2024 Formula 1 Drivers threadFormula 1 

  • Thread starter Jimlaad43
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toastet
Nothing to do with elitism when you're just not qualified enough. That is also the case for any other racing license. You need to get (good) results to get the next higher license step. Every international racing license comes with requirements.

Talking about license and elitism. Indycar has much more of it as far as I know since they don't have written rules for the Indycar license and whatever you do in the end Indycar officials are deciding on your racing resume if you are allowed to even test a Indycar. Only with this test they will decide on which specific tracks you are allowed to drive a Indycar. At least in F1 you know what you have to do and not beeing dependent on the grace of the officials :lol:
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What they deem qualified is the joke. Quite a few years back RB took a chance on some under qualified dutch kid who turned out to be pretty good, this super license system was brought in because of that.
 
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Veinz
this super license system was brought in because of that
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No, it wasn't.

The Super Licence is older than the "under qualified Dutch kid" - and he wasn't "under qualified", as his F3 and karting experience (and championship wins) gave him enough points even under the new system.

Verstappen's age and... rather contacty first season of F1 prompted a change to the Super Licence rules to add a minimum age (18), a requirement of holding a road driving licence, and a minimum number of seasons in single seaters (which Verstappen actually already met). It also changed from awarding super licence points only to a qualifying series champion to a graded points scheme in each qualifying series.
 
Famine
No, it wasn't.

The Super Licence is older than the "under qualified Dutch kid" - and he wasn't "under qualified", as his F3 and karting experience (and championship wins) gave him enough points even under the new system.

Verstappen's age and... rather contacty first season of F1 prompted a change to the Super Licence rules to add a minimum age (18), a requirement of holding a road driving licence, and a minimum number of seasons in single seaters (which Verstappen actually already met). It also changed from awarding super licence points only to a qualifying series champion to a graded points scheme in each qualifying series.
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He didn't have any championship wins (Zandvoort masters aside, 1 race though).

Another driver in a similar situation was Kimi Raikkonen, questions marks were raised over granting him a superlicense owing to his lack of racing experience (just 23 races at that time) and was granted a temporary super license. Totally different system I know but still an interesting note.
 
Famine
The Karting World Championship (and European Championship, for that matter) are both eligible for super licence points, and he won both.
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Didn't know they were given out so far down the ladder.
 
GingerBredMan
What is the argument that Karting championships are eligible for Super license points but Indycar isn’t?
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Indycar does grant super licence points. You get as many for winning Indycar as you do for F2 (40), although the tailoff is steeper in Indycar than most other series - 4th place in Indycar grants as many super licence points as 4th place in a regional F3 championship (10). In contrast, 4th in F2 gets you 30.
 
MagpieRacer
Didn't know they were given out so far down the ladder.
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Yeah, only a couple for winning European karting though.
GingerBredMan
What is the argument that Karting championships are eligible for Super license points but Indycar isn’t?
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Roo
Indycar does grant super licence points. You get as many for winning Indycar as you do for F2 (40), although the tailoff is steeper in Indycar than most other series - 4th place in Indycar grants as many super licence points as 4th place in a regional F3 championship (10). In contrast, 4th in F2 gets you 30.
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As Roo says.

The deal is you need 40 points from various qualifying series over the previous three seasons, with points appropriate to the tier and to your final position in the championship.

Winning Indycar or F2 is 40pt. Second or third in F2 is 40pt, while second in Indycar is 30pt - the same as winning F3 or Formula E. Winning DTM or W Series is 15pt. Winning the World Karting Championship is 4pt.

It's not that Indycar doesn't grant super licence points, but it's considered to be more like F2.5 in terms of the points you get.

Colton Herta's last three seasons would get him 31 of the 40 points needed; if he could get 3rd or better this season, he'd meet the standard.
 
And the problem with Herta going to F1 is that he can't finish higher than 8th this season, so he'll only gain 3 super licence points - and he'll lose the 4 he got for finishing 7th in Indycar in 2019.
 
2019 is already gone. "Accumulated at least 40 points over the previous three seasons in any combination of the championships reported in Supplement 1 of the regulations."

Counting:

SL for 2023: 1. 2020 - 3rd 20 Points, 2. 2021 5th 8 Points, 3. 2022 8th 3 Points = 31
SL for 2024: 1. 2021 5th 8 Points, 2. 2022 8th 3 Points = 11 Points and missing 29 which would need P2 in Indycar 2023 for 30 Points = 41.
 
Good to know that there are points given for Indycar. I’ll admit that I didn’t care to look any of this up. But the whole thing still seems a little ridiculous
 
I think I read Will Buxton talking about if they only counted the road racing season for Indy Car then he would qualify?

Not from Will directly but he retweeted it. Take away the oval results which could be deemed irrelevant to F1 (and will probably be AlphaTauris argument) and he would have enough.
 
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MagpieRacer
I think I read Will Buxton talking about if they only counted the risd racing season for Indy Car then he would qualify?

Not from Will directly but he retweeted it. Take away the oval results which could be deemed irrelevant to F1 (and will probably be AlphaTauris argument) and he would have enough.
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Interesting that this is not only theoretical. This is in the rules since Indycar/Nascar/Indy Lights/Indy Pro 2000 are marked with a * stating exactly that only rounds on FIA homologated (road course) tracks count in these championships with road + oval courses.

