What the Commodore needed more than anything was a revised engine lineup. A TD4 as the base, a turbo 4 replacing the 6. And the V8 at the top. The biggest sales losses I can guarantee came from the fact buyers were forced into thirsty petrol models when all the competitors had a diesel option.
2018 Holden Commodore(ZB)
- Thread starter 05XR8
- 203 comments
- 16,919 views
No, but selling in other countries would've. GM has a rich history of large family saloons all around the world. Myriad of Chevrolets, Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Cadillacs in the Americas. Vauxhall Victor and Carlton in the U.K. Opel Commodore, Rekord, Omega, and Senator (from which the original Aussie Commodore comes from) in mainland Europe.
It would've been a simple matter of selling it in those countries with historical names and proper engine choices.
- 51,321
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
The Falcon originated in North America. Then, they dropped it. I've long felt GM and Ford, should have run the Commodore and Falcon alongside the Camaro and Mustang, respectively. Would have been a win for everyone involved.
Sadly, it didn't happen, but the Australian people didn't speak up in time and FordAU & GMH weren't moving with the market quick enough.
Sadly, it didn't happen, but the Australian people didn't speak up in time and FordAU & GMH weren't moving with the market quick enough.
That's how I feel too. Falcon as the 4 door/estate/utility brother to the Mustang. Priced similarly, marketed similarly. Positioned as the 'Mustang for the person with a family'. And the Commodore (Caprice in USA) the same way.
Could've even put the GT350 suspension and engine in the Falcon and call it the GTHO. Make it specifically to be the fastest 4 door at the Nürburgring.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Didn't say that, what I said is people up in arms, are clinging to nostalgia. Get over it. If it means wishing ill upon those who actually do still work in the manufacturing of this car and others just cause you have some warped trite about GM, Ford, Toyota, and other manufactures leaving Australia, then once again get over it. It's fine having a sensible logical conversation on the state of affairs in this area, but if it's knee jerk reactions, don't bother.
Slow down and read, I said sales would potentially eat into other markets just to keep the manufacturing industry there. I already suggested what should have happened but Holden didn't do that, so are you going to seriously blame GM global or Holden execs?
Which is why I bring it up, selling reasonably well for a pool that is hardly sizable to the sales needed to meet an actual return profit is the issue. If your choice of measure is simply based on exec sales, then you've already ignored the issue. IT's not about exec cars selling at the top of that category, it's overall sales of cars in general. If Hyundai is selling 4 or 5 cars for every Holden exec...then it becomes apparent.
Okay so we agree it's a global make, and are you saying it was only a success in the U.S.?
What the heck are you talking about? How does Dodge Charger sales in America, have anything to do with sales in Australia for V8 sedans? If it's so static why is there downturn in sales not just for Holden's but the entire market.
I know I'll use a picture to help out
Holden Commodore RED
(sedan and wagon)
Ford Falcon BLUE
(sedan and wagon)
Toyota Camry/
Avalon/Aurion (V6) GREEN
Other
Total large car
segment
The Black is the entire exec/large car market in Australia
No my argument is, that nostalgia ridden people are up in arms over a car that hasn't even his markets, cause it's not traditional. The myopic outlook is my problem first off. Second is then when smaller numbers make claims like you, and then ignore actual stats or manipulate them to benefit their argument in a contrived way. I've given you a graph that shows the decline in sales. A decline that many in Australia say exists, and this is just 2012, from then to now sales dropped another 4000 FY.
Didn't say that, what I said is people up in arms, are clinging to nostalgia. Get over it. If it means wishing ill upon those who actually do still work in the manufacturing of this car and others just cause you have some warped trite about GM, Ford, Toyota, and other manufactures leaving Australia, then once again get over it. It's fine having a sensible logical conversation on the state of affairs in this area, but if it's knee jerk reactions, don't bother.
Slow down and read, I said sales would potentially eat into other markets just to keep the manufacturing industry there. I already suggested what should have happened but Holden didn't do that, so are you going to seriously blame GM global or Holden execs?
