2024 US Presidential Election Thread

[TexRex]

I agree with you that the case seems to be an uphill battle. It does help their case that Trump and Vance have continued to make those statements despite knowing the harm and falsity. But I'd wager that nothing comes of it, and it'll ultimately give Trump more reason to argue that he's persecuted by lawsuits that go nowhere. Rather than what's actually happening which is that he's harming people and they're trying to fight back.

Legitimate harms are ultimately those perpetrated by others and falsity alone isn't a reasonable (legally or otherwise) basis for prosecuting speech.

It does feed the persecution narrative, but I don't see that as actually helping Trump because those stupid enough to buy it are already balls-deep on Trump, and so that's not really what concerns me. My primary concern is the justiciability of the claims (rather the fact that they aren't justiciable), and that the tired "fire in a crowded theater" trope was invoked in the filing is...not great.

 

[UKMikey]

Aaron Rupar has some clips of Trump's North Carolina stump speech:

Thread by @atrupar on Thread Reader App

@atrupar: I'm going to put together a thread covering Trump's campaign event in Mint Hill, North Carolina. Follow along for clips and commentary. Let me note up to that if you appreciate me watching Trump so you...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[Danoff]

Legitimate harms are ultimately those perpetrated by others and falsity alone isn't a reasonable (legally or otherwise) basis for prosecuting speech.

That the harms are ultimately those perpetrated by others doesn't mean that the speech is protected. I agree with you that this case is unlikely to go anywhere. The only thing that gives me pause is that we know that the speakers knew it was false and that it was causing harm, and did it anyway.

 

[UKMikey]

Project 2025 mastermind allegedly told colleagues he killed a dog with a shovel

Revealed: former colleagues claim Kevin Roberts told them he killed a neighbor’s pit bull around 2004

www.theguardian.com

 

[TexRex]

That the harms are ultimately those perpetrated by others doesn't mean that the speech is protected. I agree with you that this case is unlikely to go anywhere. The only thing that gives me pause is that we know that the speakers knew it was false and that it was causing harm, and did it anyway.

Brandenburg v. Ohio (go figure) is the primary hurdle here. Speech must be directed at inciting imminent lawlessness and likely to do so to no longer benefit from protections. It's a high hurdle. It could be that parties were aware of how high the hurdle is and used that fact to their advantage, but I think the hurdle should be as high as it is so that the state can't prosecute on the basis that it doesn't like the speech.

 

[Danoff]

Brandenburg v. Ohio (go figure) is the primary hurdle here. Speech must be directed at inciting imminent lawlessness and likely to do so to no longer benefit from protections. It's a high hurdle. It could be that parties were aware of how high the hurdle is and used that fact to their advantage, but I think the hurdle should be as high as it is so that the state can't prosecute on the basis that it doesn't like the speech.

I'm with you that the state shouldn't be able to prosecute on the basis that it doesn't like the speech. The Brandenburg fact pattern is slightly different in that the in this case speech had a known and widely reported effect and was repeated, which I think is interesting for this case.

 

[TexRex]

I'm with you that the state shouldn't be able to prosecute on the basis that it doesn't like the speech. The Brandenburg fact pattern is slightly different in that the in this case speech had a known and widely reported effect and was repeated, which I think is interesting for this case.

The great thing about the imminence requirement in the Brandenburg test is that it recognizes individual agency. Harms were perpetrated by those in Trump's vermin base what sought to perpetrate harms.

 

[Danoff]

The great thing about the imminence requirement in the Brandenburg test is that it recognizes individual agency. Harms were perpetrated by those in Trump's vermin base what sought to perpetrate harms.

Agreed, but again, the question is not whether they had agency, the question is whether they were incited. That others carried out the activity doesn't prevent it from being incitement. If Trump and Vance carried out the harm, we wouldn't be talking about Brandenburg or free speech at all.

If T&V just said it once, I wouldn't think it would be incitement. But they saw the effects repeatedly and kept going. I think this is a wrinkle that isn't quite on the nose for Brandenburg.

 

[Keef]

Ballot language came out for Ohio's anti-gerrymandering Issue 1 and it is infuriating.

It makes a complete hash of the actual amendment which you can read here.

