2024 US Presidential Election Thread

[Danoff]

Which is weird. I cannot see any appeal to Trump other than as a strongman.

It somewhat represented in the video I posted with Pete arguing against undecideds. People are super critical of politicians (other than Trump), and are single-issue on some of the weirdest single issues imaginable. One person is single issue on staying outside of the two party system. It's not necessarily in the video but other people are single issue on a host of issues like the economy, immigration, manufacturing, and obviously we have people right here who are single issue on Gaza.

This is somewhat tolerable when we can afford it. Right at this second we have someone who attacked congress and the vice presidency to break the country permanently running for office. We cannot afford any of those issues. Even abortion would have to take a back seat to democracy. Because no progress can be made on any of those issues if the country is broken and we go dictator.

People take having a say in government for granted so deeply, that they somehow assume it can never be taken away. A Trump presidency represents you not getting a say anymore in what your government does. It's just whatever he and his cronies would like. That's what he wants and represents. That's what he attempted on January 6th, and it's what he has in mind for a second term.

 

[TheHun99]

Wife and I voted a little earlier today. At least 2 votes in PA for Harris & Walz.

 

[Famine]

It's not as passive as just not saying enough.

I didn't quite reach the heights of how bad Trump is either, but what's a Veep supposed to do about enactment of foreign policy? Literally all she can do is nod or shake, and she's not going to overtly do the opposite to her boss until she replaces him.

 

[FuriousDemon]

It somewhat represented in the video I posted with Pete arguing against undecideds. People are super critical of politicians (other than Trump), and are single-issue on some of the weirdest single issues imaginable. One person is single issue on staying outside of the two party system. It's not necessarily in the video but other people are single issue on a host of issues like the economy, immigration, manufacturing, and obviously we have people right here who are single issue on Gaza.

This is somewhat tolerable when we can afford it. Right at this second we have someone who attacked congress and the vice presidency to break the country permanently running for office. We cannot afford any of those issues. Even abortion would have to take a back seat to democracy. Because no progress can be made on any of those issues if the country is broken and we go dictator.

People take having a say in government for granted so deeply, that they somehow assume it can never be taken away. A Trump presidency represents you not getting a say anymore in what your government does. It's just whatever he and his cronies would like. That's what he wants and represents. That's what he attempted on January 6th, and it's what he has in mind for a second term.

Yeah, people just think voting as a right is here to stay. It may not be, if trump wins. Just like abortion was settled until it wasn’t.

I wish I could keep my cool and talk to my brother about “both sides are bad” crap, but I’d just not be able to control myself, so I just don’t. It’s nice to be able to have a privilege of being a white straight man, but eventually they can come for him too, given that he wasn’t born here.

 

[Danoff]

I wish I could keep my cool and talk to my brother about “both sides are bad” crap, but I’d just not be able to control myself, so I just don’t.

Harris wants to lock up Trump for criminal acts. Trump wants to kill innocent people for disagreeing with him. Pretty much the same. [/s]

 

[Duke]

I mean, he wants to give every American a free pony. I've heard worse ideas.

He's also running on an anti-gingivitis platform.

Voting for Vermin is potentially funny, but it's confusing speech. I like to be as clear with my vote as possible.

It's more than just funny, but don't worry your pretty little head - for the first time in 40 years of eligibility, I'm voting for a major-party candidate. Though that is not a particularly clear message, either - it's completely open to misinterpretation as "approval", rather than "rejection of a loathsome alternative".

On some [...] comments I've seen, "tell me how Harris is qualified?" to which I would respond, "tell me how Trump has ever been qualified to be President".

I've had several cultist acquaintances say that, and I've asked how Trump was qualified in 2016. Every single one has either changed the subject or completely ignored the question.

 

[TheCracker]

Yeah, people just think voting as a right is here to stay. It may not be, if trump wins. Just like abortion was settled until it wasn’t.

