2020 Porsche 718 Cayman GT4 and Spyder Say No to Turbos

Would you consider a Boxster Spyder instead? Seems like a bargain in comparison and they look so good.
I still have the 981 Cayman, so...probably not. But I did initially consider it. The seasons are just really short where I live. And especially so in a car where there's a bit of effort involved to remove and replace the top.

I'll see how it goes. I didn't mention it in the post above but I didn't actually take my deposit back. But I'm now waiting on a 992 CS manual. And they promised me MSRP. (We'll see) It wasn't really the car I wanted but last year I sold the FRS track car and now have a 987 Boxster for HPDE The car is fully caged (no longer street legal) with a hard top and was set up to run in PCA GT1A class. So in that sense, my need and desire for a hard core (Porsche) track focused car has diminished. And maybe a standard 911 just makes more sense [Edit: For street driving/road trips]. Or at least that's what I'm telling myself after doing everything within reason of trying to buy a GT car for the last two years.
 
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I still have the 981 Cayman, so...probably not. But I did initially consider it. The seasons are just really short where I live. And especially so in a car where there's a bit of effort involved to remove and replace the top.

I'll see how it goes. I didn't mention it in the post above but I didn't actually take my deposit back. But I'm now waiting on a 992 CS manual. And they promised me MSRP. (We'll see) It wasn't really the car I wanted but last year I sold the FRS track car and now have a 987 Boxster for HPDE The car is fully caged (no longer street legal) with a hard top and was set up to run in PCA GT1A class. So in that sense, my need and desire for a hard core (Porsche) track focused car has diminished. And maybe a standard 911 just makes more sense. Or at least that's what I'm telling myself after doing everything within reason of trying to buy a GT car for the last two years.
I wonder if Porsche will make a "T" version of the 992. I really like the concept of the T cars - almost GT-lite.
 
I wonder if Porsche will make a "T" version of the 992. I really like the concept of the T cars - almost GT-lite.
THAT would be ideal. I've heard rumors but nothing official. I'm not really a big fan of forced induction. And it's part of what draws me to the GT3. The days of high revving NA engines are winding to a close. And the window to buy such cars and indulge in them is almost gone. Having a 992 with a bit of a power bump from the 4.0 liter n/a engine would be great. I'd switch my 992 order over in a heartbeat if I knew the new 911T was just around the corner.
 
THAT would be ideal. I've heard rumors but nothing official. I'm not really a big fan of forced induction. And it's part of what draws me to the GT3. The days of high revving NA engines are winding to a close. And the window to buy such cars and indulge in them is almost gone. Having a 992 with a bit of a power bump from the 4.0 liter n/a engine would be great. I'd switch my 992 order over in a heartbeat if I knew the new 911T was just around the corner.
Unless you've read otherwise, I doubt a 992T would be naturally aspirated. I'm guessing it would have the base Carrera engine and all of the performance goodies and maybe a manual transmission. I think there is a market for a 911 Carrera 4 liter though, using the Cayman/Boxster GTS motor. They could call it the Carrera RS America, a nod to simpler times when the racier model was mostly just de-contented with some nice alloys. Price it between the 911 CS and GT3, which has become a pretty huge gap, especially if you factor in markup (realistically, probably a $100k gulf). I would honestly rather have such a 911 than the kind-of-outrageous GT3. The lack of an option like that is partly why the Boxster/Cayman GTS4.0 are my favorite Porsches of the current range. The other part being, for me, the 911 has simply become too large. Even the base Carreras have 935-like rear haunches.

Maybe with the next gen Cayman/Boxster going EV, there is room at the bottom for a simpler ICE sports car. 912? Something 996 sized?
 
Unless you've read otherwise, I doubt a 992T would be naturally aspirated.
Well, as I said, a few rumors but nothing official. Power wise, the 414-hp from the GT4/GTS engine would put it right in between the base Carerra and Carerra S. Which is essentially the Market the 911T is supposed to fill. And Porsche has said that they intend to use this engine in other models, without specifically mentioning the 911. And since they've already said the next version of the Cayman/Boxster is going electric, it SORT of makes sense. Let's face it, that engine just wouldn't fit the character of the Cayenne or Macan.

