2018 Heineken Chinese Grand PrixFormula 1

[Infernuz]

I think that's pretty unfair. From what I've gleamed over the years he's very susceptible to the way the car handles, if it's how he likes, he can compete, if not, he doesn't. This year, he's all but matched Seb's quali performances and out performed him in Aus, just getting unlucky with the VSC.

I think if he was allowed to compete fairly and given a fair shot (similar to how Rosberg and Lewis where at merc) he'd be taking more points off Seb than he has done. But for good or bad, Ferrari have pinned the title hopes on Seb and are using Kimi as a number 2. Regardless of it being good or bad in the end, it's got to really mess with how you approach a weekend, especially with how he was treated in China.

Thing is that his stale perfomance over the last couple of years has cost him a lot. Now with Vettel he is being used like a marionette. It's definitely unfair for a driver like him with consistent perfomances and superior skill calibur comparing to others.
There's absolutely no doubt about how good he is. But since he was downgraded to a second driver, team's first for him. Don't think that he is happy about that situation, tho.

 

[AshenGraey]

I think that's pretty unfair. From what I've gleamed over the years he's very susceptible to the way the car handles, if it's how he likes, he can compete, if not, he doesn't. This year, he's all but matched Seb's quali performances and out performed him in Aus, just getting unlucky with the VSC.

I think if he was allowed to compete fairly and given a fair shot (similar to how Rosberg and Lewis where at merc) he'd be taking more points off Seb than he has done. But for good or bad, Ferrari have pinned the title hopes on Seb and are using Kimi as a number 2. Regardless of it being good or bad in the end, it's got to really mess with how you approach a weekend, especially with how he was treated in China.

100% agree with you on that one. I'm not a Ferrari fan but Kimi is one of those drivers that I like to watch because he can still surprise you and I think Ferrari are shooting themselves in the foot by treating him as a number 2. Even if they say that wasn't the case, letting him hang on those dead tires to slow Bottas down for Vettel only proved otherwise. In the Post-Race, Rosberg said something about Mercedes potentially winning the constructor's title if Ferrari keep doing this and I completely agree with him. I mean look what happened, even if it's just the third race, they already lost the lead of the championship (granted, the whole thing came down to Max's reckless, impatient and "showing no respect" driving, timing of Safety car and whatnot). Side note, I like that Kimi finished on the podium and Vettel in 8th.

And Ricciardo, stellar job for him, another exciting driver that I like to watch on the grid. He always seize every opportunity he gets. If I was in his shoes, I'd go to Mercedes if that was an option.

 

[Tajima]

Thing is that his stale perfomance over the last couple of years has cost him a lot. Now with Vettel he is being used like a marionette. It's definitely unfair for a driver like him with consistent perfomances and superior skill calibur comparing to others.
There's absolutely no doubt about how good he is. But since he was downgraded to a second driver, team's first for him. Don't think that he is happy about that situation, tho.

He should be much more consistent on 1st corner calls and race pace. He is not happy but on the other hand there is no team in the world that wants a pissed off driver not racing 100% of his potential because team mate close the door on turn 1. Today if we take out car development from the equation i think Ferrari could win constructor with Vettel Ricciardo. With Kimi chances are very slim because there is always a moment during the race he gives up.

 

[adb]

Regarding Kimi, while I know it’s not fair, I totally understand why they are treating him like this, for years, basically ever since he came back to Ferrari, he has underperformed and failed to deliver for most of the time, so you can expect Ferrari to put all their eggs into Vettel’s basket. Especially when Ferrari isn’t dominant, so it’s unfair to compare their situation to Rosberg/Hamilton in 2014-2016. They know they can’t afford losing points to their other driver, more so if only one of them is capable of fighting for the title

 

[JC_Dude]

A lot of people seem to not realize that by the time Kimi could've pitted, he would've already been 6th with little chance to make up places. Certainly one of the motivations for leaving him out was to help Seb, but they were also just trying something a bit different, much like they did with Seb in Australia. In the end it paid off and I don't know why he was unable to pass Bottas.