It's not like Trump, if he wins, will come January just turn around and call himself a dictator from the get-go. It will be a gradual process, one he's/they've already set in motion with supreme court appointments etc. They'd be little to stop them staging 'free elections' in a similar way to Russia's where you get all the hype and fanfare of a democratically held election but none of the actual democracy in action. But then at that stage what can you do about it? You can't just vote them out in four years time because that boat has sailed. You can violently revolt, but first whif of that happening and you're quickly going to find that 2nd amendment repealed. Dictators don't want their populance armed, they're much easier controlled without their guns. You give them this amount of power and its going to be a long hard struggle to put that genie back in the bottle.

 

[Danoff]

He's also running on an anti-gingivitis platform.

It's more than just funny, but don't worry your pretty little head

You're serious about gingivitis?

Though that is not a particularly clear message, either - it's completely open to misinterpretation as "approval", rather than "rejection of a loathsome alternative".

I think it's pretty clear that a vote for Harris is a rejection of Trump. Harris has genuine support, but Trump is a hated figure and that is well known. By contrast, I think it's more reasonable to assume that a vote for Trump is enthusiasm for Trump.

 

[Joey D]

It's more than just funny, but don't worry your pretty little head - for the first time in 40 years of eligibility, I'm voting for a major-party candidate. Though that is not a particularly clear message, either - it's completely open to misinterpretation as "approval", rather than "rejection of a loathsome alternative".

The way I reasoned it is that both sides are terrible; it's just the Republicans are exponentially more terrible than the Democrats. I would much rather hate a politician over policies like I will with Harris than hate a politician over dismantling the country like I would with Trump.

 

[dylansan]

Any vote for third party gives the orange clown more opportunity to win the electoral college vote in our state... It's not a protest or message to the Dems like you think it is.

Look back at 2016 and 2020. Trump had narrow margins in a few states and counties which were indirectly or directly caused by the number of 3rd party votes.

Biden won Massachusetts in 2020: 65.6% - 32.14%

Hilary won Massachusetts in 2016: 60.01% - 32.81%

If Trump does so well that he wins Massachusetts, it's because the Democratic party chose to make complicity in a genocide a requirement for defeating him. It's because they said, if you want to defeat Trump, your only choice is to actively cast a vote for someone who will facilitate the murder of tens of thousands of civilians.

I will never, ever forgive them for that.

This is not "I don't really like it either, but oh well." It's unfathomable.

I don't understand sending the message that you care more about what's happening in other countries than you do about what's happening right here.

I care quite a lot about the murder of tens of thouasands of civilians. I also care about Americans, and all other humans.

It is not my responsibility to sacrifice Palestinians for the safety and wellbeing of myself or my fellow citizens.

This is a trolley problem.

Trump and Harris voters are fighting over setting the lever to track A or B, both of which have tons of people tied to the tracks. I'm trying to pull it to track C, which has nobody tied to it. But if Harris loses and the trolley runs over all the Americans and who knows who else on track A, I'll get blamed for not pulling towards B, full of Palestinians.

There are other ways to show anger over support of Israel besides your vote. Peaceful protest has a long history in America. As does voting for particular candidates down ballot.

As does voting third party in a state which is so solidly blue that Dems would have to achieve a historic landslide defeat for my vote to actually affect the outcome. If Massachusetts becomes a swing state, the results of Massachusetts won't matter.

I would take issue with your wording "She's part of an administration supplying the weapons and has expressed clear support for that policy with no indication of conditioning support on human rights or any other criteria." That's definitely false. It's just not as much indication of conditioning support as you would like. But the Biden administration has shown some indication of conditioning support, and Harris has shown that she is farther from Israeli support than Biden, at least based on campaign statements.

First of all, the Biden administration's "indication" of conditioning support is meaningless. They are already sending support, the genocide is already happening, and they are not conditioning the weapons or stopping them. That's all that matters.

Harris has probably said plenty, everything except an actual change in policy.

