2018 Heineken Chinese Grand PrixFormula 1

[baldgye]

What are peoples thoughts on how Ferrari basically used Kimi to try and slow down Bottas? They willingly just sacrificed his whole race to try and help Vettel go for the win...


To add to that, Riccy is on the market and the best place would be at Merc of Ferrari... why would he, after the last race, want to go to Ferrari, where he stands a good chance of being treated like a second driver, than Merc who have a very solid track record of having two equal drivers?

 

[Tired Tyres]

Didn't watch this one. What happened? Anything interesting.

 

[Spurgy 777]

What are peoples thoughts on how Ferrari basically used Kimi to try and slow down Bottas? They willingly just sacrificed his whole race to try and help Vettel go for the win...


To add to that, Riccy is on the market and the best place would be at Merc of Ferrari... why would he, after the last race, want to go to Ferrari, where he stands a good chance of being treated like a second driver, than Merc who have a very solid track record of having two equal drivers?

To be fair by the time they reacted to the other pitstops Raikkonen would have come out in 6th anyway. I suppose at least by leaving him out he came out on fresher tyres, giving him a chance of overtaking if he managed to catch anyone in front.

 

[BrainsBush]

What are peoples thoughts on how Ferrari basically used Kimi to try and slow down Bottas? They willingly just sacrificed his whole race to try and help Vettel go for the win...


To add to that, Riccy is on the market and the best place would be at Merc of Ferrari... why would he, after the last race, want to go to Ferrari, where he stands a good chance of being treated like a second driver, than Merc who have a very solid track record of having two equal drivers?

Read my comment a few pages back. Kimi must be angry. Wasn't Kimi about 3 seconds slower in the last couple of laps before pitting vs the drivers on fresh tires? To me with lack of knowledge it looked like he was victimized in favor of Vettel. But willing to learn and open for other opinions

I think Daniel is free to go at the end of the season and I think I've heard him say he will make his 'choice' somewhere around May? But I think his future is already secured and the decisions are made only we as spectators have to wait for the right press moment.
Edit: I think a lot.....typical Dutch-English translating habit.

I had a dream that Max went to Mercedes and Daniel to Ferrari. Sweet dream or another nightmare

 

[shoemaker]

First third of the race was quite boring. Ferrari lost the race with poor decisions on pitting. After that safety car it was a different race, Ricciardo was epic to watch, best performance i have seen in years.

 

[Tajima]

I’m sure Seb cares about whether he finishes P7 or P8. He accepted apologies, he did worse himself, he doesn’t cry about penalties.
Max has finally thrown away a win, it will make him change his approach more than any penalty would. On top of that stewards made sure he won’t get even a podium.
Case closed IMO

It's not about crying, it's about not being blind. I'm sure you are smart enough to realize this huge loss of points can cost Sebastian yet another championship at the end of the season. It's not like Max is anything new to this sort of bs.

How many times this childish, overrated, FIA protected, less capable Redbull driver have to ruin Seb race and get away with laughable penalties?

Ok now I'm seriously raging hahah.. please bear with me . Let's sarcasm a bit, conspiracy Morpheus say: what if i told you Gasly crashed into Hartley on purpose?
A Piquet Jr. 2.0 anyone?

 

[Infernuz]

I had a dream that Max went to Mercedes and Daniel to Ferrari. Sweet dream or another nightmare

He will probably stay at Red Bull. I don't think it will be the best choice to go to Ferrari because it simply won't work.
Vettel and Ricciardo are at an equal level of skill and they both are #1 drivers for a team. Ferrari always has only one #1 driver. From Vettel with Kimi to Schumacher with Barrichelo. It'll just wont work.

 

[BrainsBush]

It's not about crying, it's about not being blind. I'm sure you are smart enough to realize this huge loss of points can cost Sebastian yet another championship at the end of the season. It's not like Max is anything new to this sort of bs.

How many times this childish, overrated, FIA protected, less capable Redbull driver have to ruin Seb race and get away with laughable penalties?

Ok now I'm seriously raging hahah.. please bear with me . Let's sarcasm a bit, conspiracy Morpheus say: what if i told you Gasly crashed into Hartley on purpose?
A Piquet Jr. 2.0 anyone?

Don't tell to anyone you got it via me but I can share this reliable info. You know we Dutchies know each other very good so Jos gave me a quick heads up.

Haven't you noticed that just before the race Max had a tete-a-tete with Nicky Lauda? Nicky asked Max to push Vettel if he wants a seat in a Mercedes next year. Did you see the disappointment in Max' eyes after the race? Max thought he was promised a seat in a F1 Mercedes but Nicky meant a Mercedes CLA but with AMG line as an extra.

