2012 Nissan GTR [0-60: under 3 seconds]

[Adamgp]

We've talked about this before: the warranty on any car typically is void if it breaks from during "racing activities," legal or illegal. Basically, track your car, kiss your warranty goodbye. Even race cars can't go 30,000 miles without needing parts being rebuilt. Some race cars can't even go 1/4 mile without needing a rebuild.

But it's not a race car, it's a production car.

I know full well that warranties are void for "racing activities", but people who buy high performance cars like this will probably want to test its performance sooner or later.

 

[Jim Prower]

But it's not a race car, it's a production car.

I know full well that warranties are void for "racing activities", but people who buy high performance cars like this will probably want to test its performance sooner or later.

and they should do so knowing that if they break it, they're gonna have to pay. They'll have to prepare the car properly, and, sadly, many owners won't do that. They'll launch the car hard when the tranny or engine is cold in order to show off to their friends, (since they've done it five times before) and they'll end up lunching something.

Performance is no substitute for stupidity.

The problem nowadays is that the computer records what was going on in the car, so they can't just take it to the dealer and say "Uh, it just broke while I was drivin' around" and try to get their own stupidity fixed for free. Before computers, you could kinda get away with this if you were a good liar and the mechanic didn't know what to look for...if they couldn't prove it, you got it fixed on the manufacturer's dime. Now, it can't be done.

Of course, the kind of person who'd do this is also the type who'll get on their blog and complain (holding my tongue) about how bad the car, dealer, and/or manufacturer is, not taking responsibility themselves. You drive hard, you'll probably break stuff sooner or later, no matter how durable the vehicle is. Don't try and lay the blame on the manufacturer. Prepare your car before a trackday. Don't push it too hard. Believe me, everything I've read regarding trackday events say that they're really, really hard on cars, and if you don't do some preparation beforehand, you'll end up having a pretty bad day.

And, most of all, don't go around stoplight dragging people to show off how big your wallet/genital regions are. Chances are you haven't prepped for spontaneous races with some kid and his WS6 Trans Am.

The unfortunate case with the GT-R is that, since it's a car that apparently brings up extreme emotions of love or hate in people for no reason whatsoever, any problem with it will be magnified times ten. Look at any car in it's performance class, and you'll likely find that they have their own, less publicized problems, which are okay, since they're established marques.

 

[Adamgp]

But if Nissan (or any other car maker, for that matter) is going to advertise that their car can do something, it should be able do it more than once without the car breaking. If not, they should put a disclaimer:

"This car does 0-60 in under 3 seconds, but it can only do it once. The warranty will be void if you attempt to test the capabilities of this car. Just drive it like a grandma"

 

[Mil1983]

But if Nissan (or any other car maker, for that matter) is going to advertise that their car can do something, it should be able do it more than once without the car breaking. If not, they should put a disclaimer:

"This car does 0-60 in under 3 seconds, but it can only do it once. The warranty will be void if you attempt to test the capabilities of this car. Just drive it like a grandma"

LOL
You could not be more right!👍

 

[Jim Prower]

But if Nissan (or any other car maker, for that matter) is going to advertise that their car can do something, it should be able do it more than once without the car breaking. If not, they should put a disclaimer:

"This car does 0-60 in under 3 seconds, but it can only do it once. The warranty will be void if you attempt to test the capabilities of this car. Just drive it like a grandma"

Oi. @_@

Yes, it should...but you should make sure it's broken in, everything's up to temperature, etcetera. For that matter, that the tires are at the right pressure and you have plenty of brake, too, if you're going to do more than accelerate.

If you're out on the street and doing dry-hops with the engine and tranny still cold, you're gonna break stuff. For that matter, this sort of activity is typically what caused the GT-R's transmission to break in launch control: showing off with an unprepared car.

For that matter, Magazines tested the car over and over, none of them broke a tranny, even before the LC was removed. Why? The cars had been broken in, and were running and up to temperature before they made their test runs. If a Magazine's worth their salt, they'll launch the car several times, making sure it's not too hot or cold before. Fact is, we heard of these breakages from private owners.

You know as well as I do that you don't go straight off the lot with both rear tires smoking. or straight from home on a cool day. But many people don't get that.