Which is why I bring it up, selling reasonably well for a pool that is hardly sizable to the sales needed to meet an actual return profit is the issue. If your choice of measure is simply based on exec sales, then you've already ignored the issue. IT's not about exec cars selling at the top of that category, it's overall sales of cars in general. If Hyundai is selling 4 or 5 cars for every Holden exec...then it becomes apparent.
Okay so we agree it's a global make, and are you saying it was only a success in the U.S.?
What the heck are you talking about? How does Dodge Charger sales in America, have anything to do with sales in Australia for V8 sedans? If it's so static why is there downturn in sales not just for Holden's but the entire market.
I know I'll use a picture to help out
Holden Commodore RED
(sedan and wagon)
Ford Falcon BLUE
(sedan and wagon)
Toyota Camry/
Avalon/Aurion (V6) GREEN
Other
Total large car
segment
The Black is the entire exec/large car market in Australia
No my argument is, that nostalgia ridden people are up in arms over a car that hasn't even his markets, cause it's not traditional. The myopic outlook is my problem first off. Second is then when smaller numbers make claims like you, and then ignore actual stats or manipulate them to benefit their argument in a contrived way. I've given you a graph that shows the decline in sales. A decline that many in Australia say exists, and this is just 2012, from then to now sales dropped another 4000 FY.
Actually, it's exactly what you said. "Who cares if it sold well?" And I quote.
Perhaps you should heed your own advice. What other markets?
Executive cars are going to sell less than hatchbacks. You are aware of this, right? Whether a car is or is not a sales success is based on other cars in the same class, not on cars in another class. But by your logic, Ferraris are an absolute failure because Fiat Pandas outsell them 10 to 1.
You don't seem to understand what 'success' is. What numbers qualify as success varies from country to country because *gasp* different nations have different population numbers. America has roughly 10x the population of Australia. So what would be considered successful market share in Oz would be a market flop in the USA.
You said there was no market for V8 saloons. I was implying there is a market for them, especially in America. Where the Commodore could be sold successfully. I wasn't clear on that, so I apologise.
Your graph further proves my point. The Commodore is consistently nearly half of all executive car sales. I said in the last decade. Look at the numbers, stayed between roughly 50 and 30 thousand. It isn't exactly the same, but fairly close. Especially relative to sales of other cars. And need you forget 2007-2009? Of course sales are going to be down. Sales were down across the board in every country.
So again, it is a success relative to everything else in that market segment. Again, do not forget. Best selling car in the segment. To say the best selling car in a segment is a sales failure is sheer stupidity.
I've already said it doesn't sell enough overall to be a continued model. I was never saying it did. And I already told you why it didn't and couldn't sell the required numbers if it continued to only be sold in a small market. Quit setting up straw men.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
And you misquote, I said who cares if it sold well in it's arena of cars, when the entire segment is on a 15 year sale decline.
If you quoted my stuff properly like I've done, perhaps I could answer.
Okay and? Considering I don't know 8 years ago Australian execs sold for twice the numbers a year to more than they do now and the past few years have been the worst sales figures in several decades. But hey I mean I guess that's all a lie. The entire segment as I said in Australia is on a massive downturn I even gave you a chart to make it easy.
Actually no, Ferrari's sale in a margin that is necessary to make a profit, while Panda's sale in their margin. The difference in that people who potentially can buy a big exec are obviously opting out because they see no reason to, unless you think that the drop from 60k to 27k in that past ten years has some other reason?
Actually it's pretty straight forward, I'm quite aware of the demographics and population disparity between the two regions... What you keep ignoring again and again, is that there was once a time not so long ago, that the big domestic manufactures could sell yearly and monthly figures that broke records. For instance, the i30 broke came to a record month in Australian sales that hasn't been seen since 2005, and the car in 05 that did it was a Commodore. See what I'm getting at. The success of exec car sales isn't there, and the point being, compacts and family econo hatches and sedans didn't just come about in the past few years. They've been sold in the region for some time now and are actually overcoming what use to be a guaranteed seller. So how does one stop it? Change the platform which is what is being done and many in the region are mad? They rather see the name die, then see it kept alive and change with the times.