To be honest, I don't see the initial call for Kimi as screwing him over. The decision to not pit him under the safety car for softs was the bigger mistake. And obviously they messed up their calculations for Seb. They should have a really good think about this, they keep hemorrhaging points with stupid mistakes like these.

 

[adb]

I don't see the initial call for Kimi as screwing him over

Nah, they used him, I think it was as clear as it gets. But to be fair to Ferrari, Mercedes has also done it before, Bottas in Spain last year springs to mind

And obviously they messed up their calculations for Seb

Agree on this one, how could they not see the power of undercut, purple sectors from Ocon I think, then Verstappen, then Hamilton...

 

[baldgye]

A lot of people seem to not realize that by the time Kimi could've pitted, he would've already been 6th with little chance to make up places. Certainly one of the motivations for leaving him out was to help Seb, but they were also just trying something a bit different, much like they did with Seb in Australia. In the end it paid off and I don't know why he was unable to pass Bottas.

To be honest, I don't see the initial call for Kimi as screwing him over. The decision to not pit him under the safety car for softs was the bigger mistake. And obviously they messed up their calculations for Seb. They should have a really good think about this, they keep hemorrhaging points with stupid mistakes like these.

That’s pretty disingenuous. Ferrari got outplayed my Merc with Vettel and should have also reacted on the same or the following lap with Kimi (Red Bull double stacked twice in the race).
There was no strategy where they just leave someone out and box them well after there tyres have gone. Only reason his ‘strategy’ paid off was because of the SC.

It’s very clear they sacrificed him to try and help Vettel, only after Vettel and Bottas passed him did he pit, long after his tyres where gone.

I don’t think they messed up, they just got out played, in part thanks to Vettel compromising Kimi so much at T1. And remember Bottas's stop was the quickest of the GP.

 

[JC_Dude]

That’s pretty disingenuous. Ferrari got outplayed my Merc with Vettel and should have also reacted on the same or the following lap with Kimi (Red Bull double stacked twice in the race).
There was no strategy where they just leave someone out and box them well after there tyres have gone. Only reason his ‘strategy’ paid off was because of the SC.

It’s very clear they sacrificed him to try and help Vettel, only after Vettel and Bottas passed him did he pit, long after his tyres where gone.

I don’t think they messed up, they just got out played, in part thanks to Vettel compromising Kimi so much at T1. And remember Bottas's stop was the quickest of the GP.

They got ouplayed with Seb and they likely wouldn't risk a double stack, so Kimi would've pitted on lap 21 at the earliest, which was 4 or so laps after Ricciardo and Hamilton pitted. By that time he was always going to come out 6th. There was no threat from behind at this point and the chance to make up places on track was very slim, so they might as well have tried something different and help the other driver in the process. And yes, it only worked because of the safety car, just like in Australia it did for Seb. Accounting for a safety car is a legitimate strategy in F1.

 

[baldgye]

They got ouplayed with Seb and they likely wouldn't risk a double stack, so Kimi would've pitted on lap 21 at the earliest, which was 4 or so laps after Ricciardo and Hamilton pitted. By that time he was always going to come out 6th. There was no threat from behind at this point and the chance to make up places on track was very slim, so they might as well have tried something different and help the other driver in the process. And yes, it only worked because of the safety car, just like in Australia it did for Seb. Accounting for a safety car is a legitimate strategy in F1.

But again, they didn't do that and trying to suggest they did is in my opinion disingenuous.

They only pitted him after Vettel and Bottas had past him in an attempt to have Kimi compromise Bottas. They didn't try something different and hope for a SC or VSC, they gave up his race on the off-chance he could compromise Bottas and allow Vettel to sneak past.

Comparing this and Australia is also disingenuous. In Australia Vettel had no pace, Kimi was faster the whole weekend. They kept out Vettel as it looked like the only option for him to get a decent result, it just so happened that the VSC fell into his lap.
In China they could have double stacked (they've done it before many times), they could have reacted and just used there better pace/what ever in order to try and move up the field. Instead they did nothing, allowed Merc to come at them with an aggressive strategy and then just gave up Kimi's race to try and help Seb.

