2014 Rolex Australian Grand Prix

  • Thread starter Cap'n Jack
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Just saw part of an interview with Christian Horner on the late news. He claims that other teams were having issues with the sensors, which we already knew, but said that they "must have" turned them off.

The obvious problem with this statement is that the FIA was able to monitor Ricciardo's fuel consumption in real time. And so it stands to reason that they could monitor anyone's fuel consumption like that. Which means that they would have noticed it if anyone had turned their sensors off. Assuming for the moment that someone else did just that, then why didn't the FIA disqualify them, too?

Simple answer: the FIA didn't disqualify anyone else because nobody else did it.
 
prisonermonkeys
Just saw part of an interview with Christian Horner on the late news. He claims that other teams were having issues with the sensors, which we already knew, but said that they "must have" turned them off.

The obvious problem with this statement is that the FIA was able to monitor Ricciardo's fuel consumption in real time. And so it stands to reason that they could monitor anyone's fuel consumption like that. Which means that they would have noticed it if anyone had turned their sensors off. Assuming for the moment that someone else did just that, then why didn't the FIA disqualify them, too?

Simple answer: the FIA didn't disqualify anyone else because nobody else did it.
Click to expand...

Or if they disabled the fuel sensors which is similar to using another sensor they would have to disqualify them too
And I cant see the FIA doing that to all 22 drivers.
 
HKS racer
It's a rule. Eventually a weird one but other teams respected it and Redbull gained an unfair advantage over opponents (nothing new to be honest). FIA can't close booth eyes everytime.
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It's because of the dangers of cars over-harvesting, the fuel flow stops cars from dumping loads of fuel straight into harvesting and forces them to run at a minimum efficiency at all times. It's an important rule to stop all the teams running weird optimum laps that favour recovery.
 
prisonermonkeys
Just saw part of an interview with Christian Horner on the late news. He claims that other teams were having issues with the sensors, which we already knew, but said that they "must have" turned them off.

The obvious problem with this statement is that the FIA was able to monitor Ricciardo's fuel consumption in real time. And so it stands to reason that they could monitor anyone's fuel consumption like that. Which means that they would have noticed it if anyone had turned their sensors off. Assuming for the moment that someone else did just that, then why didn't the FIA disqualify them, too?

Simple answer: the FIA didn't disqualify anyone else because nobody else did it.
Click to expand...


Grayfox
Or if they disabled the fuel sensors which is similar to using another sensor they would have to disqualify them too
And I cant see the FIA doing that to all 22 drivers.
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The answer to that (and a load more info) can be found here:
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/...+2014+Editorial&dm_i=6NM,2A2SP,6QJ8V9,89E7R,1

Racecar Engineering
Red Bull Racing has been disqualified from the Australian Grand Prix after it was found in post race inspection that the RB10 driven to second place by Daniel Ricciardo broke the new fuel flow rate rule. In 2014 Formula 1 cars are limited to 100kg of fuel in the race and it cannot flow to the engine at a rate of more than 100kg per hour. It is this second part the, flow rate which Red Bull exceeded. The teams second car retired early with engine trouble.

The problem which lead to the disqualification stemmed from Red Bull lacking faith in the reliability of the FIA fuel flow meter and deciding to not use it in the race and relying on a backup mathematical solution instead.

The following is an edited version of what happened according to the stewards:

In free practice 1 the team noticed a difference in the flow reading between the first three runs and the fourth. Then that difference carried on throughout Free Practice 2. As a result the team used a different sensor on Saturday but did not get readings that were satisfactory to them or the FIA, so they were instructed to change the sensor within Parc Ferme on Saturday night.

They reverted back to the original sensor which had given the different readings in Free Practice 1. After qualifying the FIA’s technical representative in charge of the flow meters instructed Red Bull to apply an offset to their fuel flow such that the fuel flow would have been legal.
The FIA technical representative went on to state to the Stewards that there is variation in the sensors. However, the sensors fall within a known range, and are individually calibrated (by Calibra Technologies). They then become the standard which the teams must use for their fuel flow.
Red Bull then told the stewards that based on the difference observed between the two readings in FP1, they considered the fuel flow sensor to be unreliable. Therefore, for the start of the race they chose to use their internal fuel flow model, rather than the values provided by the sensor, with the required offset.