I'm talking about Australia, the thread title is 2018 Holden Commodore, for what ever reason you think it's proper to bring up the U.S. and a car that will never see itself there...is beyond me. I'm talking about why the system broke down, why it's asinine to have this vehement nationalism and so on. I don't care about what ifs in the U.S.
Uh you're moving the goal post, the car once sold 70 to 80k units a year, now it sell 25-28k that was the point. It's hardly a static linear figure, it in actuality a decline...
Also if the global recession is your justification for why the sales dropped, that not true cause the downturn started in about 04 and then kept dropping to now. And that's the entire market. There were still decent and even record sales months, but no longer yearly. Also if the recession was the massive reason, then why have sales not returned to their pre-recession mark but other regions have?
Yeah I said that, but as I've said if the relative success is being the best in a declining market, then why keep manufacturing in the region for a vehicle that only sales a third or fourth of what it once did 12-15 years ago? If you say it doesn't sell enough to be a continued model, the you obviously understand why manufacturing left, which then makes it all the more confusing as to how GM shafted people...
Also no one is setting up any straw man argument, I gave you the figures, I'm telling you the stats and asking for a realistic outlook that you seem to know beyond others here as to why it should still be manufactured domestically. Other than a nationalistic view.
If you understand why it couldn't realistically keep going the way it was, then surely you can understand why they stopped building them in Australia. And surely you can see how silly it is to make a bold claim that GM or even Ford and Toyota screwed over thousands?
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Sure, the market might have been good with it. But you're also ignoring the investment that it would have taken to get these cars regulated for the US, and, advertised properly when we had already had 20 years of marketing to say that FWD was the way to go for fuel efficiency and space. Having the Commodore and Falcon alongside the Camaro and Mustang through the rather lean years of the '90s and '00s very likely would have spun out one or the other for each brand, and likely would have had pretty dire consequences come the economic downturn in '09.
Even today, we're looking at a market dominated by the Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 that share between themselves around 150,000 sales per year in a healthy market. Pontiac's strongest year with the G8 hit just over 20,000 in sales, and it is probably safe to bet that the Ford would have likely done the same - but neither make much financial sense when you consider how cheap it is for FCA to produce the LX cars these days.
If the Commodore and Falcon had AWD, it would have been an easier sell. If GM and Ford had developed a more fuel-friendly powertrain option, it would have been an easier sell. There are a lot of "iffs" with both, and that's really the crux of the problem. It seems like neither GM or Ford were fully committed to either car being a success up until the very end, and it at least seems to me that it was largely writing on the wall at that point.
- 51,321
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
I'm speaking from debut. It would have been interesting for the Falcon through the 1960s and the smog and downsizing years. I think the Faiclon XR & XW were sold in the states as 2 -door sedans.
EH Holden from the 1960s and then the subsequent Premiere, HQs, etc. might have been a problem running side by side with Novas and Vega, etc. Nonetheless, interesting to have watched that play out.
EH Holden from the 1960s and then the subsequent Premiere, HQs, etc. might have been a problem running side by side with Novas and Vega, etc. Nonetheless, interesting to have watched that play out.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
The real reason the commodore is dying is due to the fuel economy, They never considered getting at-least a Turbo 4 in the lineup so the best model for fuel economy was a thirsty 6 cylinder and the Stigma stayed since, everyone was moving to 4 cylinder cars as the fuel prices have risen, Zero hindsight by Holden and GM in this regard.
The Price though means if they have of fixed that issue it should of sold well for years to come.
The Price though means if they have of fixed that issue it should of sold well for years to come.
Pete05
Premium
- 7,100
- Melbourne, Australia
I've seen a 2-door US Falcon with an XT grille so that has to be 1966/67 at the latest.
I don't know about the Holdens in the US though. The Chrysler Valiant, even with the pre-Hemi slant 6, proved just how underdone the Grey & Red sixes were in comparison.
Very good points there but, the Ecoboost turbo 4 didn't sell well enough to save the Falcon either.
IMO, the bottom line in all this is a seizmic shift in what was/is being sold in the showrooms.