Seriously true! F1 is lets say the House of Cards of the race tracks

 

[Tajima]

He will probably stay at Red Bull. I don't think it will be the best choice to go to Ferrari because it simply won't work.
Vettel and Ricciardo are at an equal level of skill and they both are #1 drivers for a team. Ferrari always has only one #1 driver. From Vettel with Kimi to Schumacher with Barrichelo. It just wouldn't work.

But Kimi is way less "iceman" than what he likes to think he is. At the start he attacked Seb who obviously closed the door, Kimi slammed the brakes instead of being smooth, lost position on Bottas on the outside and Verstappen at corner exit. I guess drivers like Nico Rosberg or Ricciardo would have done much better than that. If there's no room just keep second place and stay smooth with a strong pace and attack later!! Instead grumpy Kimi basically taxi drive until safety car. 👎

 

[Infernuz]

But Kimi is way less "iceman" than what he likes to think he is. At the start he attacked Seb who obviously closed the door, Kimi slammed the brakes instead of being smooth, lost position on Bottas on the outside and Verstappen at corner exit. I guess drivers like Nico Rosberg or Ricciardo would have done much better than that. If there's no room just keep second place and stay smooth with a strong pace and attack later!! Instead grumpy Kimi basically taxi drive until safety car. 👎

True. I bet he is just discouraged by the team. Although, he doesn't show any signs of wanting to compete. The last 3-4 years-or more- he has been average. It's obvious that since Vettel's arrival he has been used like that.

 

[Tajima]

Don't tell to anyone you got it via me but I can share this reliable info. You know we Dutchies know each other very good so Jos gave me a quick heads up.

Haven't you noticed that just before the race Max had a tete-a-tete with Nicky Lauda? Nicky asked Max to push Vettel if he wants a seat in a Mercedes next year. Did you see the disappointment in Max' eyes after the race? Max thought he was promised a seat in a F1 Mercedes but Nicky meant a Mercedes CLA but with AMG line as an extra.

Seriously true! F1 is lets say the House of Cards of the race tracks

You just won the internet Sir!

True. I bet he is just discouraged by the team. Although, he doesn't show any signs of wanting to compete. The last 3-4 years-or more- he has been average. It's obvious that since Vettel's arrival he has been used like that.

The big problem with Kimi he is really emtional. Sometimes he can be fast but he taxi drive way too much if something goes wrong during the race. You have to be consistent lap after lap working hard to be a threat for other drivers and be decisive, smooth when is time to pass. This is what Riccardo does and why Ferrari should sign him in my opinion.

 

[Infernuz]

You just won the internet Sir!


The big problem with Kimi he is really emtional. Sometimes he can be fast but he taxi drive way too much if something goes wrong during the race. You have to be consistent lap after lap working hard to be a threat for other drivers and be decisive, smooth when is time to pass. This is what Riccardo does and why Ferrari should sign him in my opinion.

Yeah that's a fact about his emotions. He doesn't really show it with words when being asked (typical fin.) but on the track you can see the impact on his driving.
Honestly, as a Ferrari fan, i want Ricciardo to join Ferrari. He is such a passionate driver and he showed it in China to everyone.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Now, that’s all fine and dandy, I don’t really have issue with SCs myself. However, there’s at least a debate that could be had over why a full SC was called instead of just a VSC.

If you're just clearing a stopped car from an awkward spot, or getting then out the gravel, a VSC is usually ok. If you have a large amount of debris to clear on the Race track, it is a lot safer and easier for marshals to throw a full safety car. You wait for the pack to line up behind it and it gives you a nice 2 minute window to get out there and brush the crap off the track. With a VSC it gets awkward because you still have cars filing past all the time so its tough to find a gap to go out.

In WEC, you can do it better under an FCY where the cars slow down to pit lane speed limit, rather than looking at a time on the dashboard. This means the drivers are going very slow and can pick their way past you.

Still, a full Safety Car makes it very easy and safe for marshals to clear a dirty track.

 

[adb]

It's not about crying, it's about not being blind. I'm sure you are smart enough to realize this huge loss of points can cost Sebastian yet another championship at the end of the season. It's not like Max is anything new to this sort of bs.

How many times this childish, overrated, FIA protected, less capable Redbull driver have to ruin Seb race and get away with laughable penalties?