But if it does happen, I'm starting to think we won't see it until the 992.2. They've already announced 3 different "special" versions of the 992 (RS (3.0 TT from the GTS), Sports Classic (3.8 liter from the "turbo") and ST (4.0 liter 503-hp GT3 engine). And all of them will be priced considerably higher than the CS/GTS. It's all a bit infuriating, all these "special" editions, when they can't even produce enough 911/S to meet current demand.

(At the rate I'm "reaching" here I could be writing for an Australian car blog. I suppose I'd have to claim this came from a secret industry source to complete that plug.) :P
 
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@jjaisli , did you ever consider going back to your original plan of a GT4, even if it meant maybe looking for one on the used market since a year has passed when you initially looked at ordering new?
 
Well, as I said, a few rumors but nothing official. Power wise, the 414-hp from the GT4/GTS engine would put it right in between the base Carerra and Carerra S. Which is essentially the Market the 911T is supposed to fill. And Porsche has said that they intend to use this engine in other models, without specifically mentioning the 911. And since they've already said the next version of the Cayman/Boxster is going electric, it SORT of makes sense. Let's face it, that engine just wouldn't fit the character of the Cayenne or Macan.

But if it does happen, I'm starting to think we won't see it until the 992.2. They've already announced 3 different "special" versions of the 992 (RS (3.0 TT from the GTS), Sports Classic (3.8 liter from the "turbo") and ST (4.0 liter 503-hp GT3 engine). And all of them will be priced considerably higher than the CS/GTS. It's all a bit infuriating, all these "special" editions, when they can't even produce enough 911/S to meet current demand.

(At the rate I'm "reaching" here I could be writing for an Australian car blog. I suppose I'd have to claim this came from a secret industry source to complete that plug.) :P
After looking up these three models, yeah...these are going to be locked up by dealers and collectors too. I really like the 718 GTS 4.0 because it's not a limited edition. It's a standard model that just happens to have a fantastic combination of parts. I saw one at a Chipotle near me, top down, parked like a regular ass car. I parked my 986 next to it. It's about the same size though it has a bigger apparent mass (taller sides, bigger wheels, etc). Idk there's something really great to me about making something really really good while not making it super exclusive. If you wrote off a 718 GTS 4.0 in an accident, you could conceivably use the insurance to get another one. You can actually use the thing without feeling like you are altering history (or at least your retirement portfolio :lol:).

Ultimately, the 718 GTS 4.0 has the fundamentals to be an actual icon, rather than just cashing in on iconography from the past like the Sport Classic, 911R, and other have done. (What I mean by this is that the original 2.7RS didn't become iconic because it was super limited production and they were all stored in vaults....it became an icon because it was fantastic and properly utilized.)
 
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@jjaisli , did you ever consider going back to your original plan of a GT4, even if it meant maybe looking for one on the used market since a year has passed when you initially looked at ordering new?
I mulled it over. But ultimately I was torn between keeping the Cayman S and ending up with a car that was actually very similar. Part of what pushed me to the GT3 was that the thought that having both a Cayman S and GT4 didn't make sense. Or getting rid of the Cayman (which would be tough for me, emotionally) and having a car (GT4) that was really rough and not that practical on pothole strewn roads. And now that I have the Boxster track car, the thought of putting the GT4 on track seems a bit silly (and risky). But it's also the fact that doing factory pick-up was just a bucket list item for me. Just once in my life I wanted to drive out of THOSE doors. It's a concept that seemed pie in the sky when I was in my early 20s. But now that I'm in my 50s, I'm starting to realize that I don't have unlimited time. And I want to do it at a point in my life where I'm not old and crabby enough to think it's a ridiculous thing to do. And I may be getting close to that point already. :scared:
After looking up these three models, yeah...these are going to be locked up by dealers and collectors too. I really like the 718 GTS 4.0 because it's not a limited edition. It's a standard model that just happens to have a fantastic combination of parts. I saw one at a Chipotle near me, top down, parked like a regular ass car. I parked my 986 next to it. It's about the same size though it has a bigger apparent mass (taller sides, bigger wheels, etc). Idk there's something really great to me about making something really really good while not making it super exclusive. If you wrote off a 718 GTS 4.0 in an accident, you could conceivably use the insurance to get another one. You can actually use the thing without feeling like you are altering history (or at least your retirement portfolio :lol:).

