2019 IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar ChampionshipSports Cars

[TheElbows]

Have any info to back up those statements? Or do you genuinely believe Joest and ProDrive are just "lucky" and happened to be with majorly successful motorsport programs?

 

[-Fred-]

Incompetence and sheer dumb luck brought 13 overall wins at Le Mans, 6 WEC championships, 1 DTM championship and a few more important wins in IMSA over the course of 40 years? Sure...

I think Joest did what they could with the dumpster fire that was given to them, at least bringing in some reliability to the car and even a few wins. They've done a lot better job than Speedsource ever did, that's certain.

 

[Northstar]

Keating will be sticking around for the NAEC races.

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/keating-to-join-aschenbach-robinson-for-endurance-cup/

 

[die996]

Incompetence and sheer dumb luck brought 13 overall wins at Le Mans, 6 WEC championships, 1 DTM championship and a few more important wins in IMSA over the course of 40 years? Sure...

I think Joest did what they could with the dumpster fire that was given to them, at least bringing in some reliability to the car and even a few wins. They've done a lot better job than Speedsource ever did, that's certain.

Nah, just money talking way louder than skills. Also, just look at their history:

Spoiler: Joest's history before IMSA

1995-1997 = They used a Jaguar XJR-14 chassis, the almighty Porsche Type-935 engine and F1 levels of driving talent (Wurz, Alboreto, Johansson, Kristensen). They were that one kid that picks an all-star team whenever he's playing FIFA/Madden/NBA/NHL/MLB against his friends.

2000-2002 = Their rivals were a project GM is ashamed of, something based off a failed GT1 car, something based off a failed GTP car (R8C) and a bunch of privateers (Dome, Courage, Lola, etc)

2003-2006 = A bunch of privateers (Courage mostly) and the evolutions of Audi Sport UK were the only opposition.

2007-2011 = Peugeot shows up, ends up beating them on the 3rd year even though the French never realized they could've been much slower and still won very often.

2012-2016 = Toyota's time, can the dudes that never made a competent F1 car build a competent high-downforce reliable car? Not really... Porsche, on the other hand, didn't need much time to punch them into submission.

Joest won the 2000 edition because the good manufacturers from the late 90s quit, then started winning against idiots, cheap bastards and privateers. Peugeot got them by the balls on their 2nd year even though by then Joest had been doing the same thing for almost a decade. They finally ended up facing some real competition but it was rookies against 13th-year veterans and they still lost rather early. They had no huge head start in IMSA, no magic combo, driving talent was somewhat level and Joest ended up becoming a burning (get it?) garbage can.

PS: Don't make me dissect Prodrive's career. I can do it and, SPOILER ALERT, it looks even worse.

 

[TheElbows]

Well, to stay polite, that's a rather peculiar way to view the last 15 years of Joest's performance. I suspect you think you proved something, but it comes off sounding like you have a grudge against a team that has a perfectly solid performance record. None of what you posted really provides any evidence to the point you tried to make earlier.

"Their opponents weren't good enough" doesn't really support your opinion.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

What

Nah, just money talking way louder than skills. Also, just look at their history:

Spoiler: Joest's history before IMSA

1995-1997 = They used a Jaguar XJR-14 chassis, the almighty Porsche Type-935 engine and F1 levels of driving talent (Wurz, Alboreto, Johansson, Kristensen). They were that one kid that picks an all-star team whenever he's playing FIFA/Madden/NBA/NHL/MLB against his friends.

2000-2002 = Their rivals were a project GM is ashamed of, something based off a failed GT1 car, something based off a failed GTP car (R8C) and a bunch of privateers (Dome, Courage, Lola, etc)

2003-2006 = A bunch of privateers (Courage mostly) and the evolutions of Audi Sport UK were the only opposition.

2007-2011 = Peugeot shows up, ends up beating them on the 3rd year even though the French never realized they could've been much slower and still won very often.

