2016/17 Premier League & General Football Discussion
- Thread starter Liquid
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- 6,515
- Southampton
- RacingAtHome
And we've done a thing. Can't remember what it is though.
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- RacingAtHome
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- Mill Creek, WA
- HighSeasHoMastr
- HighSeasHoMastr
What a match today between RB Leipzig and Bayern Munich. Recorded it cause I knew I wouldn't wake up in time for the start so I've just finished watching it. Incredible match.
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- Aegina
- Willful-Underdog
Manchester City 2-1 Leicester
Ultra bad luck for the Foxes, as the first goal for Man. City was offside and a "missed" penalty from Mahrez.
Awesome goal from Okazaki though! 
Two matches on home remaining for them, against Tottenham and Bournemouth. I hope for a top-half finish on the table, if not a top 8.
Ultra bad luck for the Foxes, as the first goal for Man. City was offside and a "missed" penalty from Mahrez.
Awesome goal from Okazaki though! Two matches on home remaining for them, against Tottenham and Bournemouth. I hope for a top-half finish on the table, if not a top 8.
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- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
Because his record against top teams is poor and he'll cost at least £60 million....
Explain.
Lukaku isn't a bad player, and yes he's proven in the Premier League, but he's not the most mobile, he tends to sit and wait for the ball a lot, and IMO he's not in any way worth close to what he's being touted for. I think he's a good player and he holds the ball up very well, but IMO he's not one of the best, and £60 million for a good player is stupid.
IMO he'd be a very expensive squad player at United, at least he would be if we end up getting the caliber of players we should be attracting (Griezmann, Bale, Kroos etc.)
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I don't understand your logic of comparing Lukaku to players like Griezmann, Bale and Kroos.
Lets not forgot, Lukaku has so much experience for his age. He is a complete striker with combine attributes of strength, pace and height and it is hard to find in this day and age of football and aren't you forgetting he plays for a mid table team which hinders his record against the top 4. Funny how you mention Bale when he has been absolutely terrible this season and become a liability for Real hence why Isco has stepped up since his move from Malaga from about 3 seasons ago and for Griezmann he hasn't had the best of seasons where if Man Utd was to buy him it would be a more riskier buy as he has no experience outside of the La Liga.
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- Norway
No, but having the economic power that United have combined with the history and ambition of the club, and one of the best managers in world football helps. As for the CL spot, that is yet to be decided so...
Mourinho will use the next few transfer windows to build a world class squad. This season he's had to make what he could out of the bang average squad that Moyes and LvG left behind + the four players he signed last summer.
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It sounds less like 'making do' when you consider that those four players were a man who was Ligue 1's top player in 2015-16, a man who was in the Bundesliga team of the season in 2015-16, a man who is one of the world's most expensive defenders and in the CAF team of the year 2016, and a man who appeared in the Serie A team of the year the three previous seasons running, and is the world's most expensive footballer.
With those four alone you could put 7 carthorses out and finish 5th, never mind the world's most expensive teenager, the world's most expensive goalkeeper, the club's (and his own country's) record goalscorer and club captain, another player from Serie A team of the year for two seasons prior to joining the club, the second most expensive British defender (and previously world's most expensive teenager)...
Players aren't the club's problem. The problem is that they went undefeated for 6 months but never got higher than 4th because they drew almost every home game. 13 wins and 12 draws is (amusingly) the worst win percentage of any unbeaten streak of over 20 games in the history of the league. That's not caused by the players, but by the manager.
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Neither the incredibly expensive and patently talented squad with a host of individual awards for being the best players in their leagues prior to moving to United and international club and country honours nor their manager's inability to motivate them to turn draws into victories have anything to do with their performances this season?
Huh?
None at all. I'm rarely in Manchester and I'm not a fan so wouldn't go anyway.
But, crucially, last season he lost the confidence of the players after an argument with the team doctor to the point they stopped playing until he was removed.
With the squad they have, United shouldn't be fighting for 5th and hoping they can get into the Champions League by the recently created Europa League back door that Mourinho himself previously rubbished after inheriting the squad from Benitez that had just won that competition...
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- Norway
None of which translates to instant success in a new team, in a new league, playing for a new manager.
If anything, your logic would suggest that Mourinho is one of the best managers of all time because of his previous accomplishments.
There are many reasons for United's "failure" this season (if a domestic cup trophy, a European cup final and the possibility of CL football next season can be called failure) the least of which is the competence of the manager.
United have 14 draws. One goal extra in 10 of those matches would put United in a position to win the league. They've produced more than enough chances to win those matches.