A technical directive issued by the FIA at the start of march does set out the methodology by which the sensor will be used, and, should the sensor fail, the method by which the alternate model could be used (which is apparently what Red Bull did).

a. The Technical Directive starts by stating: “The homologated fuel flow sensor will be the primary measurement of the fuel flow and will be used to check compliance with Articles 5.1.4 and 5.1.5 of the F1 Technical Regulations…” This is in conformity with Articles 5.10.3 and 5.10.4 of the Technical Regulations.
b. The Technical Directive goes on to state: “If at any time WE consider that the sensor has an issue which has not been detected by the system WE will communicate this to the team concerned and switch to a backup system” (emphasis added by the FIA.)
c. The backup system is the calculated fuel flow model with a correction factor decided by the FIA.

The FIA’s technical representative observed through the telemetry during the race that the fuel flow was too high and contacted the team, giving them the opportunity to follow his previous instruction, and reduce the fuel flow such that it was within the limit, as measured by the homologated sensor – and thus gave the team the opportunity to be within compliance. The team chose not to make this correction.

The stewards decided to disqualify the Red Bull as the team chose to run the car using their fuel flow model, without direction from the FIA. This is a violation of the procedure set out in the technical directive. Although the sensor showed a difference in readings between runs in P1, it remained the homologated and required sensor against which the team is obliged to measure their fuel flow, unless given permission by the FIA to do otherwise (which the FIA did not do).

The Stewards were satisfied that by making an adjustment as instructed, the team could have run within the allowable fuel flow and regardless of the team’s assertion that the sensor was fault, it is not within their discretion to run a different fuel flow measurement method without the permission of the FIA.

Red Bull however denies any wrong doing and has said that it intends to appeal “following the decision of the FIA that Infiniti Red Bull Racing is in breach of Article 3.2 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations and Article 5.1.4 of the FIA Formula One Technical Regulations with car three, the team has notified the FIA of its intention to appeal with immediate effect. Inconsistencies with the FIA fuel flow meter have been prevalent all weekend up and down the pit lane. The team and Renault are confident the fuel supplied to the engine is in full compliance with the regulations.”

If the flow meters (above) are unreliable then it is likely more teams will have issues through the season, not just in Formula 1 but also in the World Endurance Championship which uses identical units in the LMP1 category. The flow meter is supplied by UK company Gill Sensors. Its method of operation and details of how the FIA and ACO are using can be found in the 2014 Racecar Engineering F1 preview – which can be downloaded free below.
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Other teams may have stopped using the sensor during the race, but with FIA approval and it would appear that RB were given all the required info regarding the flow rate and how to correct for it by the FIA during the race. They then chose to ignore it and use calculations of there own; and lets be honest ignoring the instructions of an FIA tech representative on how to correct for a faulty sensor is pretty much asking to be DQ'd.
 
I think we need to stop talking about the noise and the noses now, they are here to stay for this season at least so I think we need to get used to it...
 
Dodzzz
Now there is a new drama..

Aussie organisers consider suing for lack of sexiness

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that less people would pay for the ticket.
Although I must admit, I enjoyed the tyre squealing sound thanks to the quieter engine sound.
And the effect of new rule changes help me forget about the engine sounds throughout the race!
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Some workmates of mine were sooking about the sounds. Saying they killed F1. People are missing the point. People I have talked to in my neighborhood, are looking forward to when F1 leaves Melbourne. They hate it. They hate the 2 weeks it takes to construct the circuit. Then, the time to deconstruct because, they can't cut through the park as a shortcut to work! People that I know who have lived in the area say it was okay the first couple of years it returned to Albert Park. Now, it's a nuisance.

The only thing fans of F1 may be getting cheated out of is, racing flat out. from the stands, I couldnt tell if anyone was holding back. I saw passes being made. Jockeying for position

As for the cars, I remember it being said the cars may have artificial sound to make the cars louder. Since the cars are being improved each race, just experiment with the mufflers. If a stock '82 RX7 can go from hush quiet, to sounding like a hornets nest after a new owner puts a bazooka out back, it can be done by F1.

My last comment regarding the AGP. Instead of event organisers complaining and trying to find breaches in contracts, be careful. Bernie could easily not renew holding the event here as next year the contract is up. The new F4 category, shifter carts, Touring Car Masters, even having Superbikes should be at this event. It would add more to the on track action than slight of hand with the air show.
 
prisonermonkeys
Just saw part of an interview with Christian Horner on the late news. He claims that other teams were having issues with the sensors, which we already knew, but said that they "must have" turned them off.