The warranty voiding clause is pretty standard for most vehicles. Treat it hard and they want you to pay for how you treat it. Has nothing to do with what the car can do - if you beat on it and neglect it while you're hooning about, you don't get free repair. That simple.

Nissan probably didn't handle the warranty snafu as well as they should have. I'm sure owners felt left out in the cold. But, honestly, I'm siding with Nissan on this - break it in, don't do cold hops, and don't drive everywhere like you stole it, and the tranny should at least last through occasional track use.

Should add that these warranty matters...typically...only apply if the reason the car broke is determined to be from this activity. You're not going to get turned down if your headlight goes out prematurely while you're doing burnouts. unless you hit something.

 

[Mike1027]

Impressive for a production car, hope to see one in my area soon!

 

[AlexGTV]

I go take one and if my girlfriend does not like it i'll go take another one (girlfriend).

 

[niky]

But if Nissan (or any other car maker, for that matter) is going to advertise that their car can do something, it should be able do it more than once without the car breaking. If not, they should put a disclaimer:

"This car does 0-60 in under 3 seconds, but it can only do it once. The warranty will be void if you attempt to test the capabilities of this car. Just drive it like a grandma"

The GT-R does exactly the advertised 0-100 km/h time with the launch control off. If you don't use launch control, warranty stays intact.

With the launch control on, you can do 50-100 launches before breaking the transmission.

If you attempt 20 launches in a row on a cold transmission, it'll break. Which is similar to a BMW M3 DSG.

If you attempt 3 launches in a row in a Ferrari F430 with launch control... with or without warming it up, it'll break. Which is why US models don't get launch control.

If you did several launches on a Diablo clutch... goodbye $10-$15k clutch. In other words... a $20k GT-R tranny lasts five to ten times as long as a $10k supercar clutch or a $15k Ferrari tranny. Not bad, huh?

Come on... you think all cars are indestructible? If you want to do a sub-5 second launch in a Subaru WRX STi, you need to launch at near-redline. Just two or three of those and the clutch is absolute toast. After two or three clutches, you'll need to replace the drivetrain and engine mounts. Go hard enough, and you'll start breaking drive axles...

 

[Tornado]

If you did several launches on a Diablo clutch... goodbye $10-$15k clutch.

And, as I recall, "several launches" for a Diablo basically boiled down to "using the transmission in general," to the hilarious dismay of several U.S. automotive magazines.

 

[Adamgp]

Oi. @_@

Yes, it should...but you should make sure it's broken in, everything's up to temperature, etcetera. For that matter, that the tires are at the right pressure and you have plenty of brake, too, if you're going to do more than accelerate.

If you're out on the street and doing dry-hops with the engine and tranny still cold, you're gonna break stuff. For that matter, this sort of activity is typically what caused the GT-R's transmission to break in launch control: showing off with an unprepared car.

For that matter, Magazines tested the car over and over, none of them broke a tranny, even before the LC was removed. Why? The cars had been broken in, and were running and up to temperature before they made their test runs. If a Magazine's worth their salt, they'll launch the car several times, making sure it's not too hot or cold before. Fact is, we heard of these breakages from private owners.

You know as well as I do that you don't go straight off the lot with both rear tires smoking. or straight from home on a cool day. But many people don't get that.

The warranty voiding clause is pretty standard for most vehicles. Treat it hard and they want you to pay for how you treat it. Has nothing to do with what the car can do - if you beat on it and neglect it while you're hooning about, you don't get free repair. That simple.

Nissan probably didn't handle the warranty snafu as well as they should have. I'm sure owners felt left out in the cold. But, honestly, I'm siding with Nissan on this - break it in, don't do cold hops, and don't drive everywhere like you stole it, and the tranny should at least last through occasional track use.

Should add that these warranty matters...typically...only apply if the reason the car broke is determined to be from this activity. You're not going to get turned down if your headlight goes out prematurely while you're doing burnouts. unless you hit something.

You've missed my point entirely three times in a row. I'm done.

Come on... you think all cars are indestructible? If you want to do a sub-5 second launch in a Subaru WRX STi, you need to launch at near-redline. Just two or three of those and the clutch is absolute toast. After two or three clutches, you'll need to replace the drivetrain and engine mounts. Go hard enough, and you'll start breaking drive axles...

Show me where I said that.