There's a lot of bleepery going on in that ballot language, using a lot of negative terminology to put a bad taste in the mouths of readers. The language is so bad that this one here is actually revised, after the initial language got sued and taken to the Ohio SC. There is at least one blatant falsity in there too, in point #2, where it says the new commission will "be required to gerrymander". Stone cold lie, because the definition of gerrymandering is when politicians create maps that favor their own party. The entire point of this amendment is to remove politicians from the process entirely. It is simply cartography, not gerrymandering.

I shared a bunch of stories on Instagram hoping somebody unfamiliar will actually read them and see how LaRose is treating us like morons.

 

[Danoff]

where it says the new commission will "be required to gerrymander". Stone cold lie,

That kind of thing can be used by either side to fight either outcome. Not great.

 

[TexRex]

Agreed, but again, the question is not whether they had agency, the question is whether they were incited. That others carried out the activity doesn't prevent it from being incitement. If Trump and Vance carried out the harm, we wouldn't be talking about Brandenburg or free speech at all.

If T&V just said it once, I wouldn't think it would be incitement. But they saw the effects repeatedly and kept going. I think this is a wrinkle that isn't quite on the nose for Brandenburg.

More than acknowledging the possibility, I actually think they were emboldened by the standard which prosecution can't meet. I think someare inclined to refer to this as "stochastic terrorism"? But rhetorical repetition does not responsibility make. Absent imminence, responsibility for harms is still squarely on the perpetrators.

Look, they're rats and I can't think of any harm that could befall them which would not spark joy in me, but I have yet to even question that prosecution here is a total non-starter.

 

[Danoff]

I have yet to even question that prosecution here is a total non-starter.

Not that it's worth much, but I do question whether it's a non-starter. But that's where I sit, questioning whether it's a non-starter. I don't get so far as to think it'll succeed.

 

[Keef]

A private citizen group in Springfield OH has brought charges against Trump and Vance. There is a process for citizen charges to move forward but the fact they were bold enough to do it is impressive. Not likely to result in an convictions ever, but I think there's enough there for an actual indictment.

 

[Blitz24]

A private citizen group in Springfield OH has brought charges against Trump and Vance. There is a process for citizen charges to move forward but the fact they were bold enough to do it is impressive. Not likely to result in an convictions ever, but I think there's enough there for an actual indictment.

I'm curious if Vance either wins VP or he crashes out entirely from politics. He's taking a big risk to be this dumb.

 

[CTznOfTime]

It's still protected speech. However offensive, it doesn't fall outside of protection to which exceptions are few in number, narrow in scope, and defined in great detail. That's without diving into how the charges came bout per Ohio statute.

Do you think there should be some sort of law that prevents or outlaw the dissipation of fake news or false narrative ?

What's your POV on that ?

Should we allow people to make the wildest claim ?
Allow for the boy to cry "wolf" ?

 

[TexRex]

Do you think there should be some sort of law that prevents or outlaw the dissipation of fake news or false narrative ?

What's your POV on that ?

Should we allow people to make the wildest claim ?
Allow for the boy to cry "wolf" ?

Falsity alone isn't harm. There are already exceptions in First Amendment jurisprudence where falsity is a factor, but the exceptions are based on legitimate harms directly resulting from falsity, as fraud and defamation.

Especially in the absence of harm, no government is fit to be arbiter of what's true, not least because governments themselves lie so often.

 

[CTznOfTime]

Falsity alone isn't harm. There are already exceptions in First Amendment jurisprudence where falsity is a factor, but the exceptions are based on legitimate harms directly resulting from falsity, as fraud and defamation.

Especially in the absence of harm, no government is fit to be arbiter of what's true, not least because governments themselves lie so often.

And there lies the source of creating and allowing the process of enduring stupid group of population...

So that the rich and powerful can control these "sheep"....


I see what and why the government allows it now...

It is a way to control

If you know, you know
If you don't, too bad, just continue to bend over...


It is in their government's interest to allow and to have a dumb population....
China is doing is more forcefully.
uSa is dangling the carrots more subtly...

Ok, then carry on
...

It is all by design.
If all the people in the country is too intelligent, then the government will be overthrown and those who benefits from our taxes would be kicked out.

