2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[YSSMAN]

Nismo is in similar status as AMG, Quattro Gmbh, M-sport etc etc.

Quite right, but they're also kinda "separate" aren't they? I mean, they aren't a direct spin-off like Toyota's TRD or Ford's SVT programs, unless I'm completely mistaken (I'm trying to remember from the Best Motoring DVDs).

I've always thought of NISMO as a "separate, but included" arm like AMG or Alpina.

 

[Tornado]

Not the same. Ruf doesn't build their cars from Porsches that already left the factory in final form. They build their cars using unmarked Porsche chassis', something Nismo couldn't have done with Z-Tunes due to the GT-Rs already having a VIN.

Do we know whether or not Nismo replaced the VIN? Because otherwise this discussion is pretty irrelevant as Nismo did just as much work on the Z-Tune as RUF does with any of their cars.

 

[///M-Spec]

A Z-Tune is nothing more than a modified Nissan GT-R R34 that has already been produced, and is nothing more than a modified production car. I don't consider modified cars production cars in the same sense as a car that comes straight off Nissan, Ferrari, or Chevrolet's assembly line,

I don't think it's fair to call it "modified". If I swap my air filter for a K&N, my car is "modified" and the changes done to a Z-tune is way more comprehensive. Nismo isn't exactly a few guys with tattoos and goatees running a little indy shop in some backalley in a crappy neighborhood.

I think even calling it "tuned" would be a disservice, though "production" would be inaccurate. "Rebuilt" or "remanufactured" would be more appropriate.

Keep in mind the car had factory support; thus the quality of the design, engineering, parts and assembly would be in line with cars coming out of a factory. In fact, because they're practically hand-built by a motivated, top quality team, I suspect the quality would be even higher.

Brad points towards what Saleen has done with the Mustang...

Dude. Are you referring to yourself in the third-person?? Who are you, The Jimmy?


M

 

[Tornado]

Bob Dole?

 

[Jay]

Do we know whether or not Nismo replaced the VIN? Because otherwise this discussion is pretty irrelevant as Nismo did just as much work on the Z-Tune as RUF does with any of their cars.

Yes the Z tunes do have new VIN's.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Nismo is in similar status as AMG, Quattro Gmbh, M-sport etc etc.

Quite right, but they're also kinda "separate" aren't they? I mean, they aren't a direct spin-off like Toyota's TRD or Ford's SVT programs, unless I'm completely mistaken (I'm trying to remember from the Best Motoring DVDs).

I've always thought of NISMO as a "separate, but included" arm like AMG or Alpina.

That's what I thought, that while NISMO is Nissan's official tuner, they're not actually Nissan, like HSV is Holden, or SRT is Dodge/Chrysler. I guess it's as good as, and why we're debating whether or not they're productions cars or not is rather beyond me. If they can reliably make a car faster, then the car is clearly capable of it and they took the initiative to do that.

 

[niky]

As a clarification, again: Production merely means built in numbers and identical. The production line means that there are workers who are dedicated to building them... not whether they are on a line or belt per se (otherwise, many supercars would not qualify).

It could be argued either way. It's just that to qualify the fact that "other manufacturers won't care" and pointing to the Z-Tune just isn't a solid case. If Nissan chooses to consider it a production car, it is. It was built in numbers of identical lots and sold to the general public.

The fact that one of the raw materials was an entire car instead of a couple hundred kilograms of raw steel, rubber and etcetera doesn't change that fact. Thus, it was manufactured, technically, even though it was, in reality, remanufactured.

Of course, that interpretation opens to question whether "tuner cars" can be considered "production" if more than one kit is produced... but most tuners don't bother to sell the entire vehicle, they merely sell the kit as screwed onto the car. One notable exception is the JohnCooperWorks version of the Cooper S, in which the kit is a dealer option that's sold at the dealership with a manufacturer warranty... although what the registration papers say, I don't personally know. While RUF is a manufacturer in their own right, they can and will rebuild a standard customer-owned Porsche from the ground up to one of their production specs.

The vague definition of "production car" is often used by the big manufacturers as a shield to protect themselves in terms of bragging rights from those persnickety upstarts who just happen to make sportscars that are, unfortunately, much, much faster than any Porsche, Ferrari or Nissan... like the Radical or the Donkervoort... both of which hold track records that manufacturers and publications conveniently ignore everytime some new "production car" sets a new Nurb record...

 

[Jay]

That's what I thought, that while NISMO is Nissan's official tuner, they're not actually Nissan, like HSV is Holden, or SRT is Dodge/Chrysler.

