2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

  • Thread starter emad
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Scaff - understood đź‘Ť I was just responding to criticism towards Porsche that I considered unfair, and Nissan's cheek, in which does appear to be a playground scuffle between kids rather than two respected car companies.

niky
As far as I know, the Ducati's power curve and balance are radically different from Rossi's Yamaha... (the desmodronic's extra punch is what got Stoner last year's championship, if I remember right... I kind of tuned out halfway when it was obvious Rossi had a crap bike and didn't have a chance)... but of course, comparing Rossi to your common test driver is like comparing Da Vinci to Matt Groening (so, it's a reach... I couldn't think of anything)... there's a world of difference there...
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The Yamaha Rossi moved onto from the Honda was also a significant change. The leap from 500cc 2-strokes to 990cc 4-strokes was even more massive. I very much doubt Rossi would need much instruction should he ever defect to Ducati. World-class talent (Rossi, Schumacher, Loeb, Muller etc) in the top classes of motorsport is world class regardless of the machine they're using.

My comparison also wasn't Rossi to a test driver, but more, Rossi/Stoner compared to an experienced Porsche chassis engineer/Toshio Suzuki - drivers (and riders) on a similar level in a similar job đź‘Ť
 
Depends on how much motorsport the engineers both do... if Suzuki does motorsports on other platforms, he may be more flexible. Of course, the thousand of miles he has under his belt on the platform may count for a lot.

But Rossi? My Lord, that guy could pilot a buttered potato to a reasonably quick lap time, anywhere... that man has nano-technology tire-grip sensors built into his derriere. :D

@Greycap: also note that owner testimony (where you can find it) places the owner-bought-and-driven GTR (no cheater tires or special press unit here) as being faster than the same owner's 911 Turbo (there's one out there with telemetry data from the owner, too... comparing the GTR to his personal modified 700 hp 911 Turbo) or GT3. The GT2, so far, is either a tie or a win for the GT2, depending on the track and the drivers involved.

And that's the thing... with so many tests involving both press units and non-press units (some UK tests involve privately-owned imports and not official press units as the big US mags get) showing a win for the GTR over the Turbo, Porsche's claim comes off as being more than a little bit silly.
 
homeforsummer
What really needed to happen from the start was for both manufacturers to take an example of their car to the 'Ring, under scrutiny from an independant adjudicator, and with an independant driver, to test both cars under exactly the same conditions.
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Porsche and Nissan both agree to submit for testing to an independent body that will conduct and supervise the test. The independent body can be a motorsport organization, such as the FIA, a technical organization, such as DIN (German Institute for Standardization), a media company, such as SpeedTV or perhaps even a financial underwriting company. Or even a combination of all of the above.

Both Porsche and Nissan then submits a build sheet for a predetermined month when a test will be run. The build sheet will contain the VIN numbers of all the cars scheduled to come off the line each week in that month. Nissan and Porsche will both have the opportunity to cull cars from the list that do not have the optimal options (Dunlops for the Nissan, PASM/Comp brakes/SportChrono for the Porsche) Customer cars will be removed from the list, leaving only cars allotted for dealerships. One extra dealership car will be then be built to fill in blank.

On an random week, a random VIN number is then drawn for a GT-R and a Turbo. The cars are taken directly from the factory, prepped for delivery and removed from the manufacturer's shipping locations by the independent sanctioning body.

They are then shipped to Germany under 24 hour armed escort by the sanctioning body.

On test day, a driver and an engineer from Porsche and Nissan arrive at the Nordschlife. The engineers are given time to check the car for any irregularities or problems. They are not allowed any tools or parts beyond simple hand tools and a scanner (code reader). Software updates are strictly forbidden and the engineers are watched and scrutinized like the boyfriend of a US Marine's daughter on prom-night.

Once the engineers give the okay, the track is cleared, the cars are fueled up and off they go. They can run the cars as long as they wish.

The fastest car takes the glory. The losers can go home and cry themselves to sleep at night.

Sounds like good, clean fun. I would pay good money to see this. Pay-per-view event, anyone?

Prosthetic
For what reason? The Cayman and GT-R don't compete in anyway. Price nor performance.
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Because the Cayman is deliberately held down by Porsche. Even Porsche acknowledges this. Given the same power levels and go-faster parts you would find in a GT2 or GT3 (such as an LSD for example), the Cayman would be faster, because it is the superior platform.


M
 
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Scaff
While I agree with the first part (well I would I wrote the original part), the Z065 has just the same potential for abuse.

Dialing in revs to the limiter and then dropping the clutch is hardly rocket science and certainly not hidden, but do that a few time to many on the drag-strip and it will break something and it won't be covered under warranty.
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I would think that by dumping the clutch, the driver KNOWS that he or she is putting lots of pressure on the drivetrain. Simply pushing a button in the car, not so much. I agree that if a car is ABUSED, warranty should be voided. But if a GTR owner only uses Launch Control occasionally, it sounds like even those people will have voided warranties. Only time will tell.
 