From: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/appendix_l_2022_publie_le_15_december_2021_0.pdf

f1sl1.JPG
f1sl2.JPG
 
So Drugovich is the F2 champion, despite retiring, his rivals couldn't get where they needed to be. Been impressive in his 3 seasons of F2. Of course he can't defend his crown and isn't part of a driver academy. Perhaps AlphaTauri will snap him up?
 
Ah, the good old myth of FOM and the FIA being one and the same. Clearly, the FIA denying a mid table IndyCar driver special treatment is somehow the result of FOM's greediness.
 
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So the latest in the F1 journalist rumour mill is that with Herta not happening Red Bull are going to let Gasly go to Alpine and replace him with De Vries.



A final agreement between Nyck de Vries and AlphaTauri is close. When Gasly's transition to Alpine is finally completed, De Vries will become his replacement at Red Bull's sister team. Next year two Dutchmen in Formula 1.
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MagpieRacer
Why do I feel like that's a bad move for De Vries. I'd be gunning for that Williams seat.
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Because he's just there to fill a seat. Red Bull has no use for a 27 year old (28 in 2023) rookie, they just need someone cheap to replace Gasly until they find a new young driver that's good enough for F1. He's the new Hartley.
 
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NICKname
Because he's just there to fill a seat. Red Bull has no use for a 27 year old (28 in 2023) rookie, they just need someone cheap to replace Gasly until they find a new young driver that's good enough for F1. He's the new Hartley.
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Well, RB will be hoping he's the new Gasly more than Hartley. Just plod along getting decent results with no hope whatsoever of moving up to RB. Unless he REALLY impresses, and they decide he is a better choice than PER.

For De Vries, well I imagine a bit more $ and a theoretically better seat are enough to swing it. Plus whatever other perks come as part of being in the Red Bull family. Can't imagine there is much on offer at Williams in that regard.
 
So to sum up the superlicense mess:
Indycar, NASCAR, WEC, DTM, SuperFormula, WRC, and any other top flight motorsport league; You've got top level motorsport experience and are a proven winner with backing to enter? Sweet! Welcome to the grid!

FIA on F1 entry; you didn't score enough top finishes in a league much more closely competitive than our spec car feeder league for young drivers only? Get out and never talk to us again!

Yes, Herta could have qualified with better overall finishes last couple of years. But a multiple race winner in a much tougher competition gets no love. Meanwhile other series even arrange testing setups to get accomplished drivers from other classes of motorsport to drive in them. Just seems F1 is still elitist old boy money hungry crap as always. And excited to see Latifi go despite him being a good guy. He's just too slow to be holding up a seat if they're currently facing enough of a backup of good drivers to fill seats
 
The biggest frustration with the Herta thing is if they only counted road course results (which should be the case let's be honest) then he qualifies easily.

It is though, ironic, that it's Red Bulls own accelerated promotion of Verstappen that triiggered the super license changes and now they are losing out from it.
 
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MagpieRacer
The biggest frustration with the Herta thing is if they only counted road course results (which should be the case let's be honest) then he qualifies easily.

It is though, ironic, that it's Red Bulls own accelerated promotion of Verstappen that reiggered the super license changes and now they are losing out from it.
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Still don't get it regarding FIAs own Appendix L (like I quoted in post #225 here) it is the case. There aren't any US Oval tracks homologated by the FIA.
Here is the actual tracklist with the FIA homologated circuits and grading: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/circuits_fia20220512.pdf
 
My interpretation of that is they only get the points if all the road course rounds are on homologated tracks. It doesn't matter where the oval races are. So they don't discount the oval track results, even though road courses are where their focus seems to be.
 
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Graham Rahal, son of IndyCar legend, Bobby Rahal, has joined the debate over Colton Herta's failed bid to enter F1, declaring that the series is "elitist" and doesn't respect IndyCar.

His comments come as Red Bull motorsport consultant, Helmut Marko admits giving up on attempts to bring Colton Herta to F1, having failed to get the FIA to issue a special dispensation to the American in terms of the points required for his superlicence.

While F1 CEO, Stefano Domenicali and a number of team bosses argued against making an exemption for Herta, others claim that the superlicence points system is weighted against IndyCar and appears to place more value on series like F3 and F2.

Rahal, who races in IndyCar with Rahal Letterman Lanigan Racing, which is co-owned by his father, three-time IndyCar champion and 1986 Indy 500 winner, Bobby Rahal, who at one point managed the Jaguar F1 team, took to social media to respond to the claim that F1 is only interested in American money, not American drivers.

"Damn right," responded Rahal. "F1 is an elitist sport. They don't want us. Remember that.

"They want US companies money," he continued, "they want wealthy US individuals money. But they don't care about the rest. Always has been that way, always will be.

"And for those who want to say that Colton Herta didn't 'earn' the right. You're off base. He's as talented if not more than the rest.

"He's a proven winner. He came to the top, and has done exceptionally well. F1 has had ride buyers for years who don't hold a candle to (Herta). FACT!"

Whatever the rights and wrongs - and the superlicence system does appear to 'trivialise' IndyCar in relation to some series - F1 does need more American involvement especially in terms of drivers.

As it happens, Herta is likely to continue racing in IndyCar with Andretti Autosport, team owner, Michael Andretti having discovered F1's 'closed shop' attitude for himself having seemingly failed to secure an entry with his own team following opposition from the likes of Mercedes and Domenicali.
 

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