Ok now I'm seriously raging hahah.. please bear with me . Let's sarcasm a bit, conspiracy Morpheus say: what if i told you Gasly crashed into Hartley on purpose?
A Piquet Jr. 2.0 anyone?

Of course it could cost Seb a championship, I was only talking about the penalty itself, would it change much for Seb if it was a 10sec or a stop and go? It would give him only one position, that’s what I meant.
It’s obvious Max messed up, the only penalty that might affect him is a race ban, did he deserve that? I don’t know that.

BTW how many times did he ruin Seb’s race before, serious question

 

[Jimlaad43]

It's not about crying, it's about not being blind. I'm sure you are smart enough to realize this huge loss of points can cost Sebastian yet another championship at the end of the season. It's not like Max is anything new to this sort of bs.

How many times this childish, overrated, FIA protected, less capable Redbull driver have to ruin Seb race and get away with laughable penalties?

Ok now I'm seriously raging hahah.. please bear with me . Let's sarcasm a bit, conspiracy Morpheus say: what if i told you Gasly crashed into Hartley on purpose?
A Piquet Jr. 2.0 anyone?

When the Haas wheels fell off in Australia, everyone seemed to think it was a conspiracy. Now Toro Rosso gift a win to Red Bull and nobody is saying this.

 

[Tajima]

Still, a full Safety Car makes it very easy and safe for marshals to clear a dirty track.

A common sense Race Director will call a Safety Car BEFORE leading driver approach last turn. But Charlie waited Bottas and Vettel to pass by.. delivering a huge gift to Redbull team........

 

[Infernuz]

Of course it could cost Seb a championship, I was only talking about the penalty itself, would it change much for Seb if it was a 10sec or a stop and go? It would give him only one position, that’s what I meant.
It’s obvious Max messed up, the only penalty that might affect him is a race ban, did he deserve that? I don’t know that.

BTW how many times did he ruin Seb’s race before, serious question

The race ban would have been unnecessary. Let's be real here. If Max caused multiple DNFs or a mechanical failure on the opponent(let's say a damaged back end), then a race ban would have been the obvious choice, plus the penalty points.

 

[Jimlaad43]

A common sense Race Director will call a Safety Car BEFORE leading driver approach last turn. But Charlie waited Bottas and Vettel to pass by.. delivering a huge gift to Redbull team........

The race director calls the safety car at the point when it can come out in front of the race leaders, or as soon as an accident has happened that needs a safety car. There is no other option. You study the GPS so you don't have 3 cars between the safety car and the leader. With long pitlanes, stuff like this happens. As Charlie said, their job is to keep everyone safe and put the safety car out correctly, rather than try to work out which drivers will find it helping their strategy and trying to ruin people's races.

Anyway, you can't call it a fix, why would the FIA throw a Safety Car to ruin Ferrari's chance of winning the race.

 

[Tajima]

Of course it could cost Seb a championship, I was only talking about the penalty itself, would it change much for Seb if it was a 10sec or a stop and go? It would give him only one position, that’s what I meant.
It’s obvious Max messed up, the only penalty that might affect him is a race ban, did he deserve that? I don’t know that.

BTW how many times did he ruin Seb’s race before, serious question

If you ask me he deserve a multiple race ban (LOL) because he already have an history of crashes, bad sportmanship, dive bombing, no sense attempts, and stuff. We can consider it's a fact he likes to target Ferrari guys quite often. Not to mention during pre-season he basically said he will crash into other people again because he is not fighting for the campionship yet. This guy is completely out of control. Look, I can accept Hamilton trolling Seb on Baku restart, that was Seb not realizing in time he was feeding the troll being way too close. His fault. But I can't accept yet another race ruined by Max. Enough is enough.

Now old episodes, I remember that criminal Kemmel zig zag with Kimi at Spa, that controversial Singapore start (ok not completely his fault but he was there (If you have a different opinion I respect that, please let's not beat a dead horse)), Mexico gp puncture to Vettel, there are also other episodes. Funnily enough he gained RBR seat after Ivan Drago/Kvyat tanked Vettel out of a race.. twice. But things are not imporving at all LOL.

And now we have this huge Mortal Kombat Combo: Toro Rosso Piquet Jr. 2.0 + Uncle Charlie Safety Gift + Yet another Seb Vettel annihilation... Sub Zero Fatality. After the race Marko, Charlie, Max, a bunch of mistress, some nazi suits, some whips and... old Mosley filming everthing!

 

[Jimlaad43]

And now we have this huge Mortal Kombat Combo: Toro Rosso Piquet Jr. 2.0 + Uncle Charlie Safety Gift + Yet another Seb Vettel annihilation... Sub Zero Fatality. After the race Marko, Charlie, Max, a bunch of mistress, some nazi suits, some whips and... old Mosley filming everthing!