So your just talking out of your behind?
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You're kinda all over the place here. First you said it was a 'bang average squad' with 'four players he signed last summer' - that's hardly a new team, in a new league. It's four new players.
For the record, that 'bang average squad' and four new players is:
David de Gea - Most expensive goalkeeper signed by a British club (£18m)*; Most expensive uncapped player; Second highest transfer fee agreed for a goalkeeper (£29m)*; Premier League PFA team of the year 2012-2017; Manchester United Members player of the year 2013-2016; Match of the Day save of the season 2012-2016; Europa League team of the season 2015-2016; Premier League winner; Europa League winner; UEFA Super Cup winner; European U17 Championship winner; European U21 Championship winner (twice)
Luke Shaw - Most expensive teenager (£30m)*; Most expensive defender*; Premier League PFA team of the year 2013-2014
Eric Bailly - Most expensive African footballer (£30m)*; CAF team of the year 2016; AFCON winner 2015
Anthony Martial - Most expensive teenager (£36m, rising to £58m); European U19 team of the tournament; Euro 2016 runner-up; Golden Boy 2015
Matteo Darmian - Serie A team of the year 2013-2015
Henrikh Mkhitaryan - Armenian player of the year 2009, 2011-2016; Ukraine premier league footballer of the year 2010-2013; Bundesliga team of the season 2015-2016; kicker Bundesliga player of the season 2015-2016; DFL Supercup winner
Paul Pogba - Most expensive player ever (£89m); Serie A team of the year 2013-2016; Serie A winner (four times); U20 World Cup winner & golden ball; UEFA team of the year 2015; FIFPro World XI 2015; Coppa Italia winner (three times); Italian supercup winner (twice); Champions League runner-up
Wayne Rooney - Record Manchester United goalscorer; record England goalscorer; club captain
Zlatan Ibrahimovic - league winner in Italy, Netherlands, Spain, France; Serie A footballer of the year twice; UEFA team of the year four times; Champions League team of the season 2013-2014; Ligue 1 player of the year three times; World Club cup winner; a list of honours simply too long to go on much longer
Mmm. You can practically smell the averageness. And I haven't even mentioned the next great England hope (aren't they all?) Marcus Rashford. Or the player many think anchors the team like Roy Keane used to, Michael Carrick. I'll allow you Marouane Fellaini, because he is truly inexplicable.
But then, after this was pointed out, you said:
So if all of these players and this very well-decorated manager have absolutely nothing to do with their performances in 2016-17... what does? Answers on a postcard.
My, aren't you the little charmer?
You seem to be making up things that I've said, so it rather appears that I'm talking out of your arse rather than my own. I didn't say anything about instant success, or failure (which you shoved into quotes, then repeated back what United have done this season as if to refute that it was a failure, which I didn't say), or anything else other than the fact that United's squad is not 'bang average' because it's rammed with the most expensive, successful and highly rated players from leagues across Europe.
Literally all I said was that Mourinho isn't having to make do, because he has one of the most expensively assembled teams in the entire of football history, and each player has either commanded a huge, bordering on record, transfer fee for a player of their type or achieved multiple trophies or recognition as the best player in their league. Or both.
Everything else is crap you've made up.
And I'm not sure how that response relates to the fact I don't habitually go to Old Trafford. Do you?
And indeed he is.
Since 2002 he's won eight league titles in four countries, two Champions League titles for two different teams, the UEFA Cup and eleven other cups. He's taken manager of the year recognition at national and international level. He is one of the best managers of all time.
Last season he had a very public falling-out with his team's doctor. The result of that was that he lost the dressing room entirely and the players just about refused to play for him. Chelsea never recovered from the position they had before he was sacked and the fact they missed out on any European competition as a result has put them in an amazing position to take the Premier League this year.
This season he's taken over one of the most expensively assembled squads ever seen and added the best players from the previous season's Serie A (Pogba), Ligue 1 (Ibrahimovic) and Bundesliga (Mkhitaryan). And Eric Bailly. He's lead them to a 25-game unbeaten run - the best in the club's history - but they are still only 6th in the league, behind Arsenal, who are being barracked to get rid of their manager due to the embarrassing failure of not being 4th...
The players are demonstrably not 'bang average', so why are they 6th if not Mourinho?
What would your solution be? Throw money at it? Buy the best players from Serie A, Ligue 1, Bundesliga, La Liga? Mourinho already tried that this year...
But they haven't scored them, so they have 14 draws. United are where they are because of what they have done this season and not because of what they might have done.