 

[Jim Prower]

If every car were to be built to last through 5 years of drag launches without a rebuild, they'd have 5-speed Lenco transmissions, Billet 9-inch rear ends, and about 300 hp worth of engine. In other words, way too much drivetrain and not enough power.

You seriously underestimate the damage done by this sort of activity, and thus, you lay the blame on the manufacturer for "not building the car tough enough" when they really can't and offer a standard warranty at the same time. Most trackday cars don't have warranties longer than a year, after all, and that doesn't include "consumables" like clutches, brake pads, and the like.

I'm done.

 

[Tornado]

You've missed my point entirely three times in a row. I'm done.

Probably because you were parroting things that weren't particularly accurate when they were said the first time, back when the transmission debacle started.

 

[SuperShouden]

Okay, I have no idea what Nissan is up to with this car, but it has dropped a full 10 seconds around the Nurburgring from the 2011 GT-R. The 2011 is the one we've got to beat in GT5 with 7'24.xx the 2012...got a 7'34.xxx. I mean...I could understand a couple seconds slower...but...10 seconds? Wow!

 

[niky]

Most trackday cars don't have warranties longer than a year, after all, and that doesn't include "consumables" like clutches, brake pads, and the like.

Most trackday engines don't have warranties longer than 30 hours. Which is about one endurance race plus practice... or a month's worth of practice.

 

[Stotty]

Porsche provide a 2 year warrantee on the GT3RS (extendable to 3 years)... and a pretty much standard GT3RS managed to finish 11th in this years 24h Nurburgring... so it's not out of the question to have a decent warrantee.

 

[Joker-GTBR]

Okay, I have no idea what Nissan is up to with this car, but it has dropped a full 10 seconds around the Nurburgring from the 2011 GT-R. The 2011 is the one we've got to beat in GT5 with 7'24.xx the 2012...got a 7'34.xxx. I mean...I could understand a couple seconds slower...but...10 seconds? Wow!

With the same driver?

 

[lllSeanTlll]

WOW that's quick!

 

[JadeRaven]

That's ridiculous. And a car that weighs in at close to two tons. I figured they already were pushing the limit as it was on a production car.

I'd still be quite happy with an '09

My "reasonable dream car" that I hope to afford in the next five or six years. . .

 

[niky]

There was a previous thread on this... merging... done!

-

While some will cry: "But the Porsche has already done it under 3 seconds!", take a second to note:

Car and Driver did 60 mph in under 3 seconds. Nissan did 62.

Car and Driver use 1 foot rollouts and SAE correction for everything. Including toasters... so their numbers are useless unless comparing to other Car and Driver numbers.

Nissan's runs were done in really really cold conditions... that's the part I find most amazing.

Can't wait to see what magazines and drag racers can get out of this car, stock.

 

[Tornado]

In b4 "but but but but but but but but cold conditions help turbocharged cars."

 

[arvin charles]

Would this GTR last more than five laps without its playstation dashboard lighting up (like transmission overheating for example)?

And lets not kid about how expensive the maintenance is on these GTRs, it makes running a GT3 RS look cheap in comparison.

 

[Jim Prower]

Hey, if you don't like it, you don't like it, that's fair enough.

I don't like the F40PH, and for even shallower reasons than perceived durability flaws.

 

[arvin charles]

Perceived? Take one to the track & watch its components overheat.

It takes a lot to make the R35 track worthy. (It takes a lot of coolers that's for sure!)

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Would this GTR last more than five laps without its playstation dashboard lighting up (like transmission overheating for example)?

And lets not kid about how expensive the maintenance is on these GTRs, it makes running a GT3 RS look cheap in comparison.

GT3 RS is streetable trackday car with naturally aspirated engine and relatively low torque and a lot less weight. How about doing the reasonable thing and cpmparing apples to apples, as in GT-R to Porsche Turbo S and suddenly the price differences aren't that large.. And I'm pretty sure that Porsche has sold more Porsche Turbos than Nissan has sold GT-R's, which might also explain the P-cars more affordable pricing on the maintenance front.

 

[niky]

Perceived? Take one to the track & watch its components overheat.

And you know this because you've overheated a lot of GT-Rs?

It takes a lot to make the R35 track worthy. (It takes a lot of coolers that's for sure!)

