2018 Holden Commodore(ZB)
- Thread starter 05XR8
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The ability for Zeta to get any widespread release in its sedan form in North America largely passed when GM ran out of money to actually finish developing the initially planned North American versions in 2004. It's a miracle that the Camaro was even built, but a good portion of that probably has to do with how much egg GM got on their face with the retro Mustang basically revitalizing a market that GM had largely just ceded to Ford. After the G8 flopped and gas prices went crazy and the entire company went banktrupt, the remaining efforts within the company to replace at least some of the cars it was originally supposed to replace (the DTS and Impala and supposedly the Lucerne) were scuttled as well; and it's hard to claim it wasn't for good reason.
GM was much wiser to not force the issue like they had tried to disastrous effect when the W-Body debuted in 1988. It meant the W and G Body were around a good while longer than originally intended even by GM standards, but the 14th floor was undoubtedly desperate to find profit somewhere at that point anyway.
GM was much wiser to not force the issue like they had tried to disastrous effect when the W-Body debuted in 1988. It meant the W and G Body were around a good while longer than originally intended even by GM standards, but the 14th floor was undoubtedly desperate to find profit somewhere at that point anyway.
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GM had been trying for some time to position Pontiac as the performance arm of the company. (Yet the Camaro and Corvette are Chevrolet-go figure) makes sense from a packaging standpoint, each marque being a specific design ethos. But didn't from the standpoint of the buying public. Thus Pontiac was redundant in the face of performance Chevrolet models and Cadillac becoming 'performance luxury'.
But there's a reason GM failed so hard they had to file Chapter 11, and it ain't from sound business decisions. Hah
@Tornado
Your wording made it sound like you were implying the G8 failed before the company went bankrupt. Just clarifying.
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- SpacedustDaddy
The Caprice over here, were long wheelbase and fitted with V6 & V8. Plus they were fitted with TV screens in the headrest. Would have been a good car vs the 300C.
Performance wise, I do wonder if anything will come of the 888/Red Bull/Holden Racing Team alliance. Renault sold a Red Bull stickered Megane RS. Holden doing the same with the Supercar Championship crests on the doors would be a start.
Any engine gains made by 888 could translate to the road car.
Performance wise, I do wonder if anything will come of the 888/Red Bull/Holden Racing Team alliance. Renault sold a Red Bull stickered Megane RS. Holden doing the same with the Supercar Championship crests on the doors would be a start.
Any engine gains made by 888 could translate to the road car.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
There are a lot of assumptions to be made about GM and their tiers of product at the time. A full size, rear drive, semi-luxury sedan available at Chevrolet would have stepped over and through a lot of products that were on the table from Pontiac, Buick, Saab, and Cadillac. A cheap option like that would have been great to take on cars like the Dodge Charger and 300C, but it would have eaten away a lot of potential for the already tepid sales of the Sigma-based Cadillacs. Even then, it ignores the fact that a rear drive Impala and Caprice likely would have been a good bit more expensive than the outgoing front drive models, and that would have only expedited the slowing sales for their large car market.
- 50,779
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- SpacedustDaddy
No doubt. When the 300C came out, Chevy was in limbo. A Commodore Calais V6 would have made for a good fleet vehicle to replace the fwd Impalas.
V8 models in 2000, would have transitioned the Catera as well.
The Lincoln LSV8 was coming out then as well. The time was ripe as I think Infiniti had the M45 V8 dropping in 2001(?). Either branding an HSV Grange(top of the line performance Caprice) with a Cadillac crest and/or Chevy/Buick/Pontiac badges, would have helped the whole of GM. In my opinion.
GM managed to undercut the G8 in the states. It was under $30k for a performance V8 where it was a $45kAUD car is Oz. I feel, changing front clips and badging for the VE, in the USA, would have changed things around.
Edit: Just adding, if this NG is making its way to the USA as a Buick, what's a reasonable price for a top spec model?
V8 models in 2000, would have transitioned the Catera as well.