The obvious problem with this statement is that the FIA was able to monitor Ricciardo's fuel consumption in real time. And so it stands to reason that they could monitor anyone's fuel consumption like that. Which means that they would have noticed it if anyone had turned their sensors off. Assuming for the moment that someone else did just that, then why didn't the FIA disqualify them, too?

Simple answer: the FIA didn't disqualify anyone else because nobody else did it.
Click to expand...
Which mean Horner and Redbull are talking out of their arse.
Once again.

I'm also very curious to see what FIA would do when they are running for the championship on last race.
2012 Brazil yellow flags ehm ehm.

This sport need fair judgment.
 
the main reason is RB never followed FIA instructions and these last seasons, over their dominance, they often make criticisms toward FIA, wheel manufacturer...
pretty arrogant behavior.
people on the paddock could confirm how arrogant they looks to be
at their beginning, they have been considered as cool and funny team, very similar to Lotus team and when they started to win and dominate F1 scene, they turned into most arrogant team ever seen, even more then Ferrari from 2000 to 2004
i m Ferrari fan btw and everyone agrees they deserved to be disqualified
and in my opinion Vettel in 2012 must take a penalty for not being slower with yellow flags area
 
ultimate
the main reason is RB never followed FIA instructions and these last seasons, over their dominance, they often make criticisms toward FIA, wheel manufacturer...
pretty arrogant behavior.
people on the paddock could confirm how arrogant they looks to be
at their beginning, they have been considered as cool and funny team, very similar to Lotus team and when they started to win and dominate F1 scene, they turned into most arrogant team ever seen, even more then Ferrari from 2000 to 2004
i m Ferrari fan btw and everyone agrees they deserved to be disqualified
and in my opinion Vettel in 2012 must take a penalty for not being slower with yellow flags area
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The thing is you don't need to be a Ferrari fan to admit Vettel should have taken a penalty for overtaking while on yellow flags. Everyone with a little bit of fairness should have said so.
 
05XR8
As for the cars, I remember it being said the cars may have artificial sound to make the cars louder. Since the cars are being improved each race, just experiment with the mufflers. If a stock '82 RX7 can go from hush quiet, to sounding like a hornets nest after a new owner puts a bazooka out back, it can be done by F1.
Click to expand...
What befuddles me is that Indy Car also uses turbo V6's and they sound like this.



Compared to:



I don't know about others but I prefer an Indy Car's note over F1 and to the latter, that's embarrassing to a series with much more people and resources.
 
Well we can start with them being completely different engine specifications. 2.2 twin turbo V6 in Indy to the 1.6 single turbo V6. Other than that I couldn't say. Especially as F1 has a 15k rpm limit and Indy a 12k limit.
 
Dont know if its only MY loss...i remember the first few gp's i went to long long ago, and hearing the v12 ferrari's for the first time,i remember to actually feel it in the stomack,in my feet cause the ground was shaking,i remember people around me jumping up and down because it whas the best thing they ever heard... etc etc...

And i am not moaning,just very dissapointed!

The positive side is how the cars handle(or less actually)and we see them move arround much more...so if they could somehow 'turn up the volume' i would be much more eager to go!!




Spy.
 
MildAshers
Especially as F1 has a 15k rpm limit and Indy a 12k limit.
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But do they even reach that limit? I heard the Dutch commentator stating that they barely hit 12K.
Is there data available that shows their rpm?
 
Dennisch
But do they even reach that limit? I heard the Dutch commentator stating that they barely hit 12K.
Is there data available that shows their rpm?
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Yep - the Sport1 alternate feed has the onboard all race with telemetry- I dont recall seeing anything over 11,500rpm
 
05XR8
Since the cars are being improved each race, just experiment with the mufflers. If a stock '82 RX7 can go from hush quiet, to sounding like a hornets nest after a new owner puts a bazooka out back, it can be done by F1.
Click to expand...

It's not that simple. Road cars have parts on them stock that are designed to reduce noise. F1 cars have no such parts to remove, they would be wasted weight. There's very little scope for removing noise reduction.