Come to think of it, if one engages the brain before engaging the launch control some bells should ring. Isn't it quite self-explanatory that if the launch control gives the highest possible acceleration it also gives the highest possible strain, just like it goes with every car? Then again many people can't be bothered to think of physics as the car is little more than a new toy for them but in that case they shouldn't complain either.
 
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M-Spec, that idea re: random VIN's is a great idea. No one off randomness, and it would force the companies to have a set standard for cars rolling off the line. No lazy Friday's where the motor has mysteriously lost 30hp to a car built the day before and the panel gaps are a bit bigger than normal.

Niky - The clutch problem was with the first batch of BA F6 Typhoons. They run a twin-plate clutch as standard and those first batches couldn't handle the torque load (550Nm) of the motor and consequently, the one in that test fried. They fixed it straight away and since then, there hasn't been many complaints about the driveline and most of the HWP cars in Sydney are Typhoon's now to combat the street racers. :mischievous: When they get the new FG model's they'll go from 270Kw/550Nm to 310Kw/565Nm. :eek:

Back to GT-R's. That 7'29 video that Nissan have put up to tell Porsche to shut up about the cheating claims is AMAZING!! Nissan are telling Porsche's drivers to drive faster....I don't think you could've gone any faster if you tried in that run, he was almost jumping into corners like Karousel and such, almost kamikaze style.
 
Leave Nissan alone Porsche, go back to making your 911s and leave the GT-R be. All this critisism is killing the legend title. I won't stand for this. Let me be your lawyer Nissan
 
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RE: Typhoon clutches... glad to know that... it's an interesting car.

gator of kana
Leave Nissan alone Porsche, go back to making your 911s and leave the GT-R be. All this critisism is killing the legend title. I won't stand for this. Let me be your lawyer Nissan
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That would be a disaster. :lol:
 
This is hilarious. Read the last paragraph!

NissanÂ’s European spokesman Neil Reeve said in Paris that they were at a loss to explain why Porsche couldnÂ’t replicate NissanÂ’s own lap time.

He said that Nissan was ‘flattered’ that Porsche had bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany, but reaffirmed that the GT-R has beaten the 911 Turbo in a number of independent tests.

And Nissan has also released a photo of the actual tyres used for the test, plus a second Nurburgring video as evidence of its claims. Even better, Nissan has offered free training for the Porsche test drivers if they want to attempt another lap in the GT-R.
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:lol:
 
Perhaps Porsche and Nissan should meet one day at the 'Ring and settle it once and for all, in view of each other, and each company can check over the others' car. đź’ˇ
 
This the greatest toy I've ever seen. A GT-R that is a transformer now how cool is that?

red_gtr_transformer.jpg


cce6905e573578305b2fe263b97ecd3b.jpg


silver_gtr_transformer.jpg


silver_gtr_transformed_2.jpg
 
buickgnx88
Perhaps Porsche and Nissan should meet one day at the 'Ring and settle it once and for all, in view of each other, and each company can check over the others' car. đź’ˇ
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Indeed they should and the fact that this proposition hasn't been made suggests one, if not both of the companies are taking measures beyond "fair" testing.

Personally, I think the ball is in Nissan's court. They made the claims that no one has supported in testing and now they are doing it again (according to a reply above). If the new testing from Nissan does a good job of proving the point then I'll be quite happy.

However, with that said... I have my doubts.
Partly because no one has supported Nissan's claims but more so because I've seen what can be done to a stock car once fine print accompanies the subject. That is to say, examples like Best Motoring's tests where "stock" cars are used but one car got a few new "sports" parts because of the heat outside (or whatever other reasons provided).
More on that same side of the coin would be Nissan's insistence on the "stock" GTR's time only to back peddle and say "we used optional tires."
 
Except this one can only take 5 hard transformations before he breaks.
 
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Kent
Indeed they should and the fact that this proposition hasn't been made suggests one, if not both of the companies are taking measures beyond "fair" testing.

Personally, I think the ball is in Nissan's court. They made the claims that no one has supported in testing and now they are doing it again (according to a reply above). If the new testing from Nissan does a good job of proving the point then I'll be quite happy.

However, with that said... I have my doubts.
Partly because no one has supported Nissan's claims but more so because I've seen what can be done to a stock car once fine print accompanies the subject. That is to say, examples like Best Motoring's tests where "stock" cars are used but one car got a few new "sports" parts because of the heat outside (or whatever other reasons provided).
More on that same side of the coin would be Nissan's insistence on the "stock" GTR's time only to back peddle and say "we used optional tires."
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Not optional... remember, Kent... the faster Dunlops are stock. It's the slower Bridgestones on premium models that are "optional"... but still dealership available.

And Nissan's not the only one.

No independent source has been able to replicate the mid-7:30s time of the 911 Turbo, either. Remember, Horst von Saurma only did 7:54 in the turbo.... on a super-test that's patently a balls-out track-attack.

The 911 GT2 did 7:32 twice... both times in Porsche's hands. Nobody has replicated that either.

The whole point is... Porsche is crying "wolf" when the same accusations of malfeasance can be laid against them.

