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Considering how much Ford loves to flood a series with their cars...don't give them ideas.
2017 World Rally ChampionshipRally
- Thread starter Accro2008
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Considering how much Ford loves to flood a series with their cars...don't give them ideas.
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- Hammerhead Garage
M-Sport's continued success would be all the more sweeter with a nice, big FORD logo on the cars.
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- HamiltonMP427
I agree, but it's funny how Ford saturates fields when a division is finally recognized worthy, while other manufactures just look for realistic rules. It's why this season I'm rooting for msport not the manufacture they just happened to keep running. It's like hoping PRA win, just to say "you weren't smart to leave ford". That's just me. So in hindsight you make a great point, a Ford WRC team which is just a second m-sport team would be great even if I don't like how Ford come in and out of racing.
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Honestly, I think they're one of the smarter manufacturers out there. They won't throw money at a project forever - they expect results, and they'd clearly rather have no involvement than to endlessly fund an underperforming team. When Ford withdrew from the WRC at the end of 2012, the series was struggling to say the least. Their withdrawal didn't help, but the series wasn't much better than the WTCC.
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- HamiltonMP427
Yes but WRC isn't like other series that have either many regional version of it that are widely seen, WTCC has to compete with the likes of the BTCC and what not. So the question of would it return to some former glory or not is silly, because it did and always was going to. It's been around for this long, and all it needed was a management change and rules package to improve the racing.
Ford isn't "smarter" they seem more flavor of the time type manufacture than anything, and the moment they can't get something from a series they'll either leave or move on to something else. The only series they'll probably ever bind themselves to (obviously) is NASCAR.
- 6,293
- Canada
I agree, I find Ford's approach very selfish and tasteless.
Look at Le Mans. They make a huge deal about "returning to Le Mans". News flash Ford. If it wasn't for the likes of Ferrari, Chevy, Porsche, and Aston Martin, there's a damn good chance that tbere wouldn't be a Le Mans 24hr for Ford to compete in.
Ford constantly swoops in to claim prestigious trophies, but does the absolute bare minimum to help build trophies and events up in the first place.
Look at Le Mans. They make a huge deal about "returning to Le Mans". News flash Ford. If it wasn't for the likes of Ferrari, Chevy, Porsche, and Aston Martin, there's a damn good chance that tbere wouldn't be a Le Mans 24hr for Ford to compete in.
Ford constantly swoops in to claim prestigious trophies, but does the absolute bare minimum to help build trophies and events up in the first place.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Are you suggesting that a manufacturer shouldn't be allowed to compete unless it has some involvement in the foundation of the sport?
At the time of Ford's withdrawal, the WRC was competing with the IRC and ERC. They may not have been getting the viewing figures, but they were getting the competitors.
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- GOTMAXPOWER
Ford withdrew at the end of 2012 when IRC was beginning to fall apart, it was at its peak about the same time Monte Carlo was on the calendar, it was more enjoyable than WRC at that time in my opinion.
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- Canada
No, I'm not suggesting anything, just observing. Obviously Ford aren't tbe only company who do this, (all of them do on some level), and perhaps Ford in WRC is a less glaring example than Ford in WEC.
Look how big of a deal Ford made out of winning Le Mans last year. But the only reason Le Mans happens and means so much is because other manufacturers and teams go there year after year, and have built it into what it is. What would Le Mans look like if Ferrari, Porsche, etc only participated every 50 years?
It's not as bad in WRC...but still, it's not like Ford went the route of Toyota or Hyundai, building a team from scratch, attracting top drivers, and working from the bottom up. Not Ford. They let M-Sport build the car and attract Ogier, and only after Ogier and the team deliver a win do the rumors that "Ford might be coming back full fledged!" start to happen. Of course they'll be back, someone else built a kickass car with their name on it, and put the world champion in it - time for Ford to cash in.
Like I said, it's just my personal observation. I don't think there should be rules on who can participate depending on who has heritage or whatever. But I will let these moves determine who I cheer for. I like teams who get into racing because it's part of their pedigree, or because they want to prove something - not because the main reason is cash in some marketing chips.
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- Canada
Fair enough. I realize it's a bit of a foggy point, mostly based in my own personal bias.
Of course, everyone who enters into Motorsports does so for a reasons, and most of those reasons could be boiled down to "proving a point". I guess I should say I prefer factory teams who go full bore factory effort from the start (or privateer teams who stay private), as opposed to these "factory teams" who contract out their effort to a race shop, slap their company logo on the car, and take credit for "building a winning car," like Ford seems poised to do in WRC. Other examples would be Nissan in IMSA DPi, or Lexus and Acura in GTD (personally, I think Lexus and Acura have taken the chicken route, putting a full fledge factory effort into what should be an amateur class, instead of stepping up to the plate in GTLM. Same with Audi and their WRT programs).