Ultimately, the 718 GTS 4.0 has the fundamentals to be an actual icon, rather than just cashing in on iconography from the past like the Sport Classic, 911R, and other have done. (What I mean by this is that the original 2.7RS didn't become iconic because it was super limited production and they were all stored in vaults....it became an icon because it was fantastic and properly utilized.)
Yeah, I agree with all of this. In a way it actually kind of irked me that Porsche even released the GTS 4.0 because I saw the value of my own 981 Cayman fade, no longer being the "last" NA Cayman. I guess I'm TRULY a Porsche owner now if I'm thinking these thoughts.

We'll see. I still have my doubts if I'll even get my 911S order through. There is such a long back order (for all cars) but for Porsches it's nuts. A lot of dealers are quoting 12-18 month wait times just for a standard 911. I actually just purchased an NC Miata. That wasn't even on the table. My daughter is now old enough for her permit and she wants to learn manual. And I wasn't going to teach her on the Porsche. And my daily (GTI) is DSG. And after 2 months of looking for a cheapish beater, anything less than $5K seemed like it was falling apart. So I figured I'd keep the Miata for 1 year and then sell it when the 911 came in. Hopefully I won't take much of a loss on it. And in the meantime, it would be a fun experience teaching my daugther to drive it. And I've forgotten how much I love Miatas. Before my daughter was born, I had an NBII. So if the 911 doesn't pan out, I may end up trading this in next year for an ND. And just investing my money and try and recoup my losses from this year. Yeesh.
 
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Pretty sure this is gonna be a future legend.

Steve Sutcliffe: "The best car I’ve ever driven"



@jjaisli You think you could get one of these for anything close to MSRP if you expanded your search to like...the whole country? The RS seems like an incredibly special car, along the lines of the 991R, 997 RS 4 liter, etc. I'm willing to pick it up and deliver it to you if you want to order one from CA. Experienced mid-engined Porsche owner here. :D
 
@jjaisli You think you could get one of these for anything close to MSRP if you expanded your search to like...the whole country? The RS seems like an incredibly special car, along the lines of the 991R, 997 RS 4 liter, etc. I'm willing to pick it up and deliver it to you if you want to order one from CA. Experienced mid-engined Porsche owner here. :D
I had never seriously considered the GT4RS, even three years ago when it was just a rumor, simply because I didn't intend mine to be a dedicated track toy but more of a combination road & track car, and I wanted a manual transmission (RS is usually PDK only). But from the most recent conversation with my dealer, getting an allocation will be harder (i.e. more expensive) than even a GT3. It's just "talk" but I'm already hearing numbers like $100,000.00+ over MSRP floated around. And considering GT3s are now going for $100K over, I suspect it's probably true. And I believe the RS's outright rarity, combined with it being the very last gas powered Cayman, will make them just as sought after in the 2nd hand car market.

If I was a multi, multi-millionaire, maybe I just wouldn't care. But as somebody who works for a living, I just don't think it's worth it.
 
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I had never seriously considered the GT4RS, even three years ago when it was just a rumor, simply because I didn't intend mine to be a dedicated track toy but more of a combination road & track car, and I wanted a manual transmission (RS is usually PDK only). But from the most recent conversation with my dealer, getting an allocation will be harder (i.e. more expensive) than even a GT3. It's just "talk" but I'm already hearing numbers like $100,000.00+ over MSRP floated around. And considering GT3s are now going for $100K over, I suspect it's probably true. And I believe the RS's outright rarity, combined with it being the very last gas powered Cayman, will make them just as sought after in the 2nd hand car market.