It takes a lot to make many high horsepower turbocharged or big-engined cars trackworthy. Many newer turbocharged cars overheat their transmissions and virtually shut down after several drag launches. It was very interesting watching the look of panic on a fellow road testers face when he overheated the TC-SST on a brand new Lancer! And that was with just five minutes of hard driving on a parking lot course!

It's not unheard of for high-powered big engined cars to break serpentine belts, blow hoses, or overheat in traffic. Hell... a good thrashing with any modern turbocharged performance car will get the engine bay hot enough to cook eggs for hours after shutting off.

Now a GT3RS is a different animal. It's a car built specifically for track use, with a less powerful engine and all the requirements for endurance racing. A GT-R isn't a track car. It's a big, powerful GT that will do several laps at an incredible pace, after which you will no longer have the brakes or tires to do any more... long before you have any problems with the engine or transmission.

 

[Stotty]

From what I've heard discussed on various forums, the GTR is a very effective track car on some circuits. Some guys were discussing a trip they made to the Ring and Spa in this summer (2 gen1 GT3RS's and 2 GTR's). Apparently the GTR's were fabulous on the Ring, but the RS's had them back at Spa.

Most of the magazine reviews I've read have also praised the GTR's track ability.

But I doubt a virtually standard one could manage to finish the Nurburgring 24h race... particualrly not in 13th place overall.

 

[Neal]

Have a graph

 

[arvin charles]

And you know this because you've overheated a lot of GT-Rs?

I know this because I'm friends with some PCA members who have owned both GT3s & GTRs.

Here's some of their comments on the GTR:

"Any how, 5k service intervals, warranty that does not mean much and worries of tranny failure and if you read GTROC SERIOUS issues with blown engines all took away enjoyment."

"Tranny Fluid changes are like $800. And if you are tracking, it would seem to be needed to be done all the time to stay in warranty. That could add up quickly....."

"They are a heavy car that is hard on pads, rotors and tires and to maintain warranty for track use, it needs to go to the dealer before and after a track day + the infamous trans oil change after each track day as it suposedly begins to break down when it hits 130 degrees celcius."

From the GTR forums:

"...you'll need a tranny cooler, oil cooler, diff coolers, brake ducting, and sway bars. In addition, one poster noted that he can only go about 15 mins before tranny temps exceed limits and he had to run cool down laps."

"Many of you probably know that after many hot laps of GT-R, some GT-Rs might get overheated and go into limp mode. According to GTRWorld, Nissan's solution on that for the Spec V models is to change the radiator cap that can support higher pressure. They claim the internal pressure of radiator is too low especially after pit in, the temperature will raise very high. So, the result is they use a 180kpa (26.1 PSI) radiator cap on the Spec V. That sure is one high pressure radiator cap I have ever seen on a regular production car."

Now a GT3RS is a different animal. It's a car built specifically for track use, with a less powerful engine and all the requirements for endurance racing. A GT-R isn't a track car. It's a big, powerful GT that will do several laps at an incredible pace, after which you will no longer have the brakes or tires to do any more... long before you have any problems with the engine or transmission.

You're right. It's a big, heavy GT. However, a lot of GTR fans seem to believe it's an unbeatable track monster when it's far from it. It's an impressive technological marvel & a great street car. A lot are under the impression that it's an awesome bang for your buck car when it's not. There are plenty of owners of really expensive cars that will caution you as to the true running costs of the Nissan...

 

[Stotty]

Obviously a 500bhp 1,800-1,900kg car is going to be MUCH heavier on consumables than a 425bhp 1,350kg car.

I've been following David Yu's long term reports on his GTR in EVO and so far all seems to be good with his despite him running lots of track days, drag events and V Max events... though having siad that I did see his car on the back of a transporter on the M40 a few months ago (it's easily recognised as it's got a purple wrap on it) - but no news of any issues in his EVO reports.

His car now has over 600bhp and as far as I can remember is still running standard suspension and tranny. Though I think he's running different pads and I know he's on Toyo track day tyres rather than Bridgestone run flats.

