2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil

[Famine]

The difference is though that the green flag should not have been waved in Monaco

Which the drivers have no way of knowing...

To say that the circuit lights (controlled by race control) and their dash lights (controlled by race control) are superceded by a single marshal waving a flag which may be erroneous is to invite accidents and controversy.

Neatly, that seems to be exactly the case.

What was the yellow even for, I can't remember?

Probably clearing away from the crash he caused 2 laps previously without investigation

As for the ""Under the FIA's rules for the Brazilian GP" line I think that's just how it was written, I don't think they are insinuating there were any special rules for the race.

With the way the FIA behave with regards to the rulebook, who knows? It certainly seems to imply that there were a specific set of rules for this race. I'm sure the drivers (except Kimi) were aware of what they were after the drivers' briefing on Thursday.

But in all of this, with this particular incident, Vettel did not break any rules or do anything un-sporting or wrong generally outside of the rules.

So, all of this fuss is over completely nothing.

That's never been what the fuss is about except for those who wish to portray it as a fan-of-driver-A vs. fan-of-driver-B argument.

The fuss has always been about the poor, opaque and inconsistent stewarding. It's this that changes the outcomes of races more often than drivers cheating.

 

[Ardius]

Had this been Vergne overtaking Ricciardo, nothing would be said. So yes, it quite clearly is a fuss kicked up because it is Vettel and because there is a championship on the line and because people are more willing to pick apart races trying to find something he did wrong and nail him for it.

This of course is not unique to Vettel, but any championship contender. But quite clearly this didn't get brought up because of inconsistent stewarding. Thats just a reason for confusion and question - but not why its brought up in the first place.

 

[Samus]

Which the drivers have no way of knowing...

Yes that is true but they should have known about the rule for how a race ends behind a safety car.

To say that the circuit lights (controlled by race control) and their dash lights (controlled by race control) are superceded by a single marshal waving a flag which may be erroneous is to invite accidents and controversy.

Neatly, that seems to be exactly the case.

I see what you're saying but remember the flags came first so to speak, they are supposed to serve the same purpose as the boards, the electronic boards are just meant to be clearer and of course electronically controlled, not manual. If the flags held no power so to speak they would be worthless and the whole track controlled by the boards. That isn't the case.

Remember the green flag didn't supersede the yellow flag, it was just waved before the yellow board further down the road changed to green a few seconds later. I don't really know how the marshal posts work but I would assume they got a message from race control to wave the greens and they did so a few seconds before the next board changed automatically, making the pass legal.

Probably clearing away from the crash he caused 2 laps previously without investigation

That was further down the road at turn 5 though, not on the straight. I would go back and watch it to see what it was for but I can't really be bothered.

With the way the FIA behave with regards to the rulebook, who knows? It certainly seems to imply that there were a specific set of rules for this race. I'm sure the drivers (except Kimi) were aware of what they were after the drivers' briefing on Thursday.

I'm not going to pretend the FIA are clear and consistent with the rulebook but I still don't think they meant anything as much as you're insinuating. Every track has some different, specific rules and specifications like regarding cutting the white line, kerb use etc. I don't think they're suggesting the green/yellow flag rules were different for Brasil.

 

[Ardius]

For reference, the yellows around turn 3 were for Maldonado's crash which wasn't caught on camera. Hence there being a green on the exit up to turn 4.

 

[Samus]

Another addition:

Drivers are given indications of the status of a race track by three different methods - trackside flags and lights and a display in their cockpit. These are all supposed to coincide. But in reality there are more flags than lights, and the FIA says it has told drivers to respond to the first indication of a change of status, whether that be light or flag. The cockpit display is not supposed to be able to contradict the track-side indicators, whether flags or lights. One of the complications of this situation, is that it does - Vettel's dashboard display continues to indicate he is in a caution zone after he passes the green flag the FIA says is on the inside of the track by the pit lane exit."

So the only "issue" as far as I can see is that Vettel's dashboard display didn't go off when it was meant to do, a technical issue.

 

[Nessy]

It's simple really.. The FIA just aren't doing a good enough job.
I really dislike Vettel (not an Alonso fan either), but i wouldn't like to see a championship decided 4 days after the final race.
Due to the inconsistencies, and poor clarity of the rules by the FIA, is the reason why people are making such a big deal about it (IMO).

 

[Samus]

It's simple really.. The FIA just aren't doing a good enough job.
I really dislike Vettel (not an Alonso fan either), but i wouldn't like to see a championship decided 4 days after the final race.
Due to the inconsistencies, and poor clarity of the rules by the FIA, is the reason why people are making such a big deal about it (IMO).

No no really, the only reason a big deal is being made out of it is because the video came to light but if people watched it clearly enough they'd have seen the green flag and there would be no big deal.