2012-2016 = Toyota's time, can the dudes that never made a competent F1 car build a competent high-downforce reliable car? Not really... Porsche, on the other hand, didn't need much time to punch them into submission.

Joest won the 2000 edition because the good manufacturers from the late 90s quit, then started winning against idiots, cheap bastards and privateers. Peugeot got them by the balls on their 2nd year even though by then Joest had been doing the same thing for almost a decade. They finally ended up facing some real competition but it was rookies against 13th-year veterans and they still lost rather early. They had no huge head start in IMSA, no magic combo, driving talent was somewhat level and Joest ended up becoming a burning (get it?) garbage can.

PS: Don't make me dissect Prodrive's career. I can do it and, SPOILER ALERT, it looks even worse.

Which is it the second year or third year? Can't be both. Also ironic that a rookie team can beat them nearly a decade after they started (and stopped) their program but other teams didn't beat them with more time under their belts and money and yet you give them an out.

Teams that utilized their massive money pit former programs to be competitive in their debut seasons. Bar Nissan obviously. Then you claim they had all the money in the world and druver talent yet other teams did too and they never won. And then you say they aren't good when they're given no support, Damn they just can't win in your warped irrational rewrite of history.

In reality Joest is a great group of racing managers and engineers amd this effort highlights just how bad Mazda DPis were before them and how unfunded. Only group worse is again Nissan as ESM tried and also got a couple wins.

 

[die996]

Which is it the second year or third year? Can't be both. Also ironic that a rookie team can beat them nearly a decade after they started (and stopped) their program but other teams didn't beat them with more time under their belts and money and yet you give them an out.

Teams that utilized their massive money pit former programs to be competitive in their debut seasons. Bar Nissan obviously. Then you claim they had all the money in the world and driver talent yet other teams did too and they never won. And then you say they aren't good when they're given no support, Damn they just can't win in your warped irrational rewrite of history.

In reality Joest is a great group of racing managers and engineers amd this effort highlights just how bad Mazda DPis were before them and how unfunded. Only group worse is again Nissan as ESM tried and also got a couple wins.

Point-by-point...

· Peugeot was already faster than Audi by their 2nd year but they were too stupid to realize it, tried too hard and killed their own cars. They got their first LM24 win on their 3rd attempt.

· They never stopped worked on those cars. The Audi R8 eventually stopped receiving major updates but Joest never stopped working on them.

· Between 1998 and 1999, any decent rivals Audi could've had retired. BMW and Toyota decided F1 was cool again and Porsche cursed the World with the first non-US high-power SUV. After that, all you had to fight were LMP cars based after failed GT1 cars (why would Panoz & Nissan think that was going to work?) and Cadillac, a project so incredibly stupid and underfunded that GM has publicly expressed how ashamed they still are about it. Outside of that, they only competed against a bunch of privateers (reminds me of Toyota's 2018-present run, except no one has a boner for them).

· Why would Joest risk their prestige to run a factory team that actually gives them no support? Let me guess: you still think the Nissan LMP failed because of lack of support, not because it was incredibly idiotic from the very start.

· Of course Nissan has no money nowadays, they wasted it on stupid projects and by being a bunch of GT3 and GT500 tryhards to the point of almost driving themselves to bankruptcy. The fact they still have motorsports efforts showcases how Carlos Ghosn is overrated. No sane man would let Nissan have a racing team for like the next 10 years.

 

[GTPorsche]

Of course Nissan has no money nowadays, they wasted it on stupid projects and by being a bunch of GT3 and GT500 tryhards to the point of almost driving themselves to bankruptcy. The fact they still have motorsports efforts showcases how Carlos Ghosn is overrated. No sane man would let Nissan have a racing team for like the next 10 years.

Nissan's failures weren't related to their Super GT ventures, but rather Renault's urging to get back into F1 which required Nissan to literally drop factory support of everything outside of Super GT to do so.

In the same regard, claiming Joest to be bad because they couldn't get anything more than a few wins out of the dumpster fire of a project that is the Mazda DPi is disparaging Joest at best.