Accounting for a SC is a legit strategy at tracks with high % of SC being called out, China isn't one of those tracks.



I don't really care how Ferrari treats its drivers, or if its a one man team, that's fine. Ferrari are the most successful team in the sport and know what they are doing. But suggest that they didn't completely sacrifice Kimi's race on the off chance it got Vettel the win isn't at all representative.

 

[TheCracker]

I don't really care how Ferrari treats its drivers, or if its a one man team, that's fine. Ferrari are the most successful team in the sport and know what they are doing. But suggest that they didn't completely sacrifice Kimi's race on the off chance it got Vettel the win isn't at all representative.

Who ever gets 2019's spare Ferrari seat - must know that it's a well paid supporting role that occasionally throws you a few scraps. Expecting anything else is just naive.

 

[baldgye]

Who ever gets 2019's spare Ferrari seat - must know that it's a well paid supporting role that occasionally throws you a few scraps. Expecting anything else is just naive.

And this is why I think it was the most damaging strategy call possible.

After the race SkyF1 UK chatted to Rosberg and asked him, if he was Riccy, where would he go? His answer was Ferrari, because Riccy knows he can beat Vettel.
But after this race, does anyone (including Riccy) think they'd ever get a fair fight with Vettel at Ferrari? Say, compared to a fair fight against Lewis at Merc?

 

[AshenGraey]

Who ever gets 2019's spare Ferrari seat - must know that it's a well paid supporting role that occasionally throws you a few scraps. Expecting anything else is just naive.

That's exactly why I said if I was in Ricciardo's shoes, I'd go to Mercedes if it was an option.

I can't talk about way back when because I did not fully get into Formula 1 until late 2012 but from what I've seen in that time, they always seem to have a #1 driver and don't really give both drivers a fair chance to fight for the title. To me, the dynamic felt the same way when it was Alonso and Massa, Alonso and Kimi and now Vettel and Kimi. I've seen comments blaming Kimi's recent performance for how he is being treated and I don't think that's the case at all. If it was such an issue why not let him go and hire another driver...I mean it's already 4 season since he's been back at Ferrari....no, I think they want someone with solid skills, enough to be consistent with bringing in points but not necessarily to challenge their #1 driver for the championship title.

 

[adb]

That's exactly why I said if I was in Ricciardo's shoes, I'd go to Mercedes if it was an option.

IMO, it's not that simple. While Mercedes allowed Rosberg and Hamilton to race, they were dominant in those years. It's hard to see what exactly is Mercedes' racing policy now when they are not as dominant as they were back then. Last year, Bottas and Hamilton never really went for the same piece of tarmac, on few Hamilton's off weekends Bottas did well, but they never really had to race each other, but they made Bottas give up track position and also used him to slow down Vettel, so I wouldn't be so sure they would allow Ricciardo to race Hamilton, especially if Dan doesn't lead him in WDC

 

[baldgye]

IMO, it's not that simple. While Mercedes allowed Rosberg and Hamilton to race, they were dominant in those years. It's hard to see what exactly is Mercedes' racing policy now when they are not as dominant as they were back then. Last year, Bottas and Hamilton never really went for the same piece of tarmac, on few Hamilton's off weekends Bottas did well, but they never really had to race each other, but they made Bottas give up track position and also used him to slow down Vettel, so I wouldn't be so sure they would allow Ricciardo to race Hamilton, especially if Dan doesn't lead him in WDC

What do you mean they made Bottas give up track position last year?
If I remember correctly at Hungry he swapped places with Lewis as he was making no progress against Kimi, this was done with the proviso that Lewis give the position back if he couldn't get past. Lewis then let Bottas back through on the last lap. Which was risky as at that point in the championship it looked like Vettel was on track to getting his 5th WDC...