Mums & Dads are buying either SUV or hatchbacks and the work vehicles of the world are now Hilux style crewcabs.
Well you can't forget the GM Zeta platform (should they have continued using it) or the Alpha (where they could've moved it to) both were legal and designed to be sold in most world markets. The same goes for the new Mustang platform, designed from the ground up to be used in most world markets. It's not developing a new platform, it's using one that already exists to create a new model. Something manufacturers do all the time.
The marketing of 'FWD = better' hasn't been a thing since the 90s at the latest, because almost every volume car since then has been FF layout. There's a market for rear drive cars, people are clamouring for them. It's why the LX was created and does so well (the Charger is in fact Dodge's second best selling model behind the minivan with nearly 100k cars a year), it's why the Alpha was created and is doing well, it's why BMW and Mercedes outsell Audi, it's why even Kia is making a new FR car. Rear wheel drive isn't seen as primitive anymore. On the contrary, it's seen as premium and luxurious because brands like Jaguar and Mercedes and BMW and the like continued to use it and market it as such.
You can't forget the G8 went on sale in very late 2007. Right as the economy was going to hell. And despite that, they doubled their sales numbers in 2009, when every other car's sales on the market was falling by a third or more. Yes, 20k was a small number. But the G8 was a brand new V8 car with no nameplate equity introduced right in the middle of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. And the only reason it was cancelled was because Pontiac was cancelled. And there was no way GM could justify to the US Government bailout the need to build a large thirsty V8 family car during that timeframe.
Had it have had a more familiar nameplate the story might've been different. Bonneville or something. Implies speed and 'America', and sounds a lot better than alpha-numeric nonsense. But that's conjecture.
The Commodore in fact had all wheel drive as an option, at least for a short while in the early 2000s. Not many people bought it, because there wasn't much a market for it. There would be now for either brand, and there'd be no reason not to implement such a model today. Particularly in the ute and estate versions. Lift the suspension 4cm, put matte plastic cladding on it, call it 'crossX country all road terrain 4x4+ whatever' and people would buy it.
Both GM and Ford were more than happy to let them run their model lives out so they could replace it with a more homogenised 'earth friendly' appearance. Makes the shareholders happy, makes the government happy. Even though they can and have proved to be able to make larger engines meet emissions requirements, and aren't afraid to put smaller engines in their models to help meet the numbers. But why sell a Falcon when you can sell a Mondeo? Why sell a Commodore if you can sell an Insignia? Even if the profit margins are larger on larger cars.
- 40,829
Jesus, didn't we just go over this crap a couple months ago?
Alpha wasn't designed to be a worldwide platform like Zeta was. The new Mustang wasn't designed to be stretched, morphed and bastardized into a full size sedan. The G8 was a complete flop. And Australian big car sales did diminish themselves into irrelevancy.
Alpha wasn't designed to be a worldwide platform like Zeta was. The new Mustang wasn't designed to be stretched, morphed and bastardized into a full size sedan. The G8 was a complete flop. And Australian big car sales did diminish themselves into irrelevancy.
- 40,829
Yes, you're doing a wonderful job of showing exactly that.
Incidentally, I hope your facts are a bit better than the last guy who stormed across all of the Australian car threads to insist that the world market for large RWD sedans from non-premium brands is so obvious that GM and Ford should get right back into throwing money down holes at them. For that matter, you might even be the same guy.
Incidentally, I hope your facts are a bit better than the last guy who stormed across all of the Australian car threads to insist that the world market for large RWD sedans from non-premium brands is so obvious that GM and Ford should get right back into throwing money down holes at them. For that matter, you might even be the same guy.
And I hope since then you've come to realise that just because a car flopped on the market nearly a decade ago in a very different economy doesn't mean it'd fail now. Because markets change. The buying public changes. And car manufacturers do make poor decisions, especially the ones in Detroit. There's a reason Chrysler had to be bought out by Mercedes and then Fiat, there's a reason GM went bankrupt and had to be bailed out by the US Government. There's a reason FoMoCo had to rely on sales outside the USA just to not go into receivership. There's a reason all 3 of the above were completely caught with their pants down through the 70s whilst Japanese marques were able to establish a foothold they've maintained ever since. And it ain't from good decision making.