 

[Venom800tt]

· Between 1998 and 1999, any decent rivals Audi could've had retired. BMW and Toyota decided F1 was cool again and Porsche cursed the World with the first non-US high-power SUV. After that, all you had to fight were LMP cars based after failed GT1 cars (why would Panoz & Nissan think that was going to work?) and Cadillac, a project so incredibly stupid and underfunded that GM has publicly expressed how ashamed they still are about it. Outside of that, they only competed against a bunch of privateers (reminds me of Toyota's 2018-present run, except no one has a boner for them).

Panoz was very competitive to the R8 back in the ALMS days, at leas for the shorter races where long term reliability was less of a factor. Also Panoz won the1999 ALMS championship with that "failed GT1" and their LMP1, which is ironically enough the first season Audi ran with the R8R and Team Joest. Joest has had plenty of competition over the years and they had to work for their wins.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Point-by-point...

· Peugeot was already faster than Audi by their 2nd year but they were too stupid to realize it, tried too hard and killed their own cars. They got their first LM24 win on their 3rd attempt.

Good thing it takes more to win than speed alone, also R15 plus basically destroyed that with superior reliability. And 3 years of developing the same car tends to yield a better chance at victory with each passing year.

Peugeot knew they were faster not sure how they were stupid about it. They got beat on attrition.

· They never stopped worked on those cars. The Audi R8 eventually stopped receiving major updates but Joest never stopped working on them.

Maybe some mechanics but Joest engineering wing was in full force with DTM for Audi and had nothing to do with the 2004 and 05 wins. Those cars were as they were prior with minor development if any and went on to win many races.

· Between 1998 and 1999, any decent rivals Audi could've had retired. BMW and Toyota decided F1 was cool again and Porsche cursed the World with the first non-US high-power SUV. After that, all you had to fight were LMP cars based after failed GT1 cars (why would Panoz & Nissan think that was going to work?) and Cadillac, a project so incredibly stupid and underfunded that GM has publicly expressed how ashamed they still are about it. Outside of that, they only competed against a bunch of privateers (reminds me of Toyota's 2018-present run, except no one has a boner for them).

The Panoz wasn't based on the GT1 there is a great mulsanne write up to educate yourself between the two. Nissan actually did pretty good in those years even getting podium at Le Mans. Cadi though was a dumpster and bad attempt by GM who gave up on it in favor of the more successful and recognizable Team Corvette.

Pesca, Dome, Courage were far more capable of putting up a fight than you want to give them credit for.

· Why would Joest risk their prestige to run a factory team that actually gives them no support? Let me guess: you still think the Nissan LMP failed because of lack of support, not because it was incredibly idiotic from the very start.

How are they giving up prestige when they have a massive resume of success? They were willing to try a failing effort due to having no real racing projects in Sports cars and they did what they could with it and were able to eek out wins. Also GTPorsche did a good job explaining Nissan.

Of course Nissan has no money nowadays, they wasted it on stupid projects and by being a bunch of GT3 and GT500 tryhards to the point of almost driving themselves to bankruptcy. The fact they still have motorsports efforts showcases how Carlos Ghosn is overrated. No sane man would let Nissan have a racing team for like the next 10 years.

Based on what evidence? What does an ex Nissan chairman have to do with current or future Nissan racing endeavors? Also pretty sure you should not be a judge on sane people.

 

[die996]

Peugeot knew they were faster not sure how they were stupid about it. They got beat on attrition.

They were 1-2% faster than Audi at times, that is not needed. Imagine Mercedes F1 winning by a full second per lap, winning races by around a minute. Peugeot was trying to do that and that is very dumb when you are fighting a manufacturer and not Courage.

Pesca, Dome, Courage were far more capable of putting up a fight than you want to give them credit for.

How are they giving up prestige when they have a massive resume of success? They were willing to try a failing effort due to having no real racing projects in Sports cars and they did what they could with it and were able to eek out wins. Also GTPorsche did a good job explaining Nissan.