FIA have done nothing wrong on this particular incident. Others sure, but this one is fine. The only issue is as above that his dashboard light took too long to go off.

 

[BHRxRacer]

And it was a false decision back then.

Don't mean to start an old debate but, so were 99.9% of the decisions against Schumacher and if I remember correctly 100% of this season's decisions. I still get sick every time I remember the penalty for speeding in the pit lane before the race had even started.


Can we start a useful debate, like thinking up ways to replace the stewards?

 

[Nessy]

FIA have done nothing wrong on this particular incident. Others sure, but this one is fine.

(Bold) You see... that's the problem, the FIA have a proven record of inconsistency, if it wasn't for that, maybe people wouldn't be questioning decisions made by them in the first place.

 

[Famine]

Had this been Vergne overtaking Ricciardo, nothing would be said. So yes, it quite clearly is a fuss kicked up because it is Vettel and because there is a championship on the line and because people are more willing to pick apart races trying to find something he did wrong and nail him for it.

This of course is not unique to Vettel, but any championship contender. But quite clearly this didn't get brought up because of inconsistent stewarding. Thats just a reason for confusion and question - but not why its brought up in the first place.

Pretty sure I originally brought it up because a collision wasn't investigated (or rather because no investigation was noted), regardless of whose fault it was or who was involved.

*checks*

Yep.

Not bothered about championships or who's involved. I just don't want to revisit 1994 because of carelessness.

Yes that is true but they should have known about the rule for how a race ends behind a safety car.

Maybe... but...

2010 was Michael's comeback year. The last time a race finished behind a safety car was Italy 2009 - the safety car didn't even pick up the leaders. Prior to that it was Australia 2009 and, yes, the SC pulled in on the last corner and everyone proceeded across the line in that order. Before that it was Canada 1999 and Schumacher crashed on lap 29 into the Wall of Champions - I'm not actually sure what the safety car did on the last lap.

And that was the first time ever.

So Schumacher had never been involved in a safety car finish before. Mercedes were told that the SC was coming in and the race finishing normally. The SC boards which should have been out were not out, no yellow flag rule was in effect, no yellow lights on his dash and a pair of marshalls at separate posts at Antony Noghes were waving green flags...

I see what you're saying but remember the flags came first so to speak, they are supposed to serve the same purpose as the boards, the electronic boards are just meant to be clearer and of course electronically controlled, not manual. If the flags held no power so to speak they would be worthless and the whole track controlled by the boards. That isn't the case.

Indeed, but with the electronic system there's no chance of anyone but race control giving drivers instructions. There's also redundancy in the form of circuit-side boards and dash lights. The flags now should be used as reinforcement, rather than the first line and superceding boards.

Or a backup in case of technical failure.

Remember the green flag didn't supersede the yellow flag, it was just waved before the yellow board further down the road changed to green a few seconds later.

Quite so. However race tracks are divided into marshalling zones - from 4/5 for each sector upwards, some comprising just a single corner. The boards mark the transition between zones. I believe that this particular zone at Interlagos is zone 4, but I can't remember precisely.

Under yellow flag conditions, drivers are expected to reduce lap speeds to certain "delta" times that they must not beat within each marshalling zone, for the safety of marshals. The delta is displayed on the dash in F1 - and it's usually much less in corners than it is on straights unless there has been a serious accident, for which there'll usually be a safety car deployment anyway and deltas become irrelevant.

With the board flashing yellow at the start of zone 4, zone 4 becomes a yellow zone and drivers should reduce speeds to the delta for that zone. Clearing the zone halfway down it kinda misses the point of having the zones - they're there to effectively allow the smallest possible part of the track to stop being track to allow the marshals to tidy up when people have an optimism:talent ratio incident without losing too much time, pace or temperature.

They certainly shouldn't be allowed to be cleared by one guy waving a rag...

I don't really know how the marshal posts work but I would assume they got a message from race control to wave the greens and they did so a few seconds before the next board changed automatically, making the pass legal.

They are in constant radio communication with race control, yes.

However, the message would have gone out at the same time as race control cleared the boards and the dash lights. Vettel's dash lights were still yellow when he passed the marshal post.

I'm not going to pretend the FIA are clear and consistent with the rulebook but I still don't think they meant anything as much as you're insinuating. Every track has some different, specific rules and specifications like regarding cutting the white line, kerb use etc. I don't think they're suggesting the green/yellow flag rules were different for Brasil.

They did specify before the race that solid yellow boards meant a slippery surface warning (yellow/red flag) while flashing ones were cautions - leading to fans thinking Vettel passed Kobayashi during a caution.

 

[Samus]

I'm not doubting Schumacher was very unlucky in that the trackside marshals made errors but the rulebook was followed that day, albeit very harshly because of the errors.