 

[Jimlaad43]

What do you mean they made Bottas give up track position last year?
If I remember correctly at Hungry he swapped places with Lewis as he was making no progress against Kimi, this was done with the proviso that Lewis give the position back if he couldn't get past. Lewis then let Bottas back through on the last lap. Which was risky as at that point in the championship it looked like Vettel was on track to getting his 5th WDC...

Bahrain

 

[baldgye]

Bahrain

Wasn't that to allow Lewis to go for the win rather than simply gifting him one position?
Lewis finished some 15 seconds ahead of Bottas and was faster than him when they made the switch, any team would have done the same.

I'll admit I had forgotten about that race entirely, but looking back at it, it makes sense and seems fair. Lewis would have probably only battled for the position with Bottas anyway, loosing them both time and Bottas only finished 2 seconds ahead of 4th place...

 

[Liquid]

Rosberg had 'it'. Bottas isn't close to being a driver able to catch Hamilton even if he wasn't a designated number two driver in all but name.

With Ferrari, there have been numerous occasions where they've had two or more top drivers; Hawthorn, Collins & Musso (1956-58), Hill & von Trips (1960-61), Surtees & Bandini (1964-65), Lauda & Reutemann (1976-77), Scheckter & Villeneuve (1979-81), Pironi & Villeneuve (1982), Tambay & Arnoux (1983-84), Prost & Mansell (1990), Berger & Alesi (1993-95), Räikkönen & Massa (2008-09).

I don't necessarily think it's fair to levy the favouritism accusation against them. It's not without merit, I won't deny that, but I sometimes feel that it's only because the pairings of Schumacher & Irvine and Schumacher & Barrichello were so obvious and over a long period of time (9 seasons 1996-2005) that it sticks in a lot of people's minds. In fact, Ferrari's refusal to commit to a driver arguably cost them in 1957 and 1983.

Certainly, Vettel is the favoured child at the Scuderia at the moment but I don't see why, unless there is a Sebastion Veto, Daniel Ricciardo couldn't do well there given the chance.

 

[daan]

Rosberg had 'it'. Bottas isn't close to being a driver able to catch Hamilton even if he wasn't a designated number two driver in all but name.

Bottas of the last 2 races says hi.

 

[Liquid]

Bottas of the last 2 races says hi.

Perhaps. I'm more surprised at Hamilton than impressed with Bottas but maybe I'm being too harsh. It's just refreshing to not see a Mercedes-Benz run away with it for a change.

 

[adb]

What do you mean they made Bottas give up track position last year?
If I remember correctly at Hungry he swapped places with Lewis as he was making no progress against Kimi, this was done with the proviso that Lewis give the position back if he couldn't get past. Lewis then let Bottas back through on the last lap. Which was risky as at that point in the championship it looked like Vettel was on track to getting his 5th WDC...

As was already said, I meant Bahrain. But even if we forget recent history, whether it shows they do allow or they don't allow racing, I think that neither of top 3 teams will have so much advantage next year, that they will allow their drivers race wheel to wheel. RBR and Mercedes have both learned how easily it can all go wrong, and Ferrari is Ferrari. All of those 3 teams will give priority to driver highest in championship, unless they dominate. But Ferrari might not want to annoy Seb, and Mercedes... while Lewis often says he wants to go up against the very best, I'm not sure he really means that.

 

[Dotini]

Lewis often says he wants to go up against the very best, I'm not sure he really means that.

Well, if I'm taking him literally, I guess it means he wants to race using a Renault engine.

 

[Peter.]

I don't think Bottas is bad enough that Mercedes have a problem with him, even though he's pretty far away from what Rosberg was. Mercedes willl just have to adapt and take up a structure more close to what we know Ferrari to have.

If Kimi calls it quits I don't see that big of an issue with Vettel and Ricciardo. Vettel seemed to quietly perform at a relatively mediocre level, mostly ignoring the fact that Ricciardo was outperforming him in every aspect. There was no animosity between the two, in the way that there was between him and Webber, or say, Alonso and Hamilton. Vettel might feel he has the team already in his favour and won't object, while Ricciardo is fearless and will take the challenge I'm sure.