Courage, Dome and the rest were only finishing high at some point because there were no other manufacturer entries. Also, they only put pressure on Audi because the car went on for a couple years without a major update.
These past few messages show how stupidly prestigious some people consider Joest to be. Y'all here think they can do no wrong and that every failure is someone else's mistake. In reality, things work differently.

Based on what evidence? What does an ex Nissan chairman have to do with current or future Nissan racing endeavors? Also pretty sure you should not be a judge on sane people.

Carlos Ghosn is attributed with saving Nissan from bankruptcy and creating the whole Renault+Nissan thingy, he became so popular in Japan they awarded him Dad of the Year. If you're trying to save a car manufacturer from bankruptcy, allowing them to race in SuperGT, create the World's stupidest LMP1 car and the 3rd-most-stupid GT3 car are not wise moves. There's a reason why Mitsubishi disappeared from the motorsports world, they did the right thing (they also screwed up in other aspects).

 

[TheElbows]

Die, you might want to read the way you're writing. You sound like a pissed off internet contrarian. We asked you for clarification, but what you stated wasn't evidence. It was assumptions and opinions. You haven't provided any actual information/evidence to support your claim. Do you understand that?

You haven't provided links, articles, evidence, hands-on experience, personal experience, etc. You've created an opinion...but you haven't backed it up. The basic fundamentals of proving an argument are absent.

I do believe you think you're making legitimate solid points, perhaps. But that's not coming across, at all. Has a single person here actually said that Joest could do no wrong? I haven't seen that. You said they have done wrong, and we're asking you to provide proof of that. You say rather silly things like "In reality, things work differently". Okay? So, prove that. Provide actual legitimate information that you have which shows the negligence or lack of performance/ability that you insist Joest has.

You've got this really asinine snarky attitude as if you're a disgruntled ex-Joest employee. If that's the case, fine, explain yourself. Barging into a conversation and saying "You're all fools, only I know the truth!" isn't going to get you anywhere in a discussion.

An argument isn't useful when you're simply saying "They were dumb, they were stupid...this was dumb...and that was stupid". That doesn't actually say anything. That's not delivering information or an argument.

 

[raven214]

Jordan Taylor to drive the #3 Corvette! Nice to see it's finally official!

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/jordan-taylor-confirmed-at-corvette-racing/

 

[TheElbows]

Nice to see him moving over to Corvette. While down a class, I think career-wise that's a move up. I hope Corvette is planning on sticking with racing for another 10-15 years at least.

 

[Northstar]

On the topic of Joest, I've always been under the impression that a majority of the praise thrown their way has more to with how they operate more than simply their results. Very few teams have the ability to adapt and overcome quite like they do and the ones that do more than likely modeled themselves after Joest.

And on a bad news note, the Michelin Pilot Challenge and Prototype Challenge will be behind a paywall for U.S. viewers in 2020.

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/impc/pilot-challenge-ipc-races-move-to-trackpass-on-nbc-sports-gold/

If it included the main series I would do it in a heartbeat, but with it only being the support series' the move will just be making my VPN an even better investment.

 

[DesertPenguin]

I take it they won't be on the YouTube channel anymore then?

 

[TheElbows]

Well..that's a huge move in the wrong direction, unless only the live races are behind the paywall, which I doubt. I cannot fathom placing two support races behind a paywall...that's bizarre. VPN may indeed be the way to go. Being able to watch YouTube's full races is one of the few things that IMSA does great right now.

 

[JackRyanWMU]

I love how even those like me who have kept their cable subscriptions for live sports are being told, "NOT GOOD ENOUGH! GIMME MORE OF YOUR MONEY!" Way to reward your loyal customers, legacy media.

 

[Wiz]

"The Michelin Pilot Challenge and Prototype Challenge races will also continue to be broadcast on NBCSN as they were in 2019."

It appears to me that this Gold package is a way for viewers to watch MPC and PC live, instead of having to wait for it to air on NBCSN.