The transfers of Ibrahimovic, Mkhitaryan and, particularly, Pogba have also been in the news over payments made to Mino Raiola, the agent of all three. It's alleged that he was paid £41m for the transfer, working for Pogba to drive his contract fee up but also working for Juventus to drive the price up. Along with being pad €19.4m by Manchester United for facilitating the transfer, he was paid €27m by Juventus for his intermediary work and €2.6m by Manchester United as the commission on Pogba's salary.
Andy Holt, Chairman of Accrington Stanley, made a few comments about the ludicrousness of that particular transfer earlier in the week, and the Premier League responded by literally threatening the club - pointing out that the PL pays around £200m into the other three professional tiers each year and suggesting that if Holt isn't happy they could always not pay it...
*At the time of signing
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- Norway
@Famine You're basing your whole 'Mourinho is crap - the players are quality' hypothesis on outdated statistics, previous honors and price tags while having made zero observations this season.
I'm basing mine on observations of every game United have played this season.
A handful of quality players =/= a quality squad.
The fact that you chose to include Wayne Rooney as an example of the squad quality is probably the perfect example of how flawed your logic is.
I'm basing mine on observations of every game United have played this season.
A handful of quality players =/= a quality squad.
The fact that you chose to include Wayne Rooney as an example of the squad quality is probably the perfect example of how flawed your logic is.
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And once again I have to point out to you that I'm ONLY saying that Mourinho didn't inherit a 'bang average' squad that he had to make do with. Anything else you're claiming is simply made up.
The only way to do that is to use the statistics, honours and price tags of what he inherited at the time he inherited it. They show a very expensive, very highly rated, very successful set of players.
Any manager would jump at the chance to walk into a pre-prepared squad with one of the most highly rated goalkeepers, two of the most highly rated defenders, one of the most highly rated midfielders and one of the most highly rated strikers (plus one of the most highly rated emerging midfielders and one of the most highly rated emerging strikers) and then be given the money to bring in one of the most highly rated defenders, one of the most highly rated midfielders, one of the most highly rated strikers and the most highly rated midfielder.
And by your own argument:
... this season they have been what you call 'bang average'. Although they're in a continental cup final (that the manager previously derided) and won the league cup (that the manager previously derided), along with breaking a club record for an unbeaten run, the number of draws - especially at home - has left them 6th in the league, behind other teams that have had their managers (Wenger, Klopp, Guardiola) questioned for their current ability to manage in that league.
If not for the free transfer of the best player in Ligue 1 (good salary though, thanks to Mino Raiola) and the 'bang average' inherited goalkeeper, it might be much worse, but fortunately for United and Mourinho it isn't.
One saving grace at the moment is that Mourinho has more points than Moyes (65 vs 64) and a guaranteed higher finishing position, and he has three games left to equal van Gaal on either front in either season (66pt and 5th; 70pt and 4th).
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- Norway
I didn't make anything up.
You blamed Mourinho for all the draws, right? Implying that there is something wrong with either his tactics or his ability to motivate the players to turn those draws into victories.
If you had watched the matches or looked at the statistics for this season you would see that United has produced a lot of clear goal scoring opportunities. The problem is the poor conversion rate.
That's not down to the manager.
It's quite obvious if you had actually watched the games or looked at the relevant statistics.
But instead you seem to insist on running in circles with your flawed logic which leads me to conclude that you are not at all being objective in your analysis.
So I think we are done.
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Who picks the team and buys the players?
Mourinho inherited the 'bang average' club's record goalscorer (15 goals the previous season), (yet another) emerging English talent (8 goals the previous season) and the world's most expensive teenager (17 goals the previous season). And Memphis Depay (£25m), with his Dutch league title and golden boot in 2014-15. He then signed the striker with too many club honours to mention, Zlatan, fresh from another title and anothet golden boot in another country.
United has and had finishers when Mourinho took over. Depay, Rooney, Martial and Rashford all forgot how to score - Depay, once the world's highest rated emerging talent (second in the FIFA World Cup 2014 young player award... to Pogba), was dropped, demoralised and sold. He now has four times the strike rate at Lyon than he did at United. Only Zlatan hasn't been affected - although Rashford does have more goals this season than last (with more games) and is the club's second top scorer this season with 11.
It's amazing how many players United have that cost them £30m or more and were among their league's best-rated players and/or scorers before joining the club who, this season, cannot perform.
You reckon it's the players who are 'bang average', but they quite clearly aren't - it's not far off being the most expensive squad in history and contains players counted among the best of their type this era. Even your own arguments say that they're only underperforming this season, so if it's not them, what's left?