But for Ricciardo, he might be better off committing to Red Bull for now. Max is still far too rough around the edges to build a team around, so he has every opportunity to make that team his team if he continues to be the more mature driver on and off the track.

 

[baldgye]

I don't think Bottas is bad enough that Mercedes have a problem with him, even though he's pretty far away from what Rosberg was. Mercedes willl just have to adapt and take up a structure more close to what we know Ferrari to have.

If Kimi calls it quits I don't see that big of an issue with Vettel and Ricciardo. Vettel seemed to quietly perform at a relatively mediocre level, mostly ignoring the fact that Ricciardo was outperforming him in every aspect. There was no animosity between the two, in the way that there was between him and Webber, or say, Alonso and Hamilton. Vettel might feel he has the team already in his favour and won't object, while Ricciardo is fearless and will take the challenge I'm sure.

But for Ricciardo, he might be better off committing to Red Bull for now. Max is still far too rough around the edges to build a team around, so he has every opportunity to make that team his team if he continues to be the more mature driver on and off the track.

Bottas is doing an alright job, but if Riccy had been in that car, he would probably have won the race, which is a lot of points in the constructors championship, which at the end of the day, is what Mercedes care about.
Riccy could be looking at that and thinking; "well if I was in that car and in that position, I'd have one win, where-as if I was at Ferrari, I wouldn't"

I don't think staying at Red Bull is a good move, next year looks likely to be a Honda engine, which is on balance, worse than the Renault, or a Renault engine, which is, on balance, worse than the works Ferrari and works Mercedes. If I was Riccy I'd want to step up, rather than languish while Max get's his act together.


I think the best move would be Riccy to Mercedes, Bottas to Ferrari. Ferrari get a clear number 2 and Riccy can push like mad against the best in the sport. Mercedes get two of the best drivers they can, for the WCC and probably have a good shout at the WDC too.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Bottas is doing an alright job, but if Riccy had been in that car, he would probably have won the race, which is a lot of points in the constructors championship, which at the end of the day, is what Mercedes care about.
Riccy could be looking at that and thinking; "well if I was in that car and in that position, I'd have one win, where-as if I was at Ferrari, I wouldn't"

I don't think staying at Red Bull is a good move, next year looks likely to be a Honda engine, which is on balance, worse than the Renault, or a Renault engine, which is, on balance, worse than the works Ferrari and works Mercedes. If I was Riccy I'd want to step up, rather than languish while Max get's his act together.


I think the best move would be Riccy to Mercedes, Bottas to Ferrari. Ferrari get a clear number 2 and Riccy can push like mad against the best in the sport. Mercedes get two of the best drivers they can, for the WCC and probably have a good shout at the WDC too.

Not sure if your basing this on Bahrain or China. If it's China then no at the end of the day both Ferrari and Mercedes were going to lose (unless they pitted Hamilton or Kimi in time) because strategy weighed in favor for RBR. I don't believe for a moment that one of the most tested tires so far this season wasn't known to have the potential to hold up. SC came out at a very nice critical time after the midway making it to me an obvious call for those with the ability to make that change. Merc and Ferrari at that point didn't have much chance.

Also how is the Honda Engine worse? It's done miles better than it has in 3 season at a group that by all thoughts was probably as much to play with the issues they saw as the engine manufacture and possibly more. I don't get why McLaren is seen as the victim to the McHonda fiasco by some, and this "popular" notion of Honda isn't good is still touted. I don't think the Honda is worse than the Renault, I think the Toro Rosso isn't fully understood with it's new power unit and thus we see the so far variation in performance. Long tracks don't suit it, more brake and go tracks do. Mean it might do well as venues like Baku and Monaco. However, this doesn't mean that you put that engine in the RBR and it will have the same issues, in fact it may improve.