In other words, if you don't sign up for this package it will be exactly the same as it was before.

 

[JackRyanWMU]

I preferred being able to watch the Michelin Pilot Series live on IMSA TV when I had free time during the weekends rather than having to wait for some oddball time slot a week and a half later. I would even be alright with being allowed to watch it on demand 24 hours after the live race, but I doubt they'll even allow that.

 

[Wiz]

Ah, I initially missed the part that said they weren't going to air live on IMSA TV for US viewers. That is indeed a bummer.

 

[01GTP]

BS on the LIVE viewing. What a way to get more/new viewers.

 

[JackRyanWMU]

Ryan Briscoe moves to Wayne Taylor Racing:

https://www.imsa.com/news/112019/wa...n-der-zande-full-time-2020-no-10-cadillac-dpi

 

[TheElbows]

With Scott Dixon apparently backing them on endurance races - that's a solid line-up.

Regarding the whole TV thing, I think this is where the entire industry is behind/way behind the times. Live television is...more or less a dead thing. Particularly for support races and "also ran" series or TV shows. The idea that somehow millions of people are going to sit down to watch something at one time is an antiquated idea. We live in the world of "when I want to watch it".

About the only sport that gets away with it is Football, and worldwide maybe Soccer/Football/Futball.

 

[Northstar]

Catherine Legge and Christina Nielsen will be paired in a Lambo for the whole 2020 season.

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/gear-racing-confirms-2020-gtd-entry-with-grasser-support/

DragonSpeed has also committed to a full season with their LMP2.

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/dragonspeed-commits-to-full-lmp2-season/

Regarding the whole TV thing, I think this is where the entire industry is behind/way behind the times. Live television is...more or less a dead thing. Particularly for support races and "also ran" series or TV shows. The idea that somehow millions of people are going to sit down to watch something at one time is an antiquated idea. We live in the world of "when I want to watch it".

I think it's more the series/networks trying to find a sustainable method to broadcast their events. As nice as free on-demand streaming is for us, it doesn't exactly make the series money. It should also be noted that the YouTube uploads don't exactly have tons of views, so IMSA is probably making more money with this NBC deal.

I do think eventually we will see a single motorsport-focused streaming service (or package) featuring pretty much every top series, but TV deals are still too profitable to give them up completely.

 

[01GTP]

With parent company Comcast earning over $11 Billion in 2018 you think NBC could afford to keep the online media free until the industry moves over to streaming only. If anyone is making money off this I would like it to be IMSA not Comcast. I wonder how little Comcast is paying in taxes by taking the accelerated depreciation approach they're using. Probably using stock options like Amazon too. How much profit is enough? Corporate America has gone too far.

Anyway, I guess I have to cough up the dough for enjoyment. 👎 👎

A little perk up!

 

[Northstar]

Quite a bit of news today.

Shank has confirmed both cars will return next year, no details on the drivers though.

https://racer.com/2019/11/21/msr-exploring-options-with-heinricher/

Starworks may run an LMP2.

https://racer.com/2019/11/21/starworks-closing-on-lmp2-return/

And Parker Chase will be in one of the Lexus'.

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/chase-confirmed-at-avs-lexus-for-2020/

 

[raven214]

What a wild off-season! Bourdais is out of his Indycar ride and into the #5 Cadillac which is moving to JDC :

https://racer.com/2019/11/22/bourdais-barbosa-headed-to-jdc-miller/amp/

 

[Jezza819]

What a wild off-season! Bourdais is out of his Indycar ride and into the #5 Cadillac which is moving to JDC :

https://racer.com/2019/11/22/bourdais-barbosa-headed-to-jdc-miller/amp/

Once I heard Bourdais lost his Indy Car ride I kind of thought IMSA would be a good place for him. Sometime before Daytona we need an updated tally sheet with all of these changes because it has been a wild off season so far.

 

[TheElbows]

I hope JDC Miller can put together a better car this year - they haven't been a factor in DPI. Bourdais/Barbosa/Duval is a helluva lineup.