2014 NASCAR Thread

  • Thread starter Jahgee
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Jahgee1124
No, he basically can't do anything like this again until its over or he will get a ban
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And they have gotten much more strict on this then over the years. Before you would have guys like Tony in 2001 knock recorders out of reporter's hands while on probation and not getting much outside of more points being taken away. Now Kurt Busch can swear at a reporter under probation and actually get banned for a race, or Kyle Busch can wreck somebody under caution and be barred for a weekend.
 
Ganon83
And they have gotten much more strict on this then over the years. Before you would have guys like Tony in 2001 knock recorders out of reporter's hands while on probation and not getting much outside of more points being taken away. Now Kurt Busch can swear at a reporter under probation and actually get banned for a race, or Kyle Busch can wreck somebody under caution and be barred for a weekend.
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To be fair, intentionally wrecking another driver under caution is about as unsportsmanlike an act as you can commit in motorsports.
 
MustangRyan
To be fair, intentionally wrecking another driver under caution is about as unsportsmanlike an act as you can commit in motorsports.
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So naturally no sanctioning body is going to tolerate that, not even NASCAR.
 
http://www.sportingnews.com/nascar/...am-penske-indy-brickyard-400-michigan-indycar


Montoya will be driving in two Sprint Cup races for Penske this season at Michigan and Indy, when IndyCar has off weeks. These are two very important races for Team Penske. Indy is obviously important to the team, and Team Penske is still looking for their first Brickyard 400 win. But Michigan is just as important to Roger Penske, since Michigan is the home of Penske Corp.

This will be a great barometer for JPM's actual Cup potential, as Penske has had very strong cars all season long. I don't feel EGR ever really gave him competitive cars, outside of maybe 2010.

Rumors are also circulating that Penske might be trying to fit Sonoma and Watkins Glen into his schedule for this season.
 
Have to agree that it would be his best shot at winning an oval race in the Sprint Cup series, especially with how consistently strong the Penske cars have been this year.

I'm surprised Penske hasn't tried to fit him into the Nationwide road course races, but I guess there's a conflict with Indycar.
 
I won't be expecting much from JPM.

I do agree the cars at ECR may not have been up to the level of Hendrick, JGR, or even RFR, even in 2013 when ECR switched to Hendrick power.

Since 2010, JPM was still outperformed by his teammate McMurray, driving the same equipment.
 
Adamgp
Since 2010, JPM was still outperformed by his teammate McMurray, driving the same equipment.
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That's dead wrong. Look at the last five seasons, and you can see that JPM led every category other than total wins.

kMLTegI.png


Yes, winning absolutely matters and McMurray did win more races. Yes, he also won two BIG races, which is probably why it was impossible to get rid of him over JPM. But, on average, JPM more consistently ran up front, led more laps, and finished higher than McMurray. Over the long haul, the guy that runs up front more often should win more races.

I could make a great argument that McMurray's win total was inflated by three restrictor plate wins ('Dega - Fall '09, Daytona - Spring '10, 'Dega - Fall '13). If I had to choose between a plate-track specialist and road course specialist, I would choose the road course guy, since way fewer drivers have a chance to beat them on their preferred track type. ANYONE could win at a plate track (see Bayne and Ragan), which greatly lowers McMurray's odds to continue winning at Daytona and Talladega. I would take JPM's ~30% chance to win twice a year on road courses over McMurray's ~10% chance to win four times a year at plate tracks.

I could also argue that Montoya had terrible luck when leading late in races (Indy '09, Indy '10, Richmond '13) and should have won much more than he actually did. JPM also never had a good veteran crew chief, which is what I think he needed more than anything else. JPM was also the victim of lots of fluky mechanical failures, especially in the final two seasons.

If I had to choose between McMurray and Montoya in the middle of last year (When Ganassi announced his decision), I would have cut ties with McMurray. Montoya had a chance to win at:

Richmond - Very late caution while running away with the win, finished 4th after restarting in outside of row 2 for G-W-C.
Dover - Leading on final restart, eventually finished 2nd to race winner Tony Stewart.
Sonoma - running 2nd on the final lap when he ran out of fuel, crew chief said he had "more than enough" after final stop. Finished 34th.
Watkins Glen - Running in the top 3 when he spotted a car slowing down out of fuel during the course of the final green flag pit cycle (~lap 60). Asked his crew chief if they should come in now, so they don't get caught out by the caution. Crew chief said no, stay out one more lap. The caution came out, and he and Ambrose went to the back of the lead lap, as everyone that had already pitted passed them when they pitted under caution, because drivers that pit under green don't go a lap down at Watkins Glen. Drove back up through the pack and finished 5th.
Bristol Night Race - Finished 3rd.
 
