w/o mark-up]

Touche.

Given how much attention the Veyron as well as the GT-R have stirred, you can hardly say they failed at business. It's just another form than the good old one "sell X for Y to get Z".

Just because Nissan has a fast car doesn't make me want to run to a Nissan dealer and buy a Maxima, just as the Veyron doesn't make me want to buy a Jetta. I think it's poor business practice, especially when Nissan and VW could sell their respective cars at a gain.

 

[the Interceptor]

Just because Nissan has a fast car doesn't make me want to run to a Nissan dealer and buy a Maxima, just as the Veyron doesn't make me want to buy a Jetta. I think it's poor business practice, especially when Nissan and VW could sell their respective cars at a gain.

You and me might find it a dumb idea, but if it suits them and does what they want, they're perfectly well entitled to do so. I wouldn't buy any Nissan or VW because there are the GT-R or the Veyron either. I would buy a GT-R though.

Besides, almost every car is not sold according to what it costs in production, rather than what the manufacturer thinks where it should sit in the market.

 

[gator of kana]

I found that more people had been attracted to Nissan because of the R35 GT-R. I'm thinking that not only is the GT-R a supercar but it's also Nissan's halo car

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm certainly seeing lots of Micras on the road, maybe that's the GT-R effect?... Oh no, hang on, that's because they build them nearby