I don't want it to seem like I have anything against M-Sport either. In my eyes, their one of the heroes. They kept drivers on the starting line when things weren't looking very good....and most of know that WRC is crawling out of a bit of a hole right now. If it weren't for M-Sport, there would only be 3 top shelf teams on the grid this year.
If Ford would have announced a year ago that they planned a full fledge return, and worked hand in hand with M-Sport to build the car, and had Ford reps help lure Ogier to the team, then I wouldn't really have much of an issue. It's just the idea of sliding in to claim the glory after others have done the heavy lifting leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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- mustafur
Considering Ford were in WRC every season from 1979 till 2012 I would say that is a pretty damn long time just for a manufacturer to come in and leave if they don't get anything.
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- 15,389
- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
I don't know why, but I just find Tanak's response hilarious.
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"Dammit Jim, I'm a driver not an engineer!"
- 22,551
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- HamiltonMP427
Okay and as I said, if they're expecting to just pick a group influx a bit of money and win, that's their fault. They lost plenty of times in plenty of series due to lack of development I'd say. Same reason they've been behind the ball in other series as well.
Also ford weren't not there every season they left after 79' world championship win, and then returned as a manufactures in 86 with beloved RS200 and got stomped by established and better running group b cars. Then in 90s their program got better obviously and where they're remembered even more for their Escorts but still didn't win until the mid 00s. Even still they have a deep legacy with Rally racing and for them to leave or feel wish washy until a championship is assured is what I've never liked about them. It's the teams that happen to run Ford cars that I appreciate because they do so with limited help and yet perform decently.
And where are they now? AT the end of the day WRC is the big ticket, and all it takes is the FIA saying "let's fix this" and better rules being invoked and it takes center again. That's the power of the nameplate, and that's the point.
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- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Your logic basically means every single manufacture that does rally today is in the same boat, you can't possibly name a manufacturer that would of stayed in rally as long as them with the limited success they really got out of those years. They have nothing to prove commitment wise in rally I'm pretty sure they have proven that commitment over anyone else.
Just admit you don't like Ford it's fair enough, but your illogical points over their apparent lack of commitment in rally make no sense, that is pretty much their trademark historically.
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- HamiltonMP427
Never said I don't like Ford, just the operation of Motorsports, it's not illogical. And I explained other manufactures actually join series either due to relevant rules, or overall package being accessible and more fair than other series. WRC has always been accessible at times with Group B perhaps being the most expensive. So no they're not in the same boat with Ford
Citereon decided to take a break and build up for the new rules package but made sure they were in an earshot of WRC, and while they waited went to take on a new challenge in WTCC.
Toyota won, for a few years, while racing in an expensive series and nearly winning the major prize of that. Then decided to take on a new challenge that would be the most expensive yet, thus fiscally couldn't really run WRC on a competitive level. When that didn't work out they basically have come back to doing what they did before F1, running Sports Cars and now Rallying.
Hyundai really didn't have an international presence anyways until about the last few years which is why they finally have dipped their toes on a large stage racing wise. Not sure how this is at all comparable.
What did Ford do after they left?
The point you seem to miss, or as usual try to pick a fight out of when you clearly don't understand me (Peter Brock Holden cool wall comes to mind). Is that Ford to me is fly by night, they don't seem to put nearly the same effort as other manufactures do when they join, and when it doesn't work out they leave and just keep it domestic because that's where their product sells anyways.
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- HamiltonMP427
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- I_powerslide
It really doesn't hold for rallying though. Ford stuck with the WRC through it's worst period in the mid-late 2000s, when it went down to 2 manufacturers. All this despite M-Sport never winning a driver's title and only once winning the Manufacturers title.
I despise the way they've handled their GTE program, but they were committed to the WRC as a full factory team for 20+ years. No other manufacturer comes close.
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- HamiltonMP427
I understand where you come from, what I respect is what you mentioned but I feel if they were going to win, they could have. They had the money and resources and instead put it else where. If they sweep in and do as PM suggested, it'd give me the same bad taste the GTE program does. Perhaps I'm critical of them for leaving sports at their worst times and then joining others, when it finally fits their sells agenda and claiming they're doing it because of past glory when that really isn't the case. At least not the primary one.
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- Hammerhead Garage
Because manufacturer points are awarded to the top ten cars registered to score points in the manufacturers' championship. Only M-Sport, Hyundai, Toyota and Citroën are registered to score points. Sordo was fourth, so he got twelve points for Hyundai. Neuville was fifteenth on the road, but the sixth manufacturer entry to finish, so he got eight. Elfyn Evans finished ahead of Neuville, but the rules say that only the best two results for a manufacturer will count. Ogier in first and Tänak in third scored M-Sport's points, so Evans technically wasn't classified in the manufacturers' standings.
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