If I was a multi, multi-millionaire, maybe I just wouldn't care. But as somebody who works for a living, I just don't think it's worth it.
Oh, we both know that's absolute true. I would bet the only people who can get one at MSRP are those who got noted by their dealers when this car was still just a "rumor, but definitely coming down the pipeline" or those dealer VIPs who buy Cayennes, Panameras, and whatever else from them specifically every 2 years.

I caught a listing based in Germany that is already offering a Q3 2023 slot for € 213,000 that hasn't been configured yet. According to Porsche's Newsroom, the car starts at € 141,000.
 
Oh, we both know that's absolute true. I would bet the only people who can get one at MSRP are those who got noted by their dealers when this car was still just a "rumor, but definitely coming down the pipeline" or those dealer VIPs who buy Cayennes, Panameras, and whatever else from them specifically every 2 years.

I caught a listing based in Germany that is already offering a Q3 2023 slot for € 213,000 that hasn't been configured yet. According to Porsche's Newsroom, the car starts at € 141,000.
Well, I can tell you in Germany, you have dealers and "official" Porsche dealers (whenever you see the Porsche Zentrum) and they are, to my knowledge, not permitted to sell the cars (new) beyond the price set by the factory. At least that's how it used to be. So this somewhat surprises me.

FWIW, I'm going to suggest that buying a Cayenne every two years is no longer enough to get you on the VIP list. Even if it once was.
 
Well, I can tell you in Germany, you have dealers and "official" Porsche dealers (whenever you see the Porsche Zentrum) and they are, to my knowledge, not permitted to sell the cars (new) beyond the price set by the factory. At least that's how it used to be. So this somewhat surprises me.

FWIW, I'm going to suggest that buying a Cayenne every two years is no longer enough to get you on the VIP list. Even if it once was.
I went back and found the dealer's exact site & listing. They seem to deal specifically in used Porsches, but can obtain order slots like other used exotic dealers, so I assume they have an order slot a customer sold them. I know this is a big no-no for a couple marques like Aston Martin.
 
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I went back and found the dealer's exact site & listing. They seem to deal specifically in used Porsches, but can obtain order slots like other used exotic dealers, so I assume they have an order slot a customer sold them. I know this is a big no-no for a couple marques like Aston Martin.
:lol: Yeah, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us, does it.
 
:lol: Yeah, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us, does it.
Has to tickle your brain a bit, though? If you bit the bullet, bought it for $50K over, could you have enjoyed it for 6 months and then flipped it off-market? Porsche & your dealer sees one you graciously committed so much for a GT3, that they'd be inclined to get you even further up the order slot for the next car. Rinse and repeat. :P

I know you're a pure enthusiast though, so you'd be inclined to actually keep and enjoy the car long-term. But, it's crazy that's how the game is played for many & what dealer networks have evolved into now for these marques (although, they would ideally prefer you sell back to them).
 
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...so you'd be inclined to actually keep and enjoy the car long-term. But, it's crazy that's how the game is played for many & what dealer networks have evolved into now for these marques (although, they would ideally prefer you sell back to them).
Yeah, exactly. I can imagine if I bought a GT3/GT4RS, I wouldn't really be interested in selling it for...well, for a very long time.

When the rest of the high performance GT cars, cars, people movers around me are all out accelerating me and not making a sound while doing it, it will be time to pack it in. :D
 
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@jjaisli Slightly off topic - how would you compare the 981 to the 987? Are they both manual trans? The reason I ask is that I've been contemplating tracking down a clean, Lapis Blue on tan 981 6M Cayman once used car prices settle a bit. However, I love how the 986 feels and I worry the 981 will be a bit to clinical in comparison.
 
@jjaisli Slightly off topic - how would you compare the 981 to the 987? Are they both manual trans? The reason I ask is that I've been contemplating tracking down a clean, Lapis Blue on tan 981 6M Cayman once used car prices settle a bit. However, I love how the 986 feels and I worry the 981 will be a bit to clinical in comparison.
For me to make a direct comparison is tough. I own both. But it should be understood that the 981 Cayman S is stock (aside from the the Porsche non-adjustable Sport suspension (not aftermarket but added in after purchase), some slightly more track friendly suspension/alignment settings, ECU tune and decent brake fluid.

