2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil

[hornet_burnout]

Senna is portraied the good kid, who was forced to play dirty to get even/ahead, usually illustrated on Suzuka incidents. And Prost as the old fox that knew and used all the 'tricks' to fight him.

People then tend to make them Angel and Devil. It was not that clear cut...

 

[ghskilla]

I hope by "educate yourself" you're referring to people generally, rather than me personally - I've not said anything about Prost, and certainly nothing to place him on a level below Senna*.

Again, if Prost is underrated, then that's the fault of the people who haven't bothered to learn just how good a driver he was.

And you're right, I think Senna's style was more divisive - much more love/hate than Prost, who people tend to respect more than love or hate. Part of this is Prost's calculating style, and part I think is that he still didn't seem to have the grit of Senna. I seem to recall on more than one occasion, Prost simply gave up racing when the weather got too bad. That just isn't the sort of thing Senna did. It is the sort of thing quite a few modern F1 drivers seem to do, judging by their radio messages in bad conditions...


* Okay, apart from that one reference from Monaco '88 above, but that was particularly special from Senna.

I think that was in Adelaide '89, after he won the world championship. I'm sure this was one of the reasons why he didn't want to race in those conditions:



I think the "Senna" documentary, while inspiring, had a negative impact on Prost's reputation. In Gran Turismo 5, I'd have an auto message that says "Alain Prost" whenever I join a room. Sometimes, a person would be "Senna was better, Prost sucked because Balestre was a 🤬" etc. It puts Prost on a bad light and anyone who just watches the film gets the idea that Prost was the "evil guy" and Senna was the "underdog fighting against all odds."

 

[homeforsummer]

Again, that's really the result of people getting everything they know about Senna from the movie. The first season I remember watching, 92, was a Mansell year. No Prost. The next, 93, was a Prost year. I was too young to grow up with potential negativity so I always automatically think of Prost as one of the really quick guys. However, I've subsequently watched enough races from the 80s to know that both Prost and Senna were chuffing good in the right situations.

As for the late investigation re: Vettel/yellows, I hope nothing comes of it. I'm not really a Vettel fan but it'd reflect horribly on the sport.

 

[hornet_burnout]

We're getting too old :s

Then again, not old enough to have seen Fangio drive...

 

[That90sGuy]

Andrew Benson just posted on twitter "Ferrari trying to establish whether there is enough evidence to protest Sebastian Vettel for overtaking under yellow flags. Story soon."
I thought they weren't going to bother but maybe they will.

I didn't know you could protest a race that finished several days ago. Really hope it doesn't happen. What's done is done.

EDIT: Full BBC article

 

[gogatrs]

I didn't know you could protest a race that finished several days ago. Really hope it doesn't happen. What's done is done.

It would be a pretty lame thing to take a WDC away from him for. The entire race was pretty much run under yellow with all the off and ons.

I wonder what Stirling Moss would have to say about all this...

 

[nealcropper]

Tell you what really doesn't help. The fact that everything I've ever watched about Senna portrays Prost as a bad guy, with Senna as the baby face good guy.

That is exactly the problem.

In that interview with Prost at Goodwood festival of speed, he said that he wasn't happy with how he was made to look in the film "Senna".

He said that Ayrton used to ring him almost every week, although they had quite a bad professional relationship, they had a very good casual one. That says a lot about both of them.

 

[gogatrs]

I didn't know you could protest a race that finished several days ago. Really hope it doesn't happen. What's done is done.

EDIT: Full BBC article

Red Bull could not be reached.

I wonder what they're all up to?

 

[PeterJB]

Typically Ferrari. What a trashy way to try and win a title.

 

[That90sGuy]

Well, all I can say is that if this appeal is successful this will probably become the most controversial championship decision ever (even more-so then 1997).

 

[Samus]

Well, all I can say is that if this appeal is successful this will probably become the most controversial championship decision ever (even more-so then 1997).

+ make F1 a laughing stock. Again. Right or wrong it's done, changing a race and a championship winner four days or more afterwards would be ridiculous.

 

[nealcropper]

+ make F1 a laughing stock. Again. Right or wrong it's done, changing a race and a championship winner four days or more afterwards would be ridiculous.

Yes it would be. It would only goto show that the stewards are not doing their jobs properly whilst the race is going on. This should have been sorted then.

 

[Pagey279]

I hope the appeal isn't successful, for the good of the sport. If it's revoked now and handed to Alonso imagine the bad press Formula 1 would get as a whole. I think it would be detrimental for everyone involved, from the stewards to Bernie, from Red Bull to Ferrari.

And anyway looking through this thread it seems as though they haven't really got much to build a case on. I haven't watched the footage so I could be wrong but weren't the passes legitimate?

 

[Leo0308]

Footage I've seen thus far seems sound, and the standard penalty would change the result.

Not a good way to win a championship for either driver.

 

[That90sGuy]

But in regards to the penalty, the race finished under safety car and thus the field was compressed. If a 20 second penalty is applied (the equivalent of a drive-through), then it would technically contravene the rules saying you can't take a drive-through during a safety car and thus the penalty is greater then it would be under normal race conditions?

 

[Centura]

EDIT: I just noticed that it had already been posted. Sorry.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Guys, read this post please: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7849889#post7849889 /debate

 

[That90sGuy]

Technically I'm not debating the pass and if it has come across that way then I'm sorry. I'm more discussing that if Ferrari protested or the FIA decided to investigate themselves then what would the ramifications of that penalty would be and the like, so my previous post stands.

