2014 European Parliament elections

[Carbonox]

I'm actually rather surprised no thread has been made for the elections yet. After all, this could well be an important moment in European history due to the ongoing talk about the possible future federation.

Most countries will vote on the 25th of May, but England Britain and Netherlands already did today (22nd), Ireland and Czech Rep. will do on the 23rd, and Italy, Latvia, Malta and Slovakia on the 24th. (To be more exact, the Czechs seem to be able to vote on 24th as well, and Italians on 25th)

Of course no one's forced to tell about who they're voting for here, but at least some general discussion is always welcome. What do you want from EU?

 

[Jet Badger]

I want them to pay less for the europarliamentars. We came second to last in proposals over the last year in the Europarliament so yeah, our politicians for the win. Earning less than a single euro per hour I would like to see the people who get 20-30 times greater earnings actually do something.

 

[Liquid]

What do you want from EU?

Disassimilation and a more traditional economic trading community. Won't happen because reversal of the Euro is a long way off.

Protection of free speech in all member states.

 

[DK]

At the moment, the Socialist bloc are looking most likely to get my vote for their actions against ACTA. The trouble is that the Irish Labour Party (which is a part of that bloc) are taking a hammering in polls here.

 

[squadops]

What do you want from EU?

To go away.

 

[TenEightyOne]

To go away.

For what reasons?

 

[squadops]

I don't mean to cut it short, maybe we can expand on it later but for now I will say this; I am interested in free trade and a fare shake for anyone willing to make an effort. I feel that has been compromised.

I have a fickle lady that requires my attention atm, oops

 

[Carlos]

What do you want from EU?

The EU is just a business model to make the most out of it citizens. It must go away and never return. I don't like the people representing the EU, I haven't chosen those people that are there and I will certainly don't approve them to run my life.

 

[kikie]

What do I want from EU?

That all the borders are closed again as it was many, many years ago. Every country has it's own currency instead of the Euro.

 

[TenEightyOne]

What do I want from EU?

That all the borders are closed again as it was many, many years ago. Every country has it's own currency instead of the Euro.

What about the countries that were virtually insolvent before joining the Eurozone, without being part of the Eurozone they'd be bankrupted back to the financial status of 2nd world states?

Going down that path would lead to the idiotic mainland politics of the 70s and early 80s. I understand national pride, I have some myself, but I also understand that we're a set of pretty small powerless countries for the most part and there simply isn't enough money in one to keep individual economies going. You need that crossflow over a wider area now people buy things online and travel further in their leisure time.

In the late 80s early 90s it was very difficult for construction workers to get work because of the amount of cheap labour flooding the mainland from Britain, now the situation is reversed of course (leading to a rise in fortunes of nutters like UKIP, a favourite in Essex Man country). That's how it works, you won't stop economic migration, you won't stop distance selling and you won't stop people flying away for a smutty weekend.

That's why you need the Eurozone, if you're a country with all your money going out and not much coming you don't have much to help balance the value of your economy and, more importantly for countries like Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece you don't have the weight of the central bank to support you when you have to stop making Taramesalate and Hummus (a double dip recession).

 

[DK]

The things I want the European Parliament to focus on are encouraging social mobility and defending a free and open Internet.

I have no time for Euroskeptics who shout "NO!" to every bill going through the EP regardless of whether they've even looked at the front pages of said bills. I see the open borders of the EU as a plus rather than a minus, it makes travel a hell of a lot easier. Those open borders can also improve social mobility - I don't begrudge an eastern European immigrant to Ireland if they come to work.

 

[kikie]

What about the countries that were virtually insolvent before joining the Eurozone, without being part of the Eurozone they'd be bankrupted back to the financial status of 2nd world states?

Going down that path would lead to the idiotic mainland politics of the 70s and early 80s. I understand national pride, I have some myself, but I also understand that we're a set of pretty small powerless countries for the most part and there simply isn't enough money in one to keep individual economies going. You need that crossflow over a wider area now people buy things online and travel further in their leisure time.