The Lincoln LSV8 was coming out then as well. The time was ripe as I think Infiniti had the M45 V8 dropping in 2001(?). Either branding an HSV Grange(top of the line performance Caprice) with a Cadillac crest and/or Chevy/Buick/Pontiac badges, would have helped the whole of GM. In my opinion.
GM managed to undercut the G8 in the states. It was under $30k for a performance V8 where it was a $45kAUD car is Oz. I feel, changing front clips and badging for the VE, in the USA, would have changed things around.
Edit: Just adding, if this NG is making its way to the USA as a Buick, what's a reasonable price for a top spec model?
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- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Top of the line Regal in the US is the GS AWD, which starts at $37k. I believe the front-drive version starts just under $35k. Depending on how upmarket the model is, I doubt it would exceed $40k in the US to start. The bread and butter models will probably continue to kick off just under $30k, likely with a pretty standard four-pot and front-drive.
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- SpacedustDaddy
Fair enough.
The Commodore is competing with any make you can think of over here. It's good that the hatch and wagons are available. Too much competition in the under $60k sedan segment.
I doubt Holden will pull any Subaru Outback(I think the Liberty is discontinued) owners. May gather euro car owners, being the Insignia's origin in Germany. Toyota owners can be ruled out(unless the base sedan is economical and service pricing comes into it as well).
I'd love to see the numbers with faults per 100. I do hope it's a good product. I think the aftermarket may take well to it.
The Commodore is competing with any make you can think of over here. It's good that the hatch and wagons are available. Too much competition in the under $60k sedan segment.
I doubt Holden will pull any Subaru Outback(I think the Liberty is discontinued) owners. May gather euro car owners, being the Insignia's origin in Germany. Toyota owners can be ruled out(unless the base sedan is economical and service pricing comes into it as well).
I'd love to see the numbers with faults per 100. I do hope it's a good product. I think the aftermarket may take well to it.
Well can't forget exchange rates. And on the road taxes as well. In early 2008 the exchange rate was roughly .80 AUD for every $1 USD. Basic maths puts 45k in AUD to around 35k USD. Which is right about what the V8 model went for in America. Of course the economy tanked about 4 months before the G8 went on sale, so exchange rates went wild at that time.
- 50,779
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- SpacedustDaddy
In regards to vehicle designation
https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/1612/2018-holden-commodore-under-the-skin
https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/1612/2018-holden-commodore-under-the-skin
I'm a Ford boy myself too. Doesn't mean I'd kick a V8 Holden out of bed. Guess I'm just a slut, hah.
The death of the Australian auto industry is half the fault of the buying public more concerned with saving a few dollars a year on petrol and insurance than saving their fellow Australian's jobs, and half the fault of corporate greed more concerned with saving a tenner on every car at the expense of several thousand people's livelihoods.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Here in the US, the Regal is usually marked quite well for build quality and reliability. Early models were German made, later ones shifted production to Canada - at least for the North American market. I'd be curious to know where the build numbers end up shifting for your Commodore, as the plants that currently build variants of the Insignia are in Germany, China, and Canada. If they end up being Chinese, I wouldn't worry much. The new Buick Envision is assembled and shipped to the US from China, and quality standards have been far beyond what we were expecting.
Weird for me is how they still have the previous-generation Malibu on sale at Holden, right alongside the Insignia. I'd assume both of those models are getting the axe in favor of the new Commodore, then?
Pete05
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- Melbourne, Australia
I can assure you they definitely weren't badged as Holdens.
Maybe one of the larger Holden dealers jumped on board the Opel experiment & sold the Opel range alongside the Holdens?
Surely the dealer would've had to have had some 'Opel' signage but it was lost in all the Holden garb?
I do know Holden weren't exactly thrilled with their German cousin crashing the party so to speak & can't imagine any Holden dealer being given permission to sell the Opel range from a Holden yard.
Either way, Opel didn't sell enough cars & the pin was pulled.
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- mustafur
No, Holden started Selling all the Opels as Holdens in the last few years.
https://www.carsales.com.au/demo/details/Holden-Insignia-2015/AGC-AD-18005218/?Cr=0
Pete05
Premium
- 7,080
- Melbourne, Australia
This would've been post Opel closing the dealers for sure.