And if it is, how would you solve it? They already tried spending £200m on the best players from La Liga, Ligue 1, Serie A and the Bundesliga and it clearly didn't work...
Considering that you won't accept data from last season as evidence of the ability and rating of last year's squad, keep attacking things you've made up as if I said them rather than addressing the point I've actually made, and have been pretty close to the border of unacceptably insulting behaviour, you might want to turn that objective lens back on yourself.
You claim the squad Mourinho inherited is 'bang average'. I've refuted that. Their performances this year and how often you and I get to Old Trafford are not relevant to either the claim or the rebuttal.
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Again, you're using irrelevant and/or outdated statistics and price tags as an index of the current quality of the squad. At this stage you're either trolling or you're just being willfully ignorant.
Chances created in PL 16/17 - United are 4th best.
Chances converted in PL 16/17 - United are 4th from the bottom.
That tells most of the story right there. Those 10 draws I talked about were mostly down to the poor conversion rate (and the fact that there are quite a few bang average or even under average defenders which are prone to lapses in concentration), not the lack of managerial skills from Mourinho.
You can repeat the 'but, 30million and he did this in 2014 in a **** league' argument.
You seem to have it in for Mourinho, United and me as a 'damn foreign plastic glory hunter'.
Chances created in PL 16/17 - United are 4th best.
Chances converted in PL 16/17 - United are 4th from the bottom.
That tells most of the story right there. Those 10 draws I talked about were mostly down to the poor conversion rate (and the fact that there are quite a few bang average or even under average defenders which are prone to lapses in concentration), not the lack of managerial skills from Mourinho.
You can repeat the 'but, 30million and he did this in 2014 in a **** league' argument.
You seem to have it in for Mourinho, United and me as a 'damn foreign plastic glory hunter'.
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Nope, I'm using 2015-2016's statistics and price tags as an index of the quality of the squad Mourinho inherited at the end of the 2015-2016 season.
Given that the single point that I'm refuting is that Mourinho inherited a 'bang average' squad, there doesn't seem to be any better index.
Not relevant to the quality of squad Mourinho inherited.
Yeah, remember when I said that you have been pretty close to the border of unacceptably insulting behaviour? That's it right there.
You're just making stuff up. At what point did I call you a 'damn foreign plastic glory hunter' in order for it to be shoved into quotes? Oh yeah, none at all. It rather seems like you're painting a load of hostility onto me for no reason.
It's absolutely inappropriate for this site. If you can't converse like a grown-up, don't participate.
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What other evidence is there for the quality of the 2015-2016 squad that Mourinho inherited other than the statistics, values and ratings of the 2015-2016 squad that Mourinho inherited?
They weren't bang average. It was a group of some of the most highly rated, gifted, most expensive footballers in the world - to which Mourinho added the best players from Ligue 1, La Liga, Bundesliga and Serie A.
That's literally all I'm refuting. Nothing else. Nothing to do with this season. Nothing to do with how many times each of us gets to Old Trafford. Nothing to do with the club. Nothing to do with your nationality. Only that the squad Mourinho inherited was, if not necessarily among the Real/Barcelona/Juventus/Bayern European elite, a very high quality set of players indeed.
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I would agree with the fact that United's season has been average and very frustrating, those draws against teams we should be beating at home (Bournemouth, West Brom and Burnley to name but a few), the fact that Jose gave up on fourth spot when we could have challenged for it AND the Europa League at the same time, the fact that he said the players we tired all the time was bollocks and I think the players believed it themselves in the end.
However, finishing his first season in charge with two trophies is that bad and its something to build on, and I agree with Jose when he said that if we don't qualify for the Champions League then we simply aren't good enough to be there, on this seasons evidence I think he's spot on!
However, finishing his first season in charge with two trophies is that bad and its something to build on, and I agree with Jose when he said that if we don't qualify for the Champions League then we simply aren't good enough to be there, on this seasons evidence I think he's spot on!
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Now that they have won promotion to the Football League, be prepared for a deluge of luvvie media articles turbowanking over Forest Green Rovers and what a special story it is.
Do not believe them. They have losses in excess of £10,000,000 and spent £200,000 on agents this season alone. A non-league club!
It's just another chairman with deep pockets and a bloated payroll who have conspicuously avoided all financial rules because it's the Conference and it doesn't matter and the FA doesn't care.
Do not believe them. They have losses in excess of £10,000,000 and spent £200,000 on agents this season alone. A non-league club!
It's just another chairman with deep pockets and a bloated payroll who have conspicuously avoided all financial rules because it's the Conference and it doesn't matter and the FA doesn't care.