I think you're going too far now. Stop before you write something stupid.

 

[adb]

The race ban would have been unnecessary. Let's be real here. If Max caused multiple DNFs or a mechanical failure on the opponent(let's say a damaged back end), then a race ban would have been the obvious choice, plus the penalty points.

Agree a ban would be unnecessary, was just pointing out that, on top of a (self-)ruined race, it would be the only penalty that would mean anything to Max

We can consider it's a fact he likes to target Ferrari guys quite often

Maybe, but that's just maybe, it's because he rarely had a car to race Mercedes, and it was much more often that he was on Ferrari's pace, so wouldn't call it targeting

Not to mention during pre-season he basically said he will crash into other people again because he is not fighting for the campionship yet.

Citation needed

I remember that criminal Kemmel zig zag with Kimi at Spa

It was tough, but Kimi got played here.

Mexico gp puncture to Vettel

? Vettel pushed him off track, Max didn't give in, Seb clipped his wing on Max' rear wheel and then oversteered into Lewis, giving him a puncture.

there are also other episodes

Such as?

Look I agree that he messed up in China, he messed up all three races through lack of patience/unnecessary aggressiveness and I agree that he's overall an aggressive driver, but so is Hamilton, Vettel and Ricciardo, it's just that those first two don't really have/don't get to be as aggressive. But he will have to get a bit more composed, like his teammate

 

[Infernuz]

If you ask me he deserve a multiple race ban (LOL) because he already have an history of crashes, bad sportmanship, dive bombing, no sense attempts, and stuff. We can consider it's a fact he likes to target Ferrari guys quite often. Not to mention during pre-season he basically said he will crash into other people again because he is not fighting for the campionship yet. This guy is completely out of control. Look, I can accept Hamilton trolling Seb on Baku restart, that was Seb not realizing in time he was feeding the troll being way too close. His fault. But I can't accept yet another race ruined by Max. Enough is enough.

Now old episodes, I remember that criminal Kemmel zig zag with Kimi at Spa, that controversial Singapore start (ok not completely his fault but he was there (If you have a different opinion I respect that, please let's not beat a dead horse)), Mexico gp puncture to Vettel, there are also other episodes. Funnily enough he gained RBR seat after Ivan Drago/Kvyat tanked Vettel out of a race.. twice. But things are not imporving at all LOL.

And now we have this huge Mortal Kombat Combo: Toro Rosso Piquet Jr. 2.0 + Uncle Charlie Safety Gift + Yet another Seb Vettel annihilation... Sub Zero Fatality. After the race Marko, Charlie, Max, a bunch of mistress, some nazi suits, some whips and... old Mosley filming everthing!

Max is a good driver with loads of potential. The penalty system is pretty well implemented. No need to add a multiplier to his penalizations for his past. He is still developing and is destined to improve. Infact, FIA is expecting him to improve his racing style.

 

[baldgye]

To be fair by the time they reacted to the other pitstops Raikkonen would have come out in 6th anyway. I suppose at least by leaving him out he came out on fresher tyres, giving him a chance of overtaking if he managed to catch anyone in front.

They reacted late yeah, but he would have come out behind Lewis.

By leaving him out so long they basically gave up his race, it was only due to the SC that he was able to actually use his fresher tyres and get the podium (which even then, he only got because of the crash between Vet & Ves, allowing him to pass Ham who was busy trying to avoid them).

Read my comment a few pages back. Kimi must be angry. Wasn't Kimi about 3 seconds slower in the last couple of laps before pitting vs the drivers on fresh tires? To me with lack of knowledge it looked like he was victimized in favor of Vettel. But willing to learn and open for other opinions

I think Daniel is free to go at the end of the season and I think I've heard him say he will make his 'choice' somewhere around May? But I think his future is already secured and the decisions are made only we as spectators have to wait for the right press moment.
Edit: I think a lot.....typical Dutch-English translating habit.

I had a dream that Max went to Mercedes and Daniel to Ferrari. Sweet dream or another nightmare

Yeah I agree it looked like they gave up Kimi’s race to try and help Vettel win. Also interesting that that whole mess (Bottas jumping Vettel) was brought about only because Vettel had forced Kimi so tight into T1 it allowed Bot and Max to pass him. If they had kept it clean and not battled Ferrari would have dictated the pace and the strategy (ignoring the SC ofc).