In the late 80s early 90s it was very difficult for construction workers to get work because of the amount of cheap labour flooding the mainland from Britain, now the situation is reversed of course (leading to a rise in fortunes of nutters like UKIP, a favourite in Essex Man country). That's how it works, you won't stop economic migration, you won't stop distance selling and you won't stop people flying away for a smutty weekend.

That's why you need the Eurozone, if you're a country with all your money going out and not much coming you don't have much to help balance the value of your economy and, more importantly for countries like Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece you don't have the weight of the central bank to support you when you have to stop making Taramesalate and Hummus (a double dip recession).

National pride has got nothing to do with my reasoning. Close the borders so no foreign cheap labour/foreigner criminals can come into Belgium. There are so many small business going bankrupt because of the open border and foreign cheap labour policy. More Belgians are getting unemployed due to the foreign cheap labour, etc .... .

 

[TenEightyOne]

National pride has got nothing to do with my reasoning. Close the borders so no foreign cheap labour/foreigner criminals can come into Belgium. There are so many small business going bankrupt because of the open border and foreign cheap labour policy. More Belgians are getting unemployed due to the foreign cheap labour, etc .... .

Where will you get the money to hire the more expensive Belgian workers? When you start on that path you begin a cycle. If work's that hard to find in Belgium then move, it isn't THAT big a planet*.

*Although you are from Belgium. JOKE**!


**A bit

 

[kikie]

Where will you get the money to hire the more expensive Belgian workers? When you start on that path you begin a cycle. If work's that hard to find in Belgium then move, it isn't THAT big a planet*.

*Although you are from Belgium. JOKE**!


**A bit

It is a fact that many small business are going bankrupt because of the cheap labour from Eastern Europe take away the jobs of Belgians. It's a new trend and it will get worse. Close the borders or don't let them in and Belgians will find jobs again.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It is a fact that many small business are going bankrupt because of the cheap labour from Eastern Europe take away the jobs of Belgians. It's a new trend and it will get worse. Close the borders or don't let them in and Belgians will find jobs again.

Yes, it's happened year on year from location to location for a long time. That's the migration flow at the moment as Europe expands. Has it occurred that perhaps your country is more expensive than the norm?

 

[kikie]

Yes, it's happened year on year from location to location for a long time. That's the migration flow at the moment as Europe expands. Has it occurred that perhaps your country is more expensive than the norm?

Yes, the policitians in Belgium are stupid. We Belgians are champions in paying taxes and still the government doesn't have any money. Big campanies are leaving Belgium because of the very high labour costs. These companies that don't leave Belgium will do everything to pay less, which means hiring foreign cheap labour instead of Belgians, which means less work for the Belgians.

I won't change my mind. I'm against the EU.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes, the policitians in Belgium are stupid. We Belgians are champions in paying taxes and still the government doesn't have any money. Big campanies are leaving Belgium because of the very high labour costs. These companies that don't leave Belgium will do everything to pay less, which means hiring foreign cheap labour instead of Belgians, which means less work for the Belgians.

I won't change my mind. I'm against the EU.

In the face of what you describe (which seems like the situation in a number of mainland countries) you need to be part of the wider economic market to survive.

The reason the Belgians are "stupid" (like others) is that rather than hiring the workers, producing cheaper goods and selling them back to the workers' home market they're refusing to move with the changing face of the world.

Europe today is nothing like it was in 1980, 1960, 1940, 1920, or 1862 (just throwing that one out there for OCD sufferers). Things change, "countries" have to change too to remain part of the system. Society is expanding, and Belgium isn't big enough to hold it in.

 

[MatskiMonk]

People complain about Eastern European labour in the UK too... for some reason. But we have a reasonable minimum wage, so nobody is really undercutting anybody, it just tends to highlight the English that say "it's not worth getting a job" or "we're better off without her getting a job" as spongers.