I'd be satisfied if someone got within 5 seconds of Nissan's claimed time. The fact that it's only 3 seconds faster than the GT2's claimed time doesn't really mean much except that Nissan perhaps got lucky in terms of conditions and Porsche didn't.

Simply, given evidence done on tracks other than the Nurburgring, with both press and non-press units (privately owned GTRs have been shown to be faster than the 911 Turbo and slightly slower than the GT2), I'm satisfied the car can walk the walk and talk the talk.
 
"People buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis because cars like this effervesce. They fizz and crackle and theyÂ’re as much about style and panache as they are about generating G in the bends. A 911, on the other hand, is not about style at all. ItÂ’s fishing, with a steering wheel.

When you buy a normal car, you choose the model, choose the engine size youÂ’d like and then add as many extras as you think you can afford. Then a few you canÂ’t.

It is not so simple with a 911. The range is mind boggling. It starts with the simple Carrera, which has no frills, no spoiler on which the RAF could land a jet, no wide wheelarch-es, no turbocharging. You get a simple 3.6 litre, flat six that drives the rear wheels. This, then, is the starting point. My little pony.

If you go for the 3.8 litre S model, it is the best of the 911s. It offers all of the designÂ’s best features with none of the drawbacks, at a reasonable price. But sadly, once youÂ’ve stuck your toe into the world of the 911, pretty soon you are going to be as hooked as a golfer; believing that if you spend more and more on better equipment, your game will improve.

Pretty soon, then, youÂ’re going to be back at the dealership wondering out loud if perhaps you could take the roundabout outside TGI Fridays a little bit faster if you had four-wheel drive. (You canÂ’t.)

Then youÂ’ll start to wonder about the GT3, which is like the simple Carrera S but with scaffolding in the back and a thin back window. Around a track, this is an incredible car. YouÂ’ll like that. YouÂ’ll start doing track days. And there youÂ’ll be overtaken by people in turbos, so youÂ’ll think that maybe you should have one of those. Pretty soon, youÂ’ll be subscribing to the 911 magazine for enthusiasts. And then all youÂ’ll be able to do, day in and day out, is dream of the day when you can have a GT2. The ÂŁ131,070 GT2 is Everest. It has the engine from the turbo but with more power and only two-wheel drive. It has scaffolding in the back. It is light. It is, to Mr Porsche-Man, what the very best woods are to the world of pro-am golf."

It's funny cause it's true.

And when you make it to Porsche Everest, you'll still be struggling to keep pace with a Nissan. Is that what all this fuss is about?:lol:
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GT-R and 911 in same class.. NOT

:D
 
Or a Corvette.

Badum-tish.

But, as you all know, I'm "in the tank" for the Corvette - 911 ticket anyway...
 
Id take 2 TVR's for the price of the GTR. Id rather impress people with my own driving skills on the racetrack, than the skills of the GTR's computers.
 
The computers don't eliminate the need for personal driving skill if you plan on pushing the GTR to the limit. Not that I don't see the appeal in a car with no driving aids, I'm a huge TVR fan as anyone on here knows, but and I'm not suggesting you have said this, it is merely a line of though that could come from what you said by you, me or anyone else reading. To suggest that a GTR doesn't require a high level of driver skill to navigate around a circuit at the limit is as wrong as any suggestion that no driver aids always equalys better. I love the idea of being the only influence like in a TVR, but not driving around day to day especially here in Manchester. A car like that would be a second or third car only and at some point I hope it is. A car like the GTR however could be your only car and still offer high speed excitment at the track. You might be able to drive faster with less skill thanks to the electronic trickery, but to drive to the limit the skill has to be there.
 
Of course, that's been said a million times, but it doesn't change the perception people have of the car.

GT-Rs have always been twitchy monsters... un-natural to drive at the limit, needing a re-write of your instincts to pilot correctly, because they don't do exactly what everything else does when you expect them to. The only "too easy" complaint you can level against the GT-R is the seven speed box... as that item actually does make it easier to drive.

Everything else? I've driven cars with active differentials (the X6) which are supposed to make a car turn faster, and the X6's active anti-rollbars also stiffen it up for corners. In fact, the X6's active differentials may be more sophisticated, as they actually trim the car's attitude under braking into a corner for less understeer. But such technologies don't make it rubbish to drive... and you still need to know how to hit the racing line, feel out the grip of your tires and when to apply brakes and/or throttle. And no technology applied to differentials can keep you from going off track once you've exceeded useable grip. It's the job of the driver to set-up the car into a turn so that once he's lost grip, it's pointing the way he wants it to point and going in the general direction he wants it to go.

Put a GT-R in the hands of a total idiot, and it'll still understeer like a pig into the nearest bush.
 
^believe me, plenty of R35's have already been crashed even in the US. In addition, even though the Tokyo Concept of the GT-R has 7 gears in GT4, IRL the production model has only 6.
 
My mistake, i keep mixing them up... :P

Still, the gearbox is a factor in the car's amazing performance, and it's likely the GT-R might be slower on the Ring with a manual transmission.
 

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