Legalize corruption.



Nothing to see here.

 

[Keef]

I'm curious if Vance either wins VP or he crashes out entirely from politics. He's taking a big risk to be this dumb.

I can't fathom him getting reelected in Ohio in 2026 after all the damage he's caused. The county Springfield is in is heavy Republican and though the urban area itself leans Democrat it's not as strong as you'd think. Vance just disrespected a ton of people.

 

[TexRex]

And there lies the source of creating and allowing the process of enduring stupid group of population...

So that the rich and powerful can control these "sheep"....


I see what and why the government allows it now...

It is a way to control

If you know, you know
If you don't, too bad, just continue to bend over...


It is in their government's interest to allow and to have a dumb population....
China is doing is more forcefully.
uSa is dangling the carrots more subtly...

Ok, then carry on
...

It is all by design.
If all the people in the country is too intelligent, then the government will be overthrown and those who benefits from our taxes would be kicked out.

Legalize corruption.



Nothing to see here.

...

What?

 

[CTznOfTime]

...

What?

Sorry.

I think I may have gone way too deep there for you...

.. as I said, nevermind.
Just carry on.
Nothing to see here.

If you know, you know.
If you don't, you don't.

 

[TexRex]

I think I may have gone way too deep there for you...

No, your reply to me didn't merely fail to address anything I said...you were incoherent. I'm not going to let you pass your incoherence off as my failure to grasp what you were saying.

 

[CTznOfTime]

No, your reply to me didn't merely fail to address anything I said...you were incoherent. I'm not going to let you pass your incoherence off as my failure to grasp what you were saying.

Case in point:

In this scenario, I may be the boy who cry wolf

Nothing wrong with you, and I was not trying to make a fool out of you, nor was I trying to make you look stupid...
As a matter of fact, out of everyone here, you are one of the few I respect, and thus asked you the original question.

Please don't take it wrongly or offence personally.

I was purposely being incoherent
Talking in tongues if you will
Dropping bread crumbs
Just tits bits of dashes with no real connections.
Hints of theories.

Make it Anything you want....

 

[Famine]

I was purposely being incoherent
Talking in tongues if you will
Dropping bread crumbs
Just tits bits of dashes with no real connections.
Hints of theories.

Make it Anything you want....

Looks like you want this thread:

The Illuminati and other Conspiracy Theories thread

I noticed that there are some conspiracy threads around on this forum such as the "chemtrails vs contrails" thread, but there is not a thread about this relatively well-known conspiracy theory, the "Illuminati". There seems to be a mass of people on the internet who believe that this is real...

www.gtplanet.net

 

[CTznOfTime]

YouTube just dropped this on my feed right on time to reply to you all...
What i say may be borderline on conspiracy, but I think there are significant and sufficient evidences of what I was trying to convey earlier.

I really don't see myself as one of those Conspiracy Theories... I try my best not to be part of that group.



There is poverty (finance) as discussed here:


But I am also saying poverty of the mind, being taken advantage by the government...


I will let you guys/gals make the connections, if you see it, let me know your pov

Edit: society and government exploitation of those who are poor in their mind and the ability (lack thereof) for critical thinking....

 

[McLaren]

I can't fathom him getting reelected in Ohio in 2026 after all the damage he's caused. The county Springfield is in is heavy Republican and though the urban area itself leans Democrat it's not as strong as you'd think. Vance just disrespected a ton of people.

No shot, he does. I've shared it before, but he barely won the seat (needing Thiel's money & Trump's endorsement) despite being on the same ticket where other Republicans did just fine.

 

[UKMikey]

Add Al Sharpton to the list of people Mark Robinson needs killing:

 

[UKMikey]

Goldman Sachs predicts a better economy under Harris and Dems if they win.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/goldman-sachs-sees-biggest-boost-us-economy-harris-win-2024-09-04/

 

[TexRex]

A new watch? In Biden's terrible economy?

On the one hand I hate that the bitch could get anything from scams like this but on the other hand the rats that get scammed by the bitch are likely to be only those that most deserve it.

 

[Joey D]

That watch is $100k and it's not even that special. I'm also not sure what a TX07 movement is.

 

[Liquid]