 

[Famine]

People complain about Eastern European labour in the UK too... for some reason. But we have a reasonable minimum wage, so nobody is really undercutting anybody

That only really works for contracted employment.

Self-employed people or contractors can work for anything, even at a loss. This includes tradesmen and labourers. And that's not even taking into account zero hour contracts or cash-in-hand.


If we'd have got our driveway done by the local do-as-you-likies for cash, we'd have paid a lot less - and helped put the guy who actually did our driveway out of business, as his margins weren't really all that hot to start with. But we went for quality of work over price - and got him back to do our fence.

 

[MatskiMonk]

That only really works for contracted employment.

Self-employed people or contractors can work for anything, even at a loss. This includes tradesmen and labourers. And that's not even taking into account zero hour contracts or cash-in-hand.

If we'd have got our driveway done by the local do-as-you-likies for cash, we'd have paid a lot less - and helped put the guy who actually did our driveway out of business, as his margins weren't really all that hot to start with. But we went for quality of work over price - and got him back to do our fence.

Assuming that tradesmen or contractors in the UK cannot undercut each other on materials, given a similar ethical code of conduct (i.e. they didn't steal the aggregate from a lay-by), then by how much can an immigrant worker afford to take a loss over a native?

 

[Famine]

Assuming that tradesmen or contractors in the UK cannot undercut each other on materials, given a similar ethical code of conduct (i.e. they didn't steal the aggregate from a lay-by)

That's a fairly dangerous assumption.

In fact one of the ways to make larger margins is to overbill for materials and use them on the next job. Of course you do the same on that job and, depending on how much you overcharge, you can do a job entirely free of materials costs every month.

then by how much can an immigrant worker afford to take a loss over a native?

No no, you misunderstand. They are employed as labourers or contractors and paid cash in hand for whatever rate they agree with the person paying them. Very few people ship up from Bulgaria and instantly set up a building company.

Cheap migrant labour - driven by minimum wage laws - is exactly how undercutting happens. And it's at the very bottom of the economic bracket too, which of course will be solved by deciding that people need to earn more and increasing the minimum wage...

 

[MatskiMonk]

That's a fairly dangerous assumption.

In fact one of the ways to make larger margins is to overbill for materials and use them on the next job. Of course you do the same on that job and, depending on how much you overcharge, you can do a job entirely free of materials costs every month.

Well, I'm familiar with that as a practice from a couple of other industries (i.e. attempting to maintain margin supplying Nissan and Jaguar in the Automotive industry), but I don't see what would limit that behavior to immigrants, or the like... surely if it's possible, then anyone can do it, native or not.

No no, you misunderstand. They are employed as labourers or contractors and paid cash in hand for whatever rate they agree with the person paying them. Very few people ship up from Bulgaria and instantly set up a building company.

Sorry, I do see your point, but again at a different level, why will Bulgarians (Romanians, Polish etc.) accept less (cash in hand or not)?


Note: I'm not trying to argue this one way or another, I'm genuinely curious. If I were looking after myself I would be Tory through and through, but, I'm not, I'm also looking into/defending the interests of my close friend, who is is very much in the cross hairs of UKIP at the moment. I value educated opinions.

 

[Famine]

but I don't see what would limit that behavior to immigrants, or the like... surely if it's possible, then anyone can do it, native or not

Sorry, I do see your point, but again at a different level, why will Bulgarians (Romanians, Polish etc.) accept less (cash in hand or not)?

No, the point isn't that it's a behaviour limited to immigrants but that the increased supply of cheap labour increases the incidence of the behaviour.

It becomes a race to the bottom - if you lose out on a job to a guy who'll do it for less, next time you do it for less. The guy who loses out to you does it for less next time. And so on and so forth.

It's not an immigration problem per se - the increased labour force supply can come from anywhere and indeed did as we cut manufacturing jobs in the UK in the 70s (30% of the workforce was in manufacturing in 1970, down to 8% today), putting people with limited skill sets but who could dig holes and carry bricks out of work and into the labour market.