The 987 Boxster S by comparison, has little left to resemble what it was like stock. Pretty much everything aside from the engine internals have been changed or swapped. It was built to run in Porsche PCA GT1A class. It's pretty much a full on race car, stripped out, caged, JRZ 3 way adjustable suspension, downforce, etc. It's not your "hair-dresser's Boxster".

IMG_9541.jpg
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In very general terms I would say:

Steering (+) 987. It's still a hydraulic system which provides plenty of road feedback. But on track, running under-pressured R-compound tries on an out-lap, it can feel like it's trying to murder you. The steering can shake in your hands like a paint mixer until the tires are up to pressure. That said, the 981 electric steering is wonderful--one of the best systems from that generation. So it's not such a straight forward answer.

Engine (+981). The DI 3.4 liter in Cayman S can be tuned (or un-de-tuned) to increase it's output close to the 350-hp of the 991.1 Carerra. [Edit: Porsche de-tuned it to 325-hp in the 981Cayman S or 315-hp in the 981 Boxster S vs the 991.1 Carrera] It's smooth, silky, linear, powerful and it sounds about as good as a Porsche Flat 6 can outside of a high revving GT engine. That said, the 3.2 or 3.4 in the 987 is pretty close--it's a GREAT engine, flat-6 magic. But the 981 even stock will definitely show it's legs to the 987--it revs higher (7600 rpm vs 7200 rpm), it's about 50-hp more and IMO, it sounds better.

Interior (+981), the 981 is going to be better. Still no apple car play or android auto outside of aftermarket. But at least it feels like a modern car, though slightly dated. The 987 is starting to feel like it was built 3 generations ago--and it was.

Tough for me to compare the suspension as it's been a long time since I drove a stock 987. And I bought mine fully built. But in stock form, I think the 981 just feels more capable, smoother with higher limits and does it with slightly less drama. I wouldn't classify that as boring. Come off the throttle mid turn and it will still remind you it's a mid-engined car. But the fact that the chassis is stiffer but somehow also slightly lighter than the 987 is a bit telling. The 987 is definitely going to feel more raw. And maybe even more engaging. But ultimately, less capable.

You have any specific questions beyond this, just feel free to PM me.
 
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We'll see. I still have my doubts if I'll even get my 911S order through. There is such a long back order (for all cars) but for Porsches it's nuts. A lot of dealers are quoting 12-18 month wait times just for a standard 911...
Not to drag this thread even further off topic, but just to put a cap on it, my dealer finally came through. After more than 2 years, I was about ready to throw in the towel back in April as they still couldn't get me a 911 CS2 allocation. But during one of our monthly calls, where he went through the process of telling me that things were just as hopeless as the month before, he mentioned that he had a lot of people waiting for a C2/C4 and Porsche just wasn't producing enough*. And then on the side, he told me that he had gotten three 911 GTS allocations out of the blue that they weren't expecting. I thought about it for a hot second and told him I'd take one. That actually turned into 3 weeks of drama but it's finally settled. The car is scheduled for production in July and I'm signed up for factory pick up in October. This has been a dream 30 years in the making so I'm excited. I feel like I'm 16 again. Yeah, it's not a GT3. But considering I now have the Boxster track car posted above, my desire for a GT car is somewhat diminished. And I think the GTS probably just makes more sense.

*FWIW, Porsche, like most manufacturers are having all kinds of supply chain issues. If you want a 911 with Carbon Ceramic brakes, Carbon fiber roof, the aero kit, the Burmeister system, various interior options...you're basically out of luck. In fact, the latest is that they don't have enough chips to produce the electrically adjustable steering columns so every 911 built going forward, at least for the rest of the year, will have a manual adjustment. And I was told don't expect a 2nd key for at least 1/2 a year. I can live with that.

Anybody on the list for a 718 GTS or a GT4, these aren't easy days. It seems like Porsche is WAY behind in production and trying to shift what resources they have to the 911 turbo/turboS/GTS.
 