Also Atlanta 2010, Montoya was running 2nd and catching leader Matt Kenseth by 2 tenths a lap at the end of a very long run with 10 or so laps to go in the race, when Carl Edwards intentionally wrecked Brad Keselowski and brought out a caution. Neither Kenseth or Montoya won

And we know about how he dominated Indianapolis in 2009 until a pitlane speeding penalty

Also when Montoya made the chase in 2009 he was a serious contender for the first few races. McMurray never had that type of success.

Montoya should have had at least 2 oval wins to his credit
 
Earth
And we know about how he dominated Indianapolis in 2009 until a pitlane speeding penalty
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He also dominated in 2010, until Brian Pattie called for four tires on the final pit stop, when everyone else took 2 tires. To make matters worse, Pattie did the exact same thing late in the race one week later at Pocono when JPM was running in the top 5. He finished 16th. Pattie was demoted from his position as Crew Chief the week before the Brickyard 400 a year later, and let go from the team at the end of the year.
 
MustangRyan
That's dead wrong. Look at the last five seasons, and you can see that JPM led every category other than total wins.
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It's not wrong, since McMurray joined ECR in 2010 (as I originally said, JM was a lame duck at RFR in 2009) he has racked up more wins and top 5's than JPM, and with the exception of 2011, better average finishes. So yes, during the period where they both drove the same equipment (2010-2013) JPM was outperformed by Jamie Mac more often than not.

kMLTegI.png


Yes, winning absolutely matters and McMurray did win more races. Yes, he also won two BIG races, which is probably why it was impossible to get rid of him over JPM. But, on average, JPM more consistently ran up front, led more laps, and finished higher than McMurray. Over the long haul, the guy that runs up front more often should win more races.
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See above. I notice you threw 2009 stats in there, I never mentioned 2009. They weren't teammates then driving the same equipment.

I could make a great argument that McMurray's win total was inflated by three restrictor plate wins ('Dega - Fall '09, Daytona - Spring '10, 'Dega - Fall '13). If I had to choose between a plate-track specialist and road course specialist, I would choose the road course guy, since way fewer drivers have a chance to beat them on their preferred track type. ANYONE could win at a plate track (see Bayne and Ragan), which greatly lowers McMurray's odds to continue winning at Daytona and Talladega. I would take JPM's ~30% chance to win twice a year on road courses over McMurray's ~10% chance to win four times a year at plate tracks.
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McMurray has proved he can win on oval tracks, in a predominantly oval track series. He proved that in the Cup, Truck, and Nationwide series where he has wins on non plate oval tracks.

Also, how do you give JPM almost a 1/3 chance in winning road course races in Cup? Seems way high.

I could also argue that Montoya had terrible luck when leading late in races (Indy '09, Indy '10, Richmond '13) and should have won much more than he actually did. JPM also never had a good veteran crew chief, which is what I think he needed more than anything else. JPM was also the victim of lots of fluky mechanical failures, especially in the final two seasons.

If I had to choose between McMurray and Montoya in the middle of last year (When Ganassi announced his decision), I would have cut ties with McMurray. Montoya had a chance to win at:

Richmond - Very late caution while running away with the win, finished 4th after restarting in outside of row 2 for G-W-C.
Dover - Leading on final restart, eventually finished 2nd to race winner Tony Stewart.
Sonoma - running 2nd on the final lap when he ran out of fuel, crew chief said he had "more than enough" after final stop. Finished 34th.
Watkins Glen - Running in the top 3 when he spotted a car slowing down out of fuel during the course of the final green flag pit cycle (~lap 60). Asked his crew chief if they should come in now, so they don't get caught out by the caution. Crew chief said no, stay out one more lap. The caution came out, and he and Ambrose went to the back of the lead lap, as everyone that had already pitted passed them when they pitted under caution, because drivers that pit under green don't go a lap down at Watkins Glen. Drove back up through the pack and finished 5th.
Bristol Night Race - Finished 3rd.
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Jamie has had his share of bad luck and strong runs without winning too. Chances don't mean much, many drivers have a chance to win every week.
 
Adamgp
It's not wrong, since McMurray joined ECR in 2010 (as I originally said, JM was a lame duck at RFR in 2009) he has racked up more wins and top 5's than JPM, and with the exception of 2011, better average finishes. So yes, during the period where they both drove the same equipment (2010-2013) JPM was outperformed by Jamie Mac more often than not.

See above. I notice you threw 2009 stats in there, I never mentioned 2009. They weren't teammates then driving the same equipment.
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I would say that Roush had better cars than Ganassi at that point in time. At worst, they were equal in competitiveness, with Biffle (7th), Edwards (11th), and Kenseth (14th) running quite well that season.