 

[twitcher]

@Jimlaad43 i agree with what you’re saying regarding a VSC vs a SC.

If the whole idea of the VSC is to neutralize the race with minimal impact on the running order, then perhaps F1 should follow the WEC example like you mentioned.

Again, it’s not something I really have an issue with...to me, SCs are a normal part of racing, just like weather.

However, reading various comments on different sites and twitter, a lot of people seem unhappy about the SC - many going as far as to suggest that Charlie should choose to release the SC at a time when it benefits the leaders. Like you’ve said, to me, that idea is silly, as the race director should only care about deploying the SC in a safe and timely manor, with zero regard for who gets impacted in whatever ways.

Other people are suggesting that the pits should be closed until the leader has the chance to be the first one to pit...again, nonsense. There’s many series that use this rule, and it creates issues of its own - namely that if someone at the very back can manage to sneak into the pits a split second before they close, that car will now be able to jump the entire field if they pit once the lane opens. My gut tells me people would be as upset by that kind of “unnatural arranging of the order” as they are with what played out in China.

So all that to say, if F1 wants to avoid having the SC bung up the running order and tire strat, then they need to look at the WEC VSC system like you mentioned.

 

[zzz_pt]

Did Max get 5 points on his license after China?

 

[Infernuz]

Did Max get 5 points on his license after China?

Yes, in total.

 

[baldgye]

@Jimlaad43 i agree with what you’re saying regarding a VSC vs a SC.

If the whole idea of the VSC is to neutralize the race with minimal impact on the running order, then perhaps F1 should follow the WEC example like you mentioned.

Again, it’s not something I really have an issue with...to me, SCs are a normal part of racing, just like weather.

However, reading various comments on different sites and twitter, a lot of people seem unhappy about the SC - many going as far as to suggest that Charlie should choose to release the SC at a time when it benefits the leaders. Like you’ve said, to me, that idea is silly, as the race director should only care about deploying the SC in a safe and timely manor, with zero regard for who gets impacted in whatever ways.

Other people are suggesting that the pits should be closed until the leader has the chance to be the first one to pit...again, nonsense. There’s many series that use this rule, and it creates issues of its own - namely that if someone at the very back can manage to sneak into the pits a split second before they close, that car will now be able to jump the entire field if they pit once the lane opens. My gut tells me people would be as upset by that kind of “unnatural arranging of the order” as they are with what played out in China.

So all that to say, if F1 wants to avoid having the SC bung up the running order and tire strat, then they need to look at the WEC VSC system like you mentioned.

It's a part of the sport and these things happen. Lewis was unlucky with the VSC in Aus, Vettel with the SC in China.

People are never happy, I don't know how many comments I read from people who clearly don't understand the sport and its history demanding F1 brings back refuelling, as if that will solve all the problems... think of all of the smaller teams that have benefited from the VSC/SC shuffles in order to score points, which can make or break the smaller teams.
Look at the championship now, we have a very close fight with Ferrari and Merc, and we also got to see a mega drive from one of the sports most under-rated chaps!

True. I bet he is just discouraged by the team. Although, he doesn't show any signs of wanting to compete. The last 3-4 years-or more- he has been average. It's obvious that since Vettel's arrival he has been used like that.

I think that's pretty unfair. From what I've gleamed over the years he's very susceptible to the way the car handles, if it's how he likes, he can compete, if not, he doesn't. This year, he's all but matched Seb's quali performances and out performed him in Aus, just getting unlucky with the VSC.

I think if he was allowed to compete fairly and given a fair shot (similar to how Rosberg and Lewis where at merc) he'd be taking more points off Seb than he has done. But for good or bad, Ferrari have pinned the title hopes on Seb and are using Kimi as a number 2. Regardless of it being good or bad in the end, it's got to really mess with how you approach a weekend, especially with how he was treated in China.

 

[DesertPenguin]

No, the safety car timing in China is an actual issue. The contact happened causing large pieces of carbon fibre to be on track. The safety car should come out as soon as that world feed footage is shown for the first time. They waited two whole laps. Enough time for a radio message about it to be broadcasted. Those are on delay.

 

[adb]

Yup, won’t go as far as to say that they waited it out intentionally, but can’t see why they needed so much time to decide a SC for debris right next to apex, and coincidentally put SC right as leaders passed pit entry

 

[DesertPenguin]

The timing based on track position is the bigger WTF. They had two laps to get it going but decided to put it on after the two frontrunners pass the pits giving them no chance to even get the option to pit or not pit. If someone had an agenda it would be hard to hide since all of this information is clear to see.