Personally, I think the debate over whether Vettel passed under yellow flags is over too, but, the reports that are out there are suggesting that either Ferrari or the FIA are wanting to take a look at it. Now whether that is true or not we should wait and see. The debate should be over, but we unfortunately have to wait and see about these new developments, which is continuing to fuel this debate further

 

[avens]

Drivers are always driving to the limits of the cars. For most drivers, that's their personal limit. The difference is that some drivers can drive beyond the limits of their cars, and that's what makee them champions.

This was a good race for Button. He showed why he's in that McLaren. He may not have the abiloty to get 110% out of the car in terms of speed, but he sure got 110% out of it in terms of tire.

Rain is always great Not for the accidents, but because the racing becomes more about the driver than the car.

Exceeding the limit of a f1 car = death. They all try to reach its limit, some get closer than others at certain moments, but no one is driving like a maniac like in almost all other categories. That's why all drivers (besides kamui) are so calm and the car feels completely planted.

Also consider that current f1 cars are somewhat drifting all the time.

 

[avens]

This makes champions.

 

[Samus]

Like I said earlier if it did happen illegally I don't know how they could have missed it, they have telemetry and data which shows them every time any car passes another and the status of the track when and where the pass took place. It should be rather simple to determine from their data, they shouldn't need any footage.

 

[Wardez]

I actually don't mind if it's overturned. Stranger things have happened too.

 

[Samus]

I wouldn't care in terms of the title, like I said before they're both deserving of it. In terms of the sport though it'd be awful, a terrible way to decide a championship and it'd just make the sport look ridiculous. F1 has been ridiculed in the past for race results changing 24+ hours later for whatever reason, changing the title winner would be madness. I don't really follow football but it'd surely be the same as changing the winner of a World Cup four days later because it turns out video replays show a goal didn't actually go in.

Just leave it.

 

[nealcropper]

I wouldn't care in terms of the title, like I said before they're both deserving of it. In terms of the sport though it'd be awful, a terrible way to decide a championship and it'd just make the sport look ridiculous. F1 has been ridiculed in the past for race results changing 24+ hours later for whatever reason, changing the title winner would be madness. I don't really follow football but it'd surely be the same as changing the winner of a World Cup four days later because it turns out video replays show a goal didn't actually go in.

Just leave it.

Yeah your kinda right.

That said, if they had goal line tech in football, the decision would have been made there and then.

I hope the FIA have done the same.

 

[Barra333]

Like I said earlier if it did happen illegally I don't know how they could have missed it, they have telemetry and data which shows them every time any car passes another and the status of the track when and where the pass took place. It should be rather simple to determine from their data, they shouldn't need any footage.

They have status of the track based on the LED boards, but unless there is some funky technology in that green flag being waved in the gif above, the telemetry will say the pass is illegal. BUT, we can all see that Seb passes a waved green flag, then the Torro Rosso, then a yellow board. So the video evidence is absolutely necessary.

 

[Samus]

But if the data says the pass was illegal they would have instantly seen that, that's how they catch anyone for yellow flag infringements. So if we assume they were notified of it they either ignored it (Which would create an even bigger number 2 storm) or they saw it, verified it with the video footage and did nothing.

Hopefully one way or another we get an FIA statement soon to clarify it. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.

 

[Barra333]

But if the data says the pass was illegal they would have instantly seen that, that's how they catch anyone for yellow flag infringements. So if we assume they were notified of it they either ignored it (Which would create an even bigger number 2 storm) or they saw it, verified it with the video footage and did nothing.

Hopefully one way or another we get an FIA statement soon to clarify it. The longer this drags on the worse it gets.

This.
Do we need a statement from the FIA to verify every pass is legal? The internet community made it an issue, the internet community have subsequently shown there is no problem. If SKY didn't have the red button thing, this thread would have died 3 days ago.

 

[That90sGuy]

If SKY didn't have the red button thing, this thread would have died 3 days ago.

It also doesn't help that he media are reporting hat Ferrari are considering appealing the result

 

[niky]

Exceeding the limit of a f1 car = death. They all try to reach its limit, some get closer than others at certain moments, but no one is driving like a maniac like in almost all other categories. That's why all drivers (besides kamui) are so calm and the car feels completely planted.

Also consider that current f1 cars are somewhat drifting all the time.

Exceeding the limits means finding time from the car that a "natural" driving style would not. In other words, do something differently. "Upset" the car. "Throw" it around. Do something most people would consider stupid.

If exceeding the limits meant certain death, then drivers like Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso would not have 1/2 of a second per lap over their team-mates in qualifying. Put all drivers in something like a go-kart, which has very specific limits, and they should turn out laps within a tenth of each other.

Granted... there are cars that are designed to do this... to take advantage of unusual effects. Alonso's old Renault, or Vettel's Red Bull now, are cars which require you to rethink driving entirely. I'd say Alonso's Ferrari at the start of the season, the twitchy monster that it was, was also an example. But those two drivers did and could. Their team-mates, who drive at their own limits and who couldn't or can't adapt, were much slower.

I'd argue that all the drivers are driving at their limits. It's just that some have limits that are obviously higher than others. And if their limits and the cars' limits don't coincide, they adapt, and find the new limits... while other drivers just plod on, doing the same thing they've done from day one.

 

[RACECAR]

I've always been under the impression that of all the race cars in the world, Formula 1 cars only work at their best when they are driven to (and sometimes above) their limits.