The other guy was an emotional idiot, but he had a point.
- 40,829
Okay. Prove it.
In 2017, when Mercedes and Audi and BMW are setting record sales year after year, show that there are going to be people in Europe to line up and buy high quantities of what are essentially new entries in the old executive car market, large sedans badged as a Chevy or Opel or Ford or whatever, when they were all already chased out of that market 15 years ago.
When sales in Australia of those types of cars kept setting new lows every year, show that there is money to be made in dumping effort into new platform development to make more of them rather than repurposing existing cars from more important markets that probably won't sell any worse.
Show any indication that people in America who care at all about the drivetrain of their big, cheap full size sedan won't just continue to buy Dodge Chargers and Chrysler 300s, and everyone else won't just keep buying FWD Impalas, FWD Tauruses and FWD Avalons because they don't care what wheels are driven. Show that the people who want a slightly more upscale model won't just keep buying Lexus ES or Buick LaCrosses or crossover SUVs.
What indication to Ford or GM have that people will buy them enough to justify the development costs over just utilizing one of the platforms and drivetrains they have already developed, that they can more easily diversify into other models, that they have already established a model hierarchy for?
And here I thought I was just given a lecture about cars from a decade ago bombing out on the market not meaning anything for today, and then you start talking about things that happened primarily because of actions that dated to the 1980s and 1990s.
GM and Ford have made plenty of bad decisions. What suggestions are there that this is a bad one? Because a bunch of people who already weren't buying GM and Ford's full size RWD cars in Australia aren't going to buy their FWD replacements either?
I like the attempt to distance yourself from him, to dismiss him as an emotional idiot, even though you're repeating most of the same arguments in the same tenor.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eff...tomotive_industry_crisis_on_the_United_States
Read and learn. Yes it's Wikipedia, but if you don't believe what's there you have the internet at your fingertips.
Ford's last executive car in Europe was the Scorpio. Discontinued because it was catastrophically ugly, and Ford felt it was unecessary for them to sell a large car because they owned Jaguar at the time. GM's last large car in Europe was the Omega, which was a sales success in the U.K. But after the Scorpio was discontinued, it was forced to compete with the 5 series and E class alone. Since it had no real luxury options to compare, its sales sloped off. And was discontinued. Like you said, 15 (actually closer to 20) years ago. Certainly, the markets haven't changed since then. People still have the same wants and make the same purchases they did nearly a quarter of a century ago, right?
Australia. The country where petrol is roughly $1.30 per litre, before taxes. Or about 4 dollars a gallon in the USA. And where there's a 33% tax tacked onto any car over $55k roughly (which the V8 Commodore and Falcon exceed), in addition to the already high sales taxes. And in which the Commodore and Falcon had no diesel or smaller petrol option when every one of their competitors did. Surely that played no part in a loss of sales. But wait, they were the best selling cars in their class? Shh let's forget that part.
You really think Charger sales would eat into a hypothetical GM/Ford big rear drive saloon sales? Have you ever heard of brand loyalty? You think the people that would want a Ford/GM are buying Chrysler because there isn't Ford/GM available? I guess all those Camaro buyers jumped ship to Mustangs back in 2002, right? The people buying Chargers would continue to do so, and people that want GM and Ford would buy GM and Ford. You underestimate how shallow people are when it comes to those things. People will buy anything with the right badge on it. Then it becomes a matter of convincing the people who otherwise wouldn't buy the car to buy it.
GM/Ford of 1985 are the Same GM/Ford of 2005, you know. The decisions they made 30 years prior will reflect on the company later on. What happened to the big 3 in 2008-2009 was a culmination of nearly 40 year's worth of poor decision making and hoping the buying public wouldn't notice.
Buying markets change much quicker than company plans do. The best selling car trends can turn completely upside down in 2 years, takes manufacturers longer than that to develop a proper response. That should be obvious.