I noticed a lot of people who are track day regulars are now starting to move to dedicated track day cars as they realise just how muhc it costs to regularly track your very expensive road car. Things like old M3's & 328i BMW's, stripped, with a cage, decent coilovers and good tyres now seem to be the thing if you don't want to run a Caterfield or a Radical... much cheaper to run and not far off the lap times a road based track day car will turn... and far less wallet threatening if it all goes a bit Pete Tong.

 

[niky]

I know this because I'm friends with some PCA members who own both GT3s & GTRs.

Here's some of their comments on the GTR:

"Any how, 5k service intervals, warranty that does not mean much and worries of tranny failure and if you read GTROC SERIOUS issues with blown engines all took away enjoyment."

I read NAGTROC. The serious issues are with blown transmissions with poor run-in and lots of drag-strip work (which will happen with most cars), and blown engines with lots of power and lots of track work... which will, again... happen with most cars. I've been on the import forums for decades... and very few stock street cars will not suffer serious engine issues on the racetrack after prolonged use.

"Tranny Fluid changes are like $800. And if you are tracking, it would seem to be needed to be done all the time to stay in warranty. That could add up quickly....."

Never debated the servicing point. But Porsches are no piece of cake to maintain, either, if you want to stay within the Porsche warranty.

"They are a heavy car that is hard on pads, rotors and tires

Noted that, too.

and to maintain warranty for track use, it needs to go to the dealer before and after a track day + the infamous trans oil change after each track day as it suposedly begins to break down when it hits 130 degrees celcius

."

Known problem, the transmission fluid. Note the 'supposedly'. But the best part is below:

From the GTR forums:

"...you'll need a tranny cooler, oil cooler, diff coolers, brake ducting, and sway bars. In addition, one poster noted that he can only go about 15 mins before tranny temps exceed limits and he had to run cool down laps."

15 minutes on track. Did I mention the Mitsubishi TC-SST overheated and went into limp mode after just five minutes? Many of these fancy new gearboxes don't do well on the racetrack... they really do get hot quickly... but then, some traditional automatics chew themselves to pieces when they get hot enough. It's actually nice that newer cars will go into limp mode if you run them hard long enough.

"Many of you probably know that after many hot laps of GT-R, some GT-Rs might get overheated and go into limp mode. According to GTRWorld, Nissan's solution on that for the Spec V models is to change the radiator cap that can support higher pressure. They claim the internal pressure of radiator is too low especially after pit in, the temperature will raise very high. So, the result is they use a 180kpa (26.1 PSI) radiator cap on the Spec V. That sure is one high pressure radiator cap I have ever seen on a regular production car."

As I said.. it's not too uncommon for this to happen to modern high strung turbocharged engines. Nothing new there. And limp mode means you're going home with a car that still runs. Infinitely preferable to going home with your car on the back of a flatbed and a blown gasket.

Again: we're comparing a bespoke made-for-track car with a road-going GT that's too big, too heavy and too hard on tires and brakes to be raced on a daily basis. Said road-going GT gives fantastic lap-times but doesn't have the endurance to do more than fifteen minutes on track at full blat. Big deal. Most street cars can't do more than that safely. (frothing oil, cracking brake discs, coolant boil-over, boiling brake fluid, oil starvation... or all of the above... take your pick) It's not a problem unique to the GT-R.

You're right. It's a big, heavy GT. However, a lot of GTR fans seem to believe it's an unbeatable track monster when it's far from it. It's an impressive technological marvel & a great street car. A lot are under the impression that it's an awesome bang for your buck car when it's not. There are plenty of owners of really expensive cars that will caution you as to the true running costs of the Nissan...

Ah. There's the rub. Yes, the GT-R is expensive to run. But it is a great toy if all you're doing is the odd track day and time attacks (timed laps, cool-down in-between)... but like Stotty says, running any modern car on a regular basis on track can get real expensive... (which is why many people trailer their exotics between track events) ...hell... the stuff you're required to replace between track days are things I would change between track days, regardless... and at least Nissan lets you keep the warranty if you do the maintenance... unlike some manufacturers, where you're basically shafted whichever way you go.

Besides... it's not the car's fault if there are those with an unrealistically high (or low) opinion of it.

If you want something to actually go racing in... I can think of a zillion cars more practical to race than a GT-R or a Porsche 911 Turbo. A GT3RS is on that list... but at the head of it is a twenty year old Miata with twice its value in aftermarket coolers and brake parts thrown in...