No,

Nismo is Nissan motorsport and perfomance division, it is a part of, founded and owned by Nissan, the cars are sold at Nissan dealerships with full Nissan warrenties.

 

[Joey D]

Nismo is Nissan motorsport and perfomance division, it is a part of, founded and owned by Nissan, the cars are sold at Nissan dealerships with full Nissan warrenties.

Same thing can be said for SRT models with Dodge and Chrysler as well.

 

[Jay]

Same thing can be said for SRT models with Dodge and Chrysler as well.

Yes, who said any different?

 

[Joey D]

yes, who said any different?

n4hs

that's what i thought, that while nismo is nissan's official tuner, they're not actually nissan, like hsv is holden, or srt is dodge/chrysler.

 

[Jay]

n4hs

I think he means Nismo/Nissan is not like HSV is to Holden and SRT is to Chyrsler. Though I'm not sure.


Anyway Holden has never completely owned HSV and still don't.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

No,

Nismo is Nissan motorsport and perfomance division, it is a part of, founded and owned by Nissan, the cars are sold at Nissan dealerships with full Nissan warrenties.

Thanks for the clarification.

Same thing can be said for SRT models with Dodge and Chrysler as well.

I think he means Nismo/Nissan is not like HSV is to Holden and SRT is to Chyrsler. Though I'm not sure.


Anyway Holden has never completely owned HSV and still don't.

That is what I meant, but now I know NISMO's place in the world. HSV and Holden are one in the same, it's like saying that the engineering team don't own the interior design team. They're designing the same car!

 

[Jay]

HSV and Holden are one in the same, it's like saying that the engineering team don't own the interior design team. They're designing the same car!

Maybe so, but they don't fully own HSV whatever the case which means they don't have full control.

 

[slidesquad#1]

HSV and Holden are one in the same, it's like saying that the engineering team don't own the interior design team. They're designing the same car!

Really? Do HSV actually play a part in what Holden do? And doesn't Tom Walkinshaw own a considerable chunk of HSV?
I was always under the impression that HSV got to play around with the Holden's after they were finalised (probably before they were released to the public), and change what they needed to etc., rather that having a say in what Holden do. Could be wrong though.

I would think that Nismo is more tightly controlled by Nissan (similar to Subaru/STI, and, I believe Ford/FPV perhaps?) that HSV is by Holden.

 

[Jay]

I would think that Nismo is more tightly controlled by Nissan (similar to Subaru/STI, and, I believe Ford/FPV perhaps?) that HSV is by Holden.

Yes, which is why I thought HSV was not a good example for his point.

 

[Tornado]

Yes the Z tunes do have new VIN's.

Then the argument is moot because they are legally brand new cars. Just like the RUFs.

 

[YSSMAN]

Maybe so, but they don't fully own HSV whatever the case which means they don't have full control.

Which is the same case for AMG (technically) and other quasi-subsidiaries like Saleen and SLP. Every automaker usually has an in-house thing, but its always a bit odd when you end up doing the research and its a very different thing.

 

[Tornado]

Actually, I think AMG is now fully owned by Mercedes.
I'd say that there is three levels of tuner:

First Party: Fully owned subsidiaries of the manufacturer in question (Nismo, TRD, SVT, SRT, AMG, M, F, other assortments of letters).
Second Party: Companies that help create new cars and/or get full manufacturer backing for their own models without outside manufacturer ownership (SLP, Saleen, Shelby, Alpina, I guess Lotus in some cases, various design companies).
Third Party: The stuff that voids your factory warranty (RennTech, Brabus, Edo, Kleeman, etc.).

 

[JohnBM01]

I must comment a bit...

I don't really like thinking of this GT-R as part of the "PlayStation Generation." While it's true that the Gran Turismo series has popularized the GT-R, I don't want to think of this as the car video gamers have come to love. The GT-R had long been popular in Japan in a variety of media including Initial D (I think it was the Night Kids gang where one of them raced the R32 Skyline). This is new to most of us because of the popularity of Gran Turismo and this car. I just hate thinking of this car as the car fueling the PlayStation Generation. The GT-R is almost part of the same unwritten rule that unfortunately impacts any Honda- always hate the GT-R. I'm not much of a Nissan guy myself (though I consider the Datsun 240Z as one of my all-time favorite sports cars). I think the GT-R is an excellent car for as much as I know about it. I do somewhat agree with this car having no real soul. However, I'm buying the performance of this car in handling and power. I always call the Corvette the in-between muscle car. Well, the GT-R is the in-between supercar.