I'll restate a little secret for you. Commodore was the best selling car in its class, accounting for nearly 45% of all large cars. Falcon lagged behind because Ford hadn't bothered to update it since 2003. Which by the way was the biggest complaint on the Falcon. Was old and cheap looking and feeling. Tried to fix it by giving it a half-arsed external facelift in 2014. Even then, the Falcon was still #2 in sales only behind Holden. Meanwhile, GM put effort into keeping it contemporary as exemplified by the VF family.
But yeah. No one was buying the 2 best selling cars, keep telling yourself that.
Read and learn. Yes it's Wikipedia, but if you don't believe what's there you have the internet at your fingertips.
Ford's last executive car in Europe was the Scorpio. Discontinued because it was catastrophically ugly, and Ford felt it was unecessary for them to sell a large car because they owned Jaguar at the time. GM's last large car in Europe was the Omega, which was a sales success in the U.K. But after the Scorpio was discontinued, it was forced to compete with the 5 series and E class alone. Since it had no real luxury options to compare, its sales sloped off. And was discontinued. Like you said, 15 (actually closer to 20) years ago. Certainly, the markets haven't changed since then. People still have the same wants and make the same purchases they did nearly a quarter of a century ago, right?
Australia. The country where petrol is roughly $1.30 per litre, before taxes. Or about 4 dollars a gallon in the USA. And where there's a 33% tax tacked onto any car over $55k roughly (which the V8 Commodore and Falcon exceed), in addition to the already high sales taxes. And in which the Commodore and Falcon had no diesel or smaller petrol option when every one of their competitors did. Surely that played no part in a loss of sales. But wait, they were the best selling cars in their class? Shh let's forget that part.
You really think Charger sales would eat into a hypothetical GM/Ford big rear drive saloon sales? Have you ever heard of brand loyalty? You think the people that would want a Ford/GM are buying Chrysler because there isn't Ford/GM available? I guess all those Camaro buyers jumped ship to Mustangs back in 2002, right? The people buying Chargers would continue to do so, and people that want GM and Ford would buy GM and Ford. You underestimate how shallow people are when it comes to those things. People will buy anything with the right badge on it. Then it becomes a matter of convincing the people who otherwise wouldn't buy the car to buy it.
GM/Ford of 1985 are the Same GM/Ford of 2005, you know. The decisions they made 30 years prior will reflect on the company later on. What happened to the big 3 in 2008-2009 was a culmination of nearly 40 year's worth of poor decision making and hoping the buying public wouldn't notice.
Buying markets change much quicker than company plans do. The best selling car trends can turn completely upside down in 2 years, takes manufacturers longer than that to develop a proper response. That should be obvious.
I'll restate a little secret for you. Commodore was the best selling car in its class, accounting for nearly 45% of all large cars. Falcon lagged behind because Ford hadn't bothered to update it since 2003. Which by the way was the biggest complaint on the Falcon. Was old and cheap looking and feeling. Tried to fix it by giving it a half-arsed external facelift in 2014. Even then, the Falcon was still #2 in sales only behind Holden. Meanwhile, GM put effort into keeping it contemporary as exemplified by the VF family.
But yeah. No one was buying the 2 best selling cars, keep telling yourself that.
- 5,204
- Finland
Ignoring the fact the Mondeo, Insignia, Passat, and other cars in that class have grown enough lately that they're essentially in the executive class themselves. The sales in that class have steadily gone down through the entire 21st century. They sold 180,000 Mondeos in 2004, and only 75,000 in 2015. For reference, they sold 220,000 smaller Skoda Octavias that year, and 230,000 Nissan Qashqais. The market for non-luxury large cars in Europe didn't do well because there just wasn't enough people who'd spend more money to get a larger car, when you could use the same money to get a similarly sized Audi, BMW, Mercedes Benz, or even a Jaguar. Or a crossover. Or save that money by buying a smaller car instead. There's hardly going to be a market for a larger RWD non-premium saloon when the existing non-premium saloon market is doing worse every year.
- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
An excellent point (though probably not for the reason you think): even Aussies don't buy the Falcon and Commodore in the numbers they used to. The global buying habits do not favour these cars, and it'd be bad business decision to keep them going for a small vocal minority that doesn't want these cars to ever change — and, if we were to dive a little deeper, probably aren't even in the market for one anyway.
It's a bit like the constant harping about manuals dying. Go to a site like Jalopnik, and you'd be under the impression everyone wants one. But the general buying public tells a very different story. Some of the manufacturers are now reversing their stance on manuals, which is all well and good, but a transmission is a little easier to justify than an entire platform for what amounts to one market.
GM has tried to leverage the Commodore platforms numerous times in a variety of markets. Every single time, it's been a niche model with the sales numbers to go with it.
Oh yeah, almost forgot:
Insult another member again, and you'll earn some points.
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- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I enjoy how I give a visual representation of the downturn of the RWD sedan market in Australia after arguing essentially what others have just said and added. And the guy still wants to say "nope, you're all wrong, none of what you say is correct *insert fingers in ears*"
- 51,321
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
The real test is going to be how the Commodore does, yes in the overall market(Crossovers will probably still be preferred over a largish sedan), but against that Stinger GT & Genesis.
Warranty, Servicing & Price.... and most importantly, how much can it tow.
Warranty, Servicing & Price.... and most importantly, how much can it tow.
Ah yes. Break down my argument so much it loses its original meaning.
The Ford competed with the Opel. Priced similarly, similar options. When the Ford was discontinued, the Opel was forced to compete against cars that started at similar prices but had far more kit available to them. You can't see why they'd fail? Especially in Europe in the early 2000s when more expensive cars were becoming more popular? When both BMW and Mercedes had just either refreshed their car or released a new model, whilst the Opel was a 5 year old design?
I get what you're saying, but you severely overestimate how much I care about this website. It ain't gonna be the end of my world if I'm banned or score some 'naughty' points.
And I enjoy how you and the rest of you continue to gloss over the fact that the Commodore was the best selling car in its class, the fact it was in the top 10 selling cars of the entire country. Sales were down, yes. But it still outsold the majority of the cars in the country. No matter how you want to cut it, the numbers don't lie. None of you have disproven that. You just keep ignoring that very important point and saying it was a failure.
It's almost as if you've come to a conclusion before the debate started, and refuse to listen to any point that proves you wrong and instead just deafly repeat yourself over and over again as if it makes your point more correct. Sort of like how you're projecting that onto me. "Nope you're wrong, none of what you say is correct *insert fingers in ears*"
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Key word "was". Also no one said it was a failure per say, what people have said it it was a failure on the major giants of that nation to not try and save the brand by doing things that would have kept it in the minds of those in the market. Also it was in the top 10 selling cars of it's class, not overall top ten. As I said again and again, it's like saying the titanic was one of the best ships in it's class despite sinking to the bottom of the ocean...
Just like that, the sales of said class have sunk and dropped off massively as was shown to you in the graph and links. The fact that the last time a car of rwd v8 sedan origin had a record breaking month was nearly 12 years ago is saying something. Now that mantle has been taken up by smaller family hatches and sedans. Going from nearly 100k sales a year and dropping of to 27k in less than a 20 year time span even before the big global recession (where it really dropped)...isn't a good thing. Also your entire premise is the global recession, being the cause, yet you've refused to answer my question on why the sales dropped off prior to the economic collapse, and why they haven't returned after it has been over for about 4-5 years now.
also if people really ignored you they wouldn't have made a counter argument against you.
Just like that, the sales of said class have sunk and dropped off massively as was shown to you in the graph and links. The fact that the last time a car of rwd v8 sedan origin had a record breaking month was nearly 12 years ago is saying something. Now that mantle has been taken up by smaller family hatches and sedans. Going from nearly 100k sales a year and dropping of to 27k in less than a 20 year time span even before the big global recession (where it really dropped)...isn't a good thing. Also your entire premise is the global recession, being the cause, yet you've refused to answer my question on why the sales dropped off prior to the economic collapse, and why they haven't returned after it has been over for about 4-5 years now.
also if people really ignored you they wouldn't have made a counter argument against you.