But then it wasn't my point that it IS an immigration problem - my original point was that the "national minimum wage" does nothing to prevent people from being undercut out of work, because it simply doesn't apply to the self-employed, zero hour contracts or anyone who does cash in hand work. It doesn't really matter who's doing the undercutting, though it'd be quite easy to see that an influx of Eastern European labourers - who would be self-employed and likely to accept cash in hand work due to either unfamiliarity with the legality of it or the knowledge that next to nothing can be done about it - would fall into the category. And the more people there are doing it, the more undercutting occurs.

 

[Carbonox]

I sure feel like I have lots of influence in the election when single British parties are getting more seats than all of Finland put together.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I sure feel like I have lots of influence in the election when single British parties are getting more seats than all of Finland put together.

Sarcasm detected... I think... unless you're saying that your vote as a Finn is very unrepresentative in parliament?

The British electoral system is perverse and very unfair, it allows more than half of the country to vote for the loser because every electoral area has a widely varying number of people in it.

That's what happened in the last General Election so the "winning" right-wing Conservatives couldn't ask the Queen to let their leader open Parliament. The mid-ground Liberal Democrats offered a pact with left-wing Labour (the strongest party in the constituencies they 'wanted') but the infamous then-leader Gordon Brown declined. Several written accounts from people in Downing Street at that time suggest an almost Hitler-meme-ish meltdown on Braun's Brown's part.

The LibDems thence gave their voting balance to the Conservatives forming the ConDems (other less-fun concatenations are available). The LibDems immediately delivered on one of their promises; to push for an electoral system for proportional representation.

The Conservatives don't like this idea because they generally win in areas with much lower-than-average population density and therefore would suffer from proportional representation. They grudgingly allowed a public referendum then launched a smokescreen campaign that put most people off even thinking about it (British readers will remember the awful crisp-flavour analogy). The referendum was a failure, we still have our current system.

I think that was that only promise the Liberals ever delivered, apart from to become proper politicians. They've achieved that without doubt; they're tremendously unpopular now.

 

[kikie]

In the face of what you describe (which seems like the situation in a number of mainland countries) you need to be part of the wider economic market to survive.

The reason the Belgians are "stupid" (like others) is that rather than hiring the workers, producing cheaper goods and selling them back to the workers' home market they're refusing to move with the changing face of the world.

Europe today is nothing like it was in 1980, 1960, 1940, 1920, or 1862 (just throwing that one out there for OCD sufferers). Things change, "countries" have to change too to remain part of the system. Society is expanding, and Belgium isn't big enough to hold it in.

The political situation in Belgium is unique and far from ideal and it creates a lot of problems other mainland countries don't have.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The political situation in Belgium is unique and far from ideal and it creates a lot of problems other mainland countries don't have.

All the more reason not to close the borders. Being part of a larger, more structured society is very beneficial for "countries" with split-personalities like Belgium*, whose problems don't actually seem so unique except that their system prevents them returning any parliament (iirc) rather than (like Britain did) returning a losing party in power.

Becoming recognised parts of a wider Union can only benefit sub-societies who feel they don't get their say at the ballot... but that's a political point; business shouldn't be waiting for the politicians to tell them where to make money in any case.

* and UK, and France, and Germany, and Spain, and Italy, and Greece**

** and, on side 2, many many more

 

[DK]

I sure feel like I have lots of influence in the election when single British parties are getting more seats than all of Finland put together.

When it comes to the European Parliament, you need to look beyond your own country, regardless of how Euroskeptic you may be. Ireland has only 11 seats the EP, but the EP is meant to have some say in policies across Europe, it's not a matter of "the whole of Europe vs. us" but a matter of voting blocs, e.g. the EPP, PES, GUE-NDL etc.

 

[Dotini]

Why isn't Switzerland in the EU?

 

[Liquid]

Neutrality.

But it is in other European agreements; Council Of Europe, Schengen and EFTA.