Their stats should certainly be comparable, especially when you consider that JPM was only in his third full season in stock cars (coming from open-wheel), while McMurray was in his 7th full season at the Cup level (having also spent time in lower-level stock cars prior to running Cup).

Adamgp
McMurray has proved he can win on oval tracks, in a predominantly oval track series. He proved that in the Cup, Truck, and Nationwide series where he has wins on non plate oval tracks.
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Since his Cup career began back in 2002, Jamie McMurray has won at Indy (in 2010) and Charlotte (2002 & 2010).

That's it.

All of his other wins were at Daytona (2007, 2010) or Talladega (2009 & 2013). The Indy win only came after a late caution and bad pit strategy by Brian Pattie took Montoya out of the lead. Switch that one single result, and McMurray has 2 (non-plate track) oval wins in 12 years (both at Charlotte), and Montoya would have 1 such win in just 7 years. For whatever it matters, JPM has finished 2nd at Talladega once, and twice finished 3rd. He also had 4 top-10 finishes at Daytona. JPM was a fairly competent plate racer, but usually had terrible luck with getting caught in others' accidents, or weird parts failures (EFI computer not working after rain delay at 'Dega; Jet dryer crash was caused by a suspension piece that suddenly broke).

In the first six races of the 2009 Chase, Montoya finished 3, 4, 4, 3, 35, and 3. McMurray has never once ran that consistently well, let alone done it in the Chase (which he has still never qualified for, by the way). Just two races prior to that 2009 Chase, Montoya finished 3rd at Atlanta. That would be SIX top-4 finishes in an 8-race stretch, six of which were Chase races.


Adamgp
Also, how do you give JPM almost a 1/3 chance in winning road course races in Cup? Seems way high.
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If so, then I think both sets of odds were probably too high.

I would give Ambrose a 30-33% chance, JPM a 20-25% chance, and the field a 42-50% chance at most road course races.

At plate tracks, even the heaviest favorites (Jr, JJ, Kenseth) are probably no better than 10-15% favorites because of the sheer number of people that could win on a complete fluke (Ragan/Bayne/etc).

Adamgp
Jamie has had his share of bad luck and strong runs without winning too. Chances don't mean much, many drivers have a chance to win every week.
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Examples would be way more helpful here. I don't ever remember seeing Jamie absolutely dominate a race like Montoya twice did at Indy. JPM led 116 of 160 laps and then 86 of 160 laps at the Brickyard 400 in back-to-back seasons, only to see the lead slip away late due to a pit road speeding penalty and a bad call on a 4-tire stop.

Yes, everyone "has a chance to win" the race every week, but some chances are a lot higher than others, especially when you get down toward the last 10-20% of the race.
 
MustangRyan
I would say that Roush had better cars than Ganassi at that point in time. At worst, they were equal in competitiveness, with Biffle (7th), Edwards (11th), and Kenseth (14th) running quite well that season.

Their stats should certainly be comparable, especially when you consider that JPM was only in his third full season in stock cars (coming from open-wheel), while McMurray was in his 7th full season at the Cup level (having also spent time in lower-level stock cars prior to running Cup).
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Except my original statement was regarding 2010 on, when they were teammates, driving the same equipment. As you claimed inferior equipment was the reason JPM didn't excel on ovals in Cup.

Also, as I stated above, McMurray was a lame duck at RFR in 2009. As was the whole #26 team as 2009 was the last year for the #26 at RFR.

Since his Cup career began back in 2002, Jamie McMurray has won at Indy (in 2010) and Charlotte (2002 & 2010).

That's it.

All of his other wins were at Daytona (2007, 2010) or Talladega (2009 & 2013). The Indy win only came after a late caution and bad pit strategy by Brian Pattie took Montoya out of the lead. Switch that one single result, and McMurray has 2 (non-plate track) oval wins in 12 years (both at Charlotte), and Montoya would have 1 such win in just 7 years. For whatever it matters, JPM has finished 2nd at Talladega once, and twice finished 3rd. He also had 4 top-10 finishes at Daytona. JPM was a fairly competent plate racer, but usually had terrible luck with getting caught in others' accidents, or weird parts failures (EFI computer not working after rain delay at 'Dega; Jet dryer crash was caused by a suspension piece that suddenly broke).

In the first six races of the 2009 Chase, Montoya finished 3, 4, 4, 3, 35, and 3. McMurray has never once ran that consistently well, let alone done it in the Chase (which he has still never qualified for, by the way). Just two races prior to that 2009 Chase, Montoya finished 3rd at Atlanta. That would be SIX top-4 finishes in an 8-race stretch, six of which were Chase races.
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Despite a strong start to the chase, in 2009 JPM still only ranked 8th in the standings, 400 points out of 1st.