Honda is essentially still trying to figure out things because of three bad years, so they may be on a more reliability side of things and not pushing the power envelope yet. If they can figure it out this year, I'd say Red Bull would be a wonderful prospect for Danny to stay at because it's a team his invested with and will be have a more works effort if they pick up the Honda as opposed to the current customer they are. Renault are improving and and at the rate they're going they may very well be a challenge to RBR next year. Ferrari and Merc are both good switches but one has to wonder if Danny is shooting himself in the foot going to Ferrari. For example it's only the third race of the season, and instead of keeping Kimi in contention of a win, they compromise him to help Vettel. I don't think Danny would want to join that, and I'm pretty sure he made comment about it post GP.
Mercedes on the other hand would be the logical choice, Ham and him got on well and really I think Lewis needs someone that can push him, at every GP. Bottas to me seems incapable of doing that.

However, Merc will always be in WDC contention even if Bottas stays, because strategy wise they're one of the best if not the best team. Two Bottas is a pair of safe hands and seems to bring the car home in decent points be it top 3 to 5. Ferrari on the other hand seems to always be more about winning the WDC than WCC. Again why would a driver want to join that unless they were assured number one status?

 

[baldgye]

Not sure if your basing this on Bahrain or China. If it's China then no at the end of the day both Ferrari and Mercedes were going to lose (unless they pitted Hamilton or Kimi in time) because strategy weighed in favor for RBR. I don't believe for a moment that one of the most tested tires so far this season wasn't known to have the potential to hold up. SC came out at a very nice critical time after the midway making it to me an obvious call for those with the ability to make that change. Merc and Ferrari at that point didn't have much chance.

Also how is the Honda Engine worse? It's done miles better than it has in 3 season at a group that by all thoughts was probably as much to play with the issues they saw as the engine manufacture and possibly more. I don't get why McLaren is seen as the victim to the McHonda fiasco by some, and this "popular" notion of Honda isn't good is still touted. I don't think the Honda is worse than the Renault, I think the Toro Rosso isn't fully understood with it's new power unit and thus we see the so far variation in performance. Long tracks don't suit it, more brake and go tracks do. Mean it might do well as venues like Baku and Monaco. However, this doesn't mean that you put that engine in the RBR and it will have the same issues, in fact it may improve.

Honda is essentially still trying to figure out things because of three bad years, so they may be on a more reliability side of things and not pushing the power envelope yet. If they can figure it out this year, I'd say Red Bull would be a wonderful prospect for Danny to stay at because it's a team his invested with and will be have a more works effort if they pick up the Honda as opposed to the current customer they are. Renault are improving and and at the rate they're going they may very well be a challenge to RBR next year. Ferrari and Merc are both good switches but one has to wonder if Danny is shooting himself in the foot going to Ferrari. For example it's only the third race of the season, and instead of keeping Kimi in contention of a win, they compromise him to help Vettel. I don't think Danny would want to join that, and I'm pretty sure he made comment about it post GP.
Mercedes on the other hand would be the logical choice, Ham and him got on well and really I think Lewis needs someone that can push him, at every GP. Bottas to me seems incapable of doing that.

However, Merc will always be in WDC contention even if Bottas stays, because strategy wise they're one of the best if not the best team. Two Bottas is a pair of safe hands and seems to bring the car home in decent points be it top 3 to 5. Ferrari on the other hand seems to always be more about winning the WDC than WCC. Again why would a driver want to join that unless they were assured number one status?

Sorry, I meant at Bahrain. Riccy would have gone into T1 and (probably) won the race.

I wasn't have a go at Honda, and I agree if anything they've come away from Mclaren better off. But the Honda engine package, still isn't as good as the Merc, Ferrari or Renault.
I personally can't see Honda next year challenging for the title, which is what Riccy has said he wants to do. I also don't think that Red Bull is 'his team' so to speak, Max is very much the wonder kid and going forward a relationship that Mark and Vettel had, could develop.