The quietness of the current cars comes from just how much energy the turbo is taking out of the exhaust. They can fiddle around with the exhaust configuration so that it sounds louder, but if the energy isn't there they can't make it actually BE louder.

And besides, no F1 team is going to make their exhaust in anything but the fastest configuration, regardless of sound. They don't care about what noise the car makes, they care about winning.
 
I got to thinking more about the new sound of F1 and have realized it may actually be a very good thing for motorsports. It seems one of the main gripes people have about race tracks is the noise the cars put out so maybe having quieter cars will help lessen these complaints a little.
 
Justin
I got to thinking more about the new sound of F1 and have realized it may actually be a very good thing for motorsports. It seems one of the main gripes people have about race tracks is the noise the cars put out so maybe having quieter cars will help lessen these complaints a little.
Click to expand...

Honestly, it was much nicer watching them. Back in the day if you didn't have earplugs in it was legitimately painful to listen to, and even with ear protection it was pretty harsh.

I watched the entire GP from the grandstand on Sunday, and at no point did I feel that I needed ear protection, nor was it uncomfortable without it. Some people still wore earplugs, but not everyone. As one of my friends remarked, "It's a shame they're not louder, but it's nice that my ears aren't bleeding".

They did have a demo each day with an RB7, so it's not like we didn't have anything to compare it to. That thing was crazy loud. You could hear it coming from the other side of the track.

The V8 Supercars and Carrera Cup cars were much, much louder than the F1s. Which is kind of wrong, but once you get over that it's really pleasant to be watching cars that aren't painfully loud.
 
jimipitbull
Which sounds louder at the track - the old sound with earplugs, or the new sound no earplugs?
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Not so simple because that presumes you measure sound through your ears all the time, an 'old' F1 exhaust percussed every part of your body. I haven't heard the new engines in real life but I'd love to.

The entire exhaust (as @prisonermonkeys implied) is entirely about function, no part of the car is there for the hell of it and each piece does what it does because that's the fastest way to do it. I saw a suggest that the FIA could issue 'tuned' exhaust tips (the easiest way to brrraaaarrrp an exhaust), that wouldn't work in the short term but maybe introduce them from next season.

Personally I think it is what it is, in 25 years time we'll wonder what we were all whinging about :D

@Justin, that's a good point... I know Brands has run-off issues too, but some of the track's problems are cause by noise limitation aren't they? This could be a great development across motorsport. I'm suddenly wondering what a series could get out of 900cc 3-pots :D
 
Justin
I got to thinking more about the new sound of F1 and have realized it may actually be a very good thing for motorsports. It seems one of the main gripes people have about race tracks is the noise the cars put out so maybe having quieter cars will help lessen these complaints a little.
Click to expand...

Would certainly help Spa's future.

Although, it could also just make people look for some other reason to hate racing, :lol:
 
Jaywalker
His point, I think, is that the cars sound like lawnmowers...
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Where can I buy one of these V6t Lawnmowers churning out 600+ hp?

outlaw4rc
What befuddles me is that Indy Car also uses turbo V6's and they sound like this.



Compared to:



I don't know about others but I prefer an Indy Car's note over F1 and to the latter, that's embarrassing to a series with much more people and resources.
Click to expand...


It's pretty simple to understand considering the indy formula is larger, in race trim goes 2000 revs higher, and doesn't have an ers system to run through that also muffles the noise more so than the turbo alone. Thus you get a sound in F1 that is deeper yet lower pitch and then you get to hear the waste gates more so under braking due to their higher let off pitch and so on. Due to the fuel restrictions and what not you have to understand that these cars aren't revving up to 15k as allowed, but more so 10k to 11k at max in a race.

Do you guys even turbo? :sly: That last bit is sarcasm

TheCadabers
Wow! I was planning on going to my first Grand Prix this year, now I don't know what to expect.

:yuck:
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A race...

BlacqueJacques
I enjoyed the race but not keen on the new sound of the power units, and I am not the only one:

"Australian Grand Prix organisers have complained to Formula One commercial supremo Bernie Ecclestone about the quieter V6-powered cars and say their reduced volume may have breached race contracts with Formula One management." (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-17/aussie-gp-boss-raps-ecclestone-about-quiet-cars/5326388)
Click to expand...

Yeah that was posted already, and to be honest I feel that has to do more with what happened to the home driver than anything else. Even though the FOM isn't responsible for it
 
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