Again, McMurray has proven he can win on non plate oval tracks, both in Cup and other series:

Cup - Indy, Charlotte (plus the 2013 All Star) & Daytona, Talladega of course.

Trucks - Martinsville

NNS - Atlanta, Rockingham, Phoenix, Darlington


If so, then I think both sets of odds were probably too high.

I would give Ambrose a 30-33% chance, JPM a 20-25% chance, and the field a 42-50% chance at most road course races.

At plate tracks, even the heaviest favorites (Jr, JJ, Kenseth) are probably no better than 10-15% favorites because of the sheer number of people that could win on a complete fluke (Ragan/Bayne/etc).
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IMO still way too high, both Ambrose & JPM. But those odds are your opinion.


Examples would be way more helpful here. I don't ever remember seeing Jamie absolutely dominate a race like Montoya twice did at Indy. JPM led 116 of 160 laps and then 86 of 160 laps at the Brickyard 400 in back-to-back seasons, only to see the lead slip away late due to a pit road speeding penalty and a bad call on a 4-tire stop.

Yes, everyone "has a chance to win" the race every week, but some chances are a lot higher than others, especially when you get down toward the last 10-20% of the race.
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Dominate =/= win. Happens all the time in NASCAR.
 
Adamgp
As you claimed inferior equipment was the reason JPM didn't excel on ovals in Cup.
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“Kyle is so fortunate that he got to have his rookie year be the year that our cars are this good,” McMurray said. “It would have been really frustrating for him, especially 2011-2012 would have been tough for Kyle."
Source
 
MustangRyan
“Kyle is so fortunate that he got to have his rookie year be the year that our cars are this good,” McMurray said. “It would have been really frustrating for him, especially 2011-2012 would have been tough for Kyle."
Source
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Give it up man, this is the same guy that naively thinks there a massive lynch mob out their trying to oust Toyota and that by getting rid of them NASCAR will be improved to it's glory days of the 90s. I've given up on what he says, and more so have to because I told him to put me on ignore. Which is great.
 
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MustangRyan
“Kyle is so fortunate that he got to have his rookie year be the year that our cars are this good,” McMurray said. “It would have been really frustrating for him, especially 2011-2012 would have been tough for Kyle."
Source
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From your post above:

This will be a great barometer for JPM's actual Cup potential, as Penske has had very strong cars all season long. I don't feel EGR ever really gave him competitive cars, outside of maybe 2010.
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EGR had horrible equipment. ECR was horrible for them, the team had an owner half the time with Chip putting more focus into his other series while Teresa was Teresa, and they didn't seem to really update their setups much. I could totally see them doing all of this great stuff in 2009 and 2010 then spending the next two years running the same setups. Gotta evolve with the times.
 
You know I like both drivers Ambrose and Mears, they handled it as they saw fit and then moved on past it. Mears took it like a man and Ambrose pretty much stood for what he believed. It's actually nice to see that for a chance instead of Smoke being blown (yes pun intended)...I actually get tired of the let me push you or get in your face.
 
Wilbur
You know I like both drivers Ambrose and Mears, they handled it as they saw fit and then moved on past it. Mears took it like a man and Ambrose pretty much stood for what he believed. It's actually nice to see that for a chance instead of Smoke being blown (yes pun intended)...I actually get tired of the let me push you or get in your face.
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I just get tried of major media reporting on it like all of auto racing is just some big fight or huge crash. I understand say a Joey Logano win isn't the most thrilling story out there on the surface, but how he has gotten his wins this year has been pretty thrilling and could be a good story.
 
Ganon83
I just get tried of major media reporting on it like all of auto racing is just some big fight or huge crash. I understand say a Joey Logano win isn't the most thrilling story out there on the surface, but how he has gotten his wins this year has been pretty thrilling and could be a good story.
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It's no more or less thrilling then seeing the nights NBA highlights and scores. I agree with this notion about media and Motorsports.
 
Ganon83
I just get tried of major media reporting on it like all of auto racing is just some big fight or huge crash. I understand say a Joey Logano win isn't the most thrilling story out there on the surface, but how he has gotten his wins this year has been pretty thrilling and could be a good story.
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Yes it is quite tiring. The only way NASCAR gets reported here is either because:

1. An Australian is on pole/won a race.
2. A crash/punchup.

It's pretty similar for most other motorsport series as well. Actual passing or great duels for the lead are almost never included in news coverage.
 

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