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Not to drag this thread even further off topic, but just to put a cap on it, my dealer finally came through. After more than 2 years, I was about ready to throw in the towel back in April as they still couldn't get me a 911 CS2 allocation. But during one of our monthly calls, where he went through the process of telling me that things were just as hopeless as the month before, he mentioned that he had a lot of people waiting for a C2/C4 and Porsche just wasn't producing enough*. And then on the side, he told me that he had gotten three 911 GTS allocations out of the blue that they weren't expecting. I thought about it for a hot second and told him I'd take one. That actually turned into 3 weeks of drama but it's finally settled. The car is scheduled for production in July and I'm signed up for factory pick up in October. This has been a dream 30 years in the making so I'm excited. I feel like I'm 16 again. Yeah, it's not a GT3. But considering I now have the Boxster track car posted above, my desire for a GT car is somewhat diminished. And I think the GTS probably just makes more sense.

*FWIW, Porsche, like most manufacturers are having all kinds of supply chain issues. If you want a 911 with Carbon Ceramic brakes, Carbon fiber roof, the aero kit, the Burmeister system, various interior options...you're basically out of luck. In fact, the latest is that they don't have enough chips to produce the electrically adjustable steering columns so every 911 built going forward, at least for the rest of the year, will have a manual adjustment. And I was told don't expect a 2nd key for at least 1/2 a year. I can live with that.

Anybody on the list for a 718 GTS or a GT4, these aren't easy days. It seems like Porsche is WAY behind in production and trying to shift what resources they have to the 911 turbo/turboS/GTS.
Color?
 
noaero.jpg


So quick run down:
  • black leather with yellow deviated stitching (didn't want Race-Tex in a road car)
  • 7 speed manual (yeah, PDK has amazing launches but, come on')
  • Rear wheel steering
  • 18 way seats (because I couldn't see the point of the carbon buckets in a road car) so they're heated/ventilated too
  • GT Sport steering wheel (leather) because Race-Tax/Alcantara gets messy over time
  • Extended range fuel tank
  • premium package (because I wanted the Bose anyway and the dealer was freaking out that they would never be able to sell a manual/yellow car without it if I backed out). So I paid for the premium package but got the car at MSRP (deal!)
  • Yellow tach/sport chrono dials, key fob and seat belts because way to carry on the Taxi theme
  • A rear wiper because I intend to actually drive it

I went back and forth on the centerlocks. They're completely ridiculous and impractical. And even WORSE if you want to go to the track. But they save 6-lbs unsprung weight over the Spyder wheels and they DO look a lot better.

And I did try for the Aerokit but it's just not available.
 
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View attachment 1156665

So quick run down:
  • black leather with yellow deviated stitching (didn't want Race-Tex in a road car)
  • 7 speed manual (yeah, PDK has amazing launches but, come on')
  • Rear wheel steering
  • 18 way seats (because I couldn't see the point of the carbon buckets in a road car) so they're heated/ventilated too
  • GT Sport steering wheel (leather) because Race-Tax/Alcantara gets messy over time
  • Extended range fuel tank
  • premium package (because I wanted the Bose anyway and the dealer was freaking out that they would never be able to sell a manual/yellow car without it if I backed out). So I paid for the premium package but got the car at MSRP (deal!)
  • Yellow tach/sport chrono dials, key fob and seat belts because way to carry on the Taxi theme
  • A rear wiper because I intend to actually drive it

I went back and forth on the centerlocks. They're completely ridiculous and impractical. And even WORSE if you want to go to the track. But they save 6-lbs unsprung weight over the Spyder wheels and they DO look a lot better.

And I did try for the Aerokit but it's just not available.
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Just quoting myself here. Sad to say that the car wasn't ready in time for the factory pick up. I alluded to that journey in the "post your picture" thread. But it's finally here now at my dealer. A very, VERY long time after initially making the deposit. And WITH the aerokit.

Once I have it cleaned and in the garage, I'll post more pics in the appropriate thread.
 
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