I agree that Merc seems the better fit, not only for two drivers to race, but for his personality. Ferrari doesn't leave you much space to be 'open' shall we say, like Mercedes do. Something Lewis has made a point of mentioning in interviews on his switch from Mclaren to Mercedes.



Bottas is a good driver, but teams want the best they can get, at Bahrain and Australia plus a few races last year Bottas didn't get the maximum points he could have for the team, in a close year like it's looking like, those two results could mean a lot.
IMO if Riccy was in that Mercedes at the moment, he'd have a win and two podiums, leading the championship...

 

[Famine]

Also how is the Honda Engine worse? It's done miles better than it has in 3 season at a group that by all thoughts was probably as much to play with the issues they saw as the engine manufacture and possibly more.

Really?

2018 Toro Rosso-Honda qualification: 6, 11, 15, 16, 17, 20; mean 14.2
2018 Toro Rosso-Honda finishes: 4, 15, 17, 18, 20, DNF (18); mean 15.3

2017 Toro Rosso-Renault qualification to race 3: 8, 9, 9, 11, 11, 16; mean 10.7
2017 Toro Rosso-Renault finishes to race 3: 7, 8, 9, 12, DNF (16), DNF (17) ; mean 11.5

2018 McLaren-Renault qualification: 11, 12, 13, 13, 14, 14; mean 12.8
2018 McLaren-Renault finishes: 5, 7, 7, 8, 9, 13; mean 8.2

2017 McLaren-Honda qualification to race 3: 13, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18; mean 15.3
2017 McLaren-Honda finishes to race 3: 13, 14, DNF (14), DNF (16), DNF (18), DNF (20); mean 15.8

Toro Rosso-Honda 2018 points: 12
Toro Rosso-Renault 2017 points to race 3: 12
McLaren-Renault 2018 points: 28
McLaren-Honda 2017 points to race 3: 0

Toro Rosso-Honda 2018 PU used: Gasly 2, Hartley 2
Toro Rosso-Renault 2017 PU used to race 3: Kvyat 2, Sainz 3
McLaren-Renault 2018 PU used: Alonso 1, Vandoorne 1
McLaren-Honda 2017 PU used to race 3: Alonso 2, Vandoorne 3

To me it looks like:
Toro Rosso is qualifying and finishing worse by three-to-four positions each race with the Honda than the Renault.
McLaren is qualifying by two positions and finishing by seven positions better with the Renault than the Honda.

Honda is qualifying one position better and finishing half a position better with Toro Rosso than with McLaren.
Renault is qualifying two positions worse, but finishing three positions better with McLaren than with Toro Rosso.

Toro Rosso is replacing power units no less often with Honda than Renault.
McLaren is replacing power units far less often with Renault than Honda - it's actually not replaced any at all yet.


It looks like Honda has made a small step with Toro Rosso*, but it's certainly not "miles" better. The reverse is demonstrably not true either - Toro Rosso has gone backwards, rather alarmingly, in all aspects other than points which remains the same.

McLaren, meanwhile, is better off in all aspects and by a clear margin. And as 2018 requires engines to last 30% longer than in 2017, that fact that Honda is showing zero reliability improvement is a bit of a sod for Toro Rosso.

*And that's compared to the start-of-2017 spec engine. Compared to the end-of-2017 spec engine, Toro Rosso-Honda is qualifying two places lower and finishing four places lower than McLaren-Honda.

 

[mustafur]

The amount of times Ricciardo mentioned how we wants to compare himself to Hamilton makes it look like the likely choice he will make, it might be early but I think staying with Redbull isn't the best choice short and long term.

 

[TonyJZX]

I watched this on delayed telecast via Uncle Tor and yeah... this race sucked until that SC that allowed RBR to pit and get fresh softs.

Then it was the VER clown show and RIC channelling brother from another mother WEB in what is probably a master class on how motor racing should go.

Its also a great day when Mercedes and Ferrari get it in the ear. I'm not a VET fan but yeah he got done hard there.

I'm of the opinion RBR is still the best choice for RIC. Mercedes feels like not a good fit with HAM.