As for the Vettel incident rather than reply to that all individually I'll just post what Benson said again:

the FIA says it has told drivers to respond to the first indication of a change of status, whether that be light or flag

Whether right or wrong if that truly is what they're told then Vettel acted correctly and that's all there is to it.

 

[Famine]

Indeed - but I'll reiterate that my issue isn't with Vettel's actions (nor Alonso's - locking into turn 1 on lap 2 under yellows? Naughty), rather those of race control and the race stewards.

 

[M3Alex]

They did specify before the race that solid yellow boards meant a slippery surface warning (yellow/red flag) while flashing ones were cautions - leading to fans thinking Vettel passed Kobayashi during a caution.

I was in the circuit at the end of the main straight and during the yellow/red warning, the board was flashing red/yellow

 

[Famine]

With respect, the race stewards insisted that the boards were solid yellow indicating slippery surface.

Though given their standards last weekend, that in no way precludes you from being right.

 

[BHRxRacer]

I was in the circuit at the end of the main straight and during the yellow/red warning, the board was flashing red/yellow

It was strange. First it was flashing yellow, then green, then solid yellow right where Vettel made his mode before the pit entry then it was flashing yellow again from middle of the straight until the end like you said. I don't know why they singled out that particular section with solid yellows whereas the rest of the track was flashing. Perhaps they didn't think anyone was going to overtake there? Stupid as that sounds, it's possible.

With respect, the race stewards insisted that the boards were solid yellow indicating slippery surface.

Where/when did they say that? I keep hearing people talk about what the stewards said and stuff, but I only know from what was on the broadcast.

 

[Famine]

Martin Brundle caught up with Gary Connolly, one of the four race stewards.

Edit: I don't have an online or print source for the whole thing but, Brundle said that Connolly said the boards were slippery surface indicators and Ted Kravitz, the pitlane guy, reported that the drivers had been told a static yellow light was a slippery surface light while a flashing one was a caution during the Thursday briefing.

 

[BHRxRacer]

Martin Brundle caught up with Gary Connolly, one of the four race stewards.

Edit: I don't have an online or print source for the whole thing but, Brundle said that Connolly said the boards were slippery surface indicators and Ted Kravitz, the pitlane guy, reported that the drivers had been told a static yellow light was a slippery surface light while a flashing one was a caution during the Thursday briefing.

I'm aware of the latter but I didn't catch Brundle speaking with Connolly. Fair enough anyways. Always surprised me how some members on the internet seem to know who the stewards are, and the full list of their activity during a GP.

 

[M3Alex]

Well, I am pretty sure what I saw, as that board caught my attention when it flashed red/yellow, only after I take a look at the marshal from that position

 

[BHRxRacer]

Well, I am pretty sure what I saw, as that board caught my attention when it flashed red/yellow, only after I take a look at the marshal from that position

At the end of the straight, yes. Vettel was already ahead.

 

[Dunkinator]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20540952
*uk users only*

 

[nealcropper]

It's obvious that Vettel seen the green flashing light from the exit of that corner, I don't know which one it is. The flag was very hard to see.

So, do the rules state that you have to pass the light, or be within viewing distance of it?

 

[Famine]

Pass - the zone ends at the light. Though in this instance the zone ended at the flag despite there still being zone left.

 

[nealcropper]

Pass - the zone ends at the light. Though in this instance the zone ended at the flag despite there still being zone left.

I think that zones should apply. If they don't, then why are they there?

Also, the flag was REALLY hard to see, I seen the green flashing light as he left the corner. I didn't see the flag at all.

 

[G.T.Ace]

It's different from a driver perspective and possible that Vettel focused on the marshall post. Anyway, it doesn't matte, since he didn't brake any rules and it's over now.

 

[wajdi1977]

It's different from a driver perspective and possible that Vettel focused on the marshall post. Anyway, it doesn't matte, since he didn't brake any rules and it's over now.

This:tup:

 

[Hun200kmh]

Ferrari asked for clarification to the FIA, the FIA replied, Ferrari considers the matter closed.

The serious version

The SniffPetrol version (LANGUAGE WARNING)

 

[BlacqueJacques]

The season is over and done with; so start arguing about next season eh

 

[RACECAR]

Just so I'm clear on 2013 season, DRS and the Stepped nose (or "Duckstep" as some reffer to it) are out, right? If so, thats great as we'll have no more horrid noses and we'll have more ones like Mclaren had this year.

 

[ghskilla]

DRS is gone? Or do you mean using DRS anywhere on the track during Practice and Qualifying?

 

[RACECAR]

DRS is gone? Or do you mean using DRS anywhere on the track during Practice and Qualifying?

As in gone. I thought I heard about DRS being gone earlier in the season (around the time of the Monaco GP I think). I'm asking again as I'm not sure if that was just speculation or was true.