My issue is that I don't like this car being associated with the PlayStation crowd. Almost like saying only PlayStation gamers as well as undeground fans of Japanese auto culture care about this car. It's not a "fanboy" car to me. It's the best offering Nissan has to offer for fans of performance cars in their current lineup. The R8 is the best offering currently from Audi. The Viper is the best offer from Dodge. And for Nissan, it's the GT-R. It's okay to think of the GT-R as a car made popular from video games and the tuner culture, but let's not cheapen its value and its worth and what you're getting for the money. I sound like I'm giving the car too much credit. I'm just trying not to sound like an absolute hater.

Having said all of this (and having noted that I'm not really a Nissan guy or a GT-R guy), it's still a fairly amazing car even if not really respectfully regarded by most people. I still think the GT-R is a wonderful machine for what it is. I'm not trying to overrate it or anything.

 

[Jay]

Which is the same case for AMG (technically)

I had thought Mercedes-Benz now completely owns AMG, like Toronado said.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

I was doing a longer post quoting some others, but accidentally closed GTP and couldn't be bothered re-typing, so here's the gold in my post.
Definition of HSV
Of note: Officially designated performance division of Holden. Created as joint venture between Holden and Tom Walkinshaw Racing.

It's like the difference between customer service and management. Obviously customer service has little to no control on management, but they're the same company.

 

[Jay]

I was doing a longer post quoting some others, but accidentally closed GTP and couldn't be bothered re-typing, so here's the gold in my post.
Definition of HSV
Of note: Officially designated performance division of Holden. Created as joint venture between Holden and Tom Walkinshaw Racing.

Exactly,TWR was never a Division of GM (as well as current joint owners), which means HSV is not 100% Holden owned anyway you look at it.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Exactly,TWR was never a Division of GM (as well as current joint owners), which means HSV is not 100% Holden owned anyway you look at it.

It's joint owned, which means Holden gets their say in everything they do.

 

[Jay]

It's joint owned, which means Holden gets their say in everything they do.

Yes of course.

 

[slidesquad#1]

It's joint owned, which means Holden gets their say in everything they do.

Whereas Nismo only do what Nissan says to do....

 

[YSSMAN]

Where Did That Dead Horse Go?

Car and Driver did as they promised, and have gathered the performance figures of five GT-Rs, two of which they have placed on the dyno. You can read Larry Webster's full report here, but I'll lay out the details and include the dyno sheet.

GT-R #1:
* 0-60 in 3.3 seconds
* 11.5 second quarter mile

GT-R #2:
* 0-60 in 3.9 seconds

GT-R #3:
* 0-60 in 4.4 seconds

GT-R #4 & 5:
* "similar to GT-R #1"

On MotorCity Speed’s Mustang dyno in Commerce Township, Michigan, GT-R No. 4 produced a peak of 415 horsepower at the wheels. Based on our 20-percent loss estimate, the engine output was 519, or 39 horsepower more than Nissan’s stated 480.

So what’s up? We called Nissan, and the company says the first four cars we tested were early-build versions that received regular engine-computer software updates, which may account for the varied results we recorded. We then wondered which engine-computer calibration was the one real-world GT-R buyers would receive.

Three weeks later, a fifth GT-R arrived. This one, allegedly, was a production version with the latest—and final—engine calibration. We took it both to the test track and MotorCity’s dyno.

This car performed nearly identically to the fourth car. It smoked the quarter-mile in 11.6 seconds at 120 mph and produced 420 wheel horsepower. We also measured the turbo boost pressure in both cars, and the curves were basically identical.

Though we didn’t get a chance to dyno-test the two slower GT-Rs, three of the five were so close in performance that we believe they accurately represent the GT-R’s capability. Clearly, Nissan is delivering more than the advertised 480 horsepower. And the most likely figure is about 520, which is yet another reason to bow to the best performance value since the Corvette Z06.

Presumably not the final word in this argument...

 

[Joey D]

3.3 seconds? Car and Drive always made me scratch my head with their 0-60 figures for all cars they test. I mean Caterham's do it only slightly less then that and the Atom's about 3.0 seconds right? 3.9 sounds about right though.

 

[YSSMAN]

They optimize their tests by doing it repeatedly with different methods but they never do a no-lift-shift. The big key is that they weather-correct their test results to gain what they believe would be optimal, and otherwise real world times with proper conditions. As I recall, Edmunds and Motor Trend were getting similar figures, all of them using the launch control program to get that. Otherwise, it seems like its 4.0 seconds that was the standard everywhere else...

 

[Tornado]

Presumably not the final word in this argument...

Especially as I'm sure Nissan will write C&D another nasty letter for doing this again.