Ferrari isnt a competitive as RBR however I feel RIC would fit in well being of Italian origin and would probably charge up the team.

Nice to see ALO take someone for once and I reckon in a just world McLaren would be a competitive team for RIC to land...

 

[Peter.]

Bottas is doing an alright job, but if Riccy had been in that car, he would probably have won the race, which is a lot of points in the constructors championship, which at the end of the day, is what Mercedes care about.
Riccy could be looking at that and thinking; "well if I was in that car and in that position, I'd have one win, where-as if I was at Ferrari, I wouldn't"

I don't think staying at Red Bull is a good move, next year looks likely to be a Honda engine, which is on balance, worse than the Renault, or a Renault engine, which is, on balance, worse than the works Ferrari and works Mercedes. If I was Riccy I'd want to step up, rather than languish while Max get's his act together.


I think the best move would be Riccy to Mercedes, Bottas to Ferrari. Ferrari get a clear number 2 and Riccy can push like mad against the best in the sport. Mercedes get two of the best drivers they can, for the WCC and probably have a good shout at the WDC too.

I don't think engines should be the determinant of what Ricciardo does. The formula has been less and less determined by the best engine every year since 2014, and it will continue that way. We are already at a point where the Merc and Ferrari are pretty equal, or at least the difference is almost negligible. Renault aren't too bad either, Ricciardo and Max have no problem overtaking either engine on the straights if they get a good run.

Ricciardo staying at Red Bull, at least for another season, isn't a bad idea, with the aforementioned engine gap growing smaller every year. Also with this guy as his teammate, it's only a matter of time before Horner and co. lose patience.

Side note, Max crashes a lot, blames himself never, calls others childish though, funny enough.

I will admit the Mercedes move makes more sense, though, as it benefits them, and himself, as they are more willing to let him compete with Hamilton than Ferrari probably would be with Vettel. It just requires Mercedes to be unsatisfied with Bottas enough to want him gone, which seems unlikely as they already had no problem winning a constructors title under him.

 

[baldgye]

I don't think engines should be the determinant of what Ricciardo does. The formula has been less and less determined by the best engine every year since 2014, and it will continue that way. We are already at a point where the Merc and Ferrari are pretty equal, or at least the difference is almost negligible. Renault aren't too bad either, Ricciardo and Max have no problem overtaking either engine on the straights if they get a good run.

Ricciardo staying at Red Bull, at least for another season, isn't a bad idea, with the aforementioned engine gap growing smaller every year. Also with this guy as his teammate, it's only a matter of time before Horner and co. lose patience.

Side note, Max crashes a lot, blames himself never, calls others childish though, funny enough.

I will admit the Mercedes move makes more sense, though, as it benefits them, and himself, as they are more willing to let him compete with Hamilton than Ferrari probably would be with Vettel. It just requires Mercedes to be unsatisfied with Bottas enough to want him gone, which seems unlikely as they already had no problem winning a constructors title under him.

It's not purely engines though is it, and while engines have been less important since 2014, they still play a key role. Red Bull are the third best car at the moment and they where loosing out on the back straight at China. If you put a Merc or Ferrari engine in the RB I think it's fair to say it would be faster. A Honda engine would, probably be at best a side step in terms of performance and a back step worst case. Moving to Ferrari or Merc would be a step forward.

Regarding Max; He actually admitted blame and apologised to Seb right after the race before the press-pit.
It's part of growing, in order to actually be the best driver you can be you need to cross the line some times. Maybe it wont be this season, but he'll reign it in and then be mighty.
He's faster than Riccy and has made just as good moves in his previous seasons. Soon as he gets that tied up to a fast and reliable car, he'll be mega. Ref Mexico in that video with Vettel; IMO he did exactly the right thing and played that whole incident out perfectly.

There was actually similar discussion about Lewis after 2010 and some of his moves, and look at him now. People are easy to over-react about these things, if he improves, like Lewis (and so many others before him), this will be forgotten. If he fails to improve, he'll be dropped.