After all, what to do with RHD Opels.
I have to admit, everytime I've seen an Insignia on the road, I haven't zoomed in on the badges as I know from the design what I'm looking at. That's about to change.
Thanks for clearing that up @mustafur 👍
- 22,551
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- HamiltonMP427
How exactly did they shaft people, if the sales aren't enough and the money to keep the lights on isn't there, why eat into sales of successful GM markets? I say if the marketing in Australia wasn't so old world as far as the big domestics go, they'd have shifted thought and made cars that were much smaller and efficient and then produced smaller units of the cars that go racing. But Holden and Ford didn't do that and let's be clear these two weren't the only ones losing on sales, Toyota and others had left Australia manufacturing too. So clearly it would be seen as a domestic problem and not something to pin on manufactures.
I don't know Australian laws, but I'd look there to see why manufactures packed up and said they'll import cars in. Cause sales only tell so much of the story.
The problem is. For it to have been profitable enough, it would've had to have sold close to 200,000 or so cars a year. This is for a car only sold in large numbers in Australia and New Zealand. That would make it by a wide margin the highest selling car in the country. That would mean 12% of the country would have to drive a Commodore.
Lest you forget, the Commodore is the best selling executive car in Australia. Outselling BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and everything else in the class. It was a sales success by all measure, and was killed simply because it was numerically impossible to sell enough cars in Australia alone.
To answer your question on how the shafted people, the answer is obvious. Rather than evolve it into a car that could be sold worldwide so that it could meet the sales numbers, they thought it better to just cancel it.
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- HamiltonMP427
So what if it's the best selling exec car. If the car isn't bought by a ton to begin with and there is no rich history for German and other Euros in the nation. Of course the domestics will outsell. The problem is the cars manufacturing ate into sells and once again (which you fail to acknowledge) wasn't the only group to do this. Even cheaper manufactured cars from Toyota have ceased before Ford and Holden. Realistically the numbers needed and the direction of the market are all reasons why the car is gone. You seem to want it to stay in manufacturing despite all of that, just to say it's Australian made?
Oh so spend even more money, and potentially risk money for other manufactures plants across the globe, that makes sense. I knew Nationalism was big there but wow this is a new level.
Also the Zeta platform and this car in general as talked about through the zeta thread show the car as global mark.
So lemme rephrase your first comment. Who cares if it sold well? It wasn't a historical brand (except it is) so it was a failure. What kinda logic is that?
What -sales- did it eat into? are you implying that GM sold another car under the Holden name in arguably the same category and price? The only thing close was the Insignia (which the Commodore outsold, mind you)
Your second comment proves my point further. Even Toyota had to stop selling locally made and Australia-only models simply because it was impossible to sell enough to make money. The Aurion, it was. Sold reasonably well, but only sold in Oz and NZ.
Zeta was/is a global platform. But the Zeta platform sold in America (where it was a sales success) was built in Canada. The Australian built ones were only sold on a limited basis in the Middle East (as Chevrolet) and China (as Buick). It sells reasonably well in the ME, given the small market for expensive cars. The one in China is assembled in China out of Australian made components.
The market isn't gone, as shown by the fact Commodore sales have been fairly static around 25-30 thousand cars a year for the past decade.
And how well does the Dodge Charger sell in America? 90 thousand a year? Yeah, no market for V8 rear-drive saloons.
Your whole argument seems to be "it's a failure and you can't convince me otherwise, regardless of facts or statistics"
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- SpacedustDaddy
Now, even though the Commodore bows out this year, it still sold in the top 10.
http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...g/news-story/af4de2d0090baa6c2a0ce24aa0e28729
Thing is, I don't see any other gas-guzzlers on this list. Once again, why buy a V8(unless it's a Land Cruiser) to tow your caravan, when a deisel ute can do that and carry the family, with all the amemities a wagon has?
http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...g/news-story/af4de2d0090baa6c2a0ce24aa0e28729