Let me be very clear: I am unequivocal and unwavering in my commitment to Israel’s defense and its ability to defend itself.

...

But no change in policy in terms of arms and so forth?

No

She's not Joe Biden. And she's not campaigning on unconditional support for genocide. Voting for her does not make you complicit in Israel's actions.

It makes you complicit in the actions she has indicated she would take, such as supporting Israel unequivocally.

I didn't quite reach the heights of how bad Trump is either, but what's a Veep supposed to do about enactment of foreign policy? Literally all she can do is nod or shake, and she's not going to overtly do the opposite to her boss until she replaces him.

I don't buy it. What happens if Harris expresses a difference of opinion? She hurts Biden's election chances? He's not running. She hurts her own chances? Stopping weapons shipments is popular. She hurts US credibility? Genocide, and violations of international and US law hurt it more.

Look, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Harris will do a 180 after being elected, and halt all weapons shipments to Israel. But anything short of that would be complicity in genocide.

I will be asking you your thoughts if Harris wins and continues to send weapons without condition.

And even with all that said, I don't blame anyone for voting for Harris. It's a hard choice, I can't tell anyone what to do. It's the attempt to blame people who are trying not to violate their most basic principles, that I find sickening. It's reminiscent of the campaign against "Bernie Bros" and the blame placed on Sanders supporters for Hilary's loss. Hilary still takes zero responsibility for her loss.

Responsibility... We are currently failing our responsibility to humanity, under a Democratic president, one I voted for. If it doesn't stop now, then my only hope is that Democrats figure out that genocide is unpopular enough to cost them votes. And I'm trying to do that in a way that has almost zero chance of actually affecting the outcome of the election, and I'm still getting fingers wagged at me.

 

[Obelisk]

We are in an election cycle where we have to save ourselves as a democracy first. If Trump takes office, there will no United States, and as a consequence to you and I as residents of the same state, a Trump presidency would be huge trouble for state of Massachusetts and other blue states. It's going to be a huge net negative on the world beyond just the situation in Palestine. While I agree that we need to cut the support to Israel...
IMHO, this specific election is the worst time to be drawing a line in the sand on international affairs when domestic problems are looming over all of us.

 

[Famine]

I will be asking you your thoughts if Harris wins and continues to send weapons without condition.

You don't need to, because I'll give them now: you will still have the option of voting for someone else in 2028.

If 45 returns as 47, the chances of you having the option of voting in 2028 at all plunge.

 

[Liquid]

Can Trump vote given that he was convicted of (several) felonies? The BBC has a mini-headline that he's in Flordia to vote but the actual feed just states he's there in person with Melania's stunt double.

 

[Jump_Ace]

I'm trying to pull it to track C, which has nobody tied to it.

What does this path look like and how would one vote for track c? Sounds nice in theory, but in reality, how does it happen?


Jerome

 

[p78]

You actually believe Trump will stop weapon shipments?

To his friend Bibi?

 

[Joey D]

Can Trump vote given that he was convicted of (several) felonies? The BBC has a mini-headline that he's in Flordia to vote but the actual feed just states he's there in person with Melania's stunt double.

He did:

2024 presidential election live updates: Trump casts his ballot in Palm Beach, Florida

Voting is underway in the 2024 Presidential election. Follow live updates on Donald Trump, Kamala Harris, poll close times, when to expect results, voting issues and more.

apnews.com

As for why he can, it has to do with Florida and New York law:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/05/politics/can-trump-vote-2024-election/index.html

 

[Duke]

You're serious about gingivitis?

Yes. He sometimes carries around a big toothbrush.

I think it's pretty clear that a vote for Harris is a rejection of Trump. Harris has genuine support, but Trump is a hated figure and that is well known. By contrast, I think it's more reasonable to assume that a vote for Trump is enthusiasm for Trump.

I disagree comprehensively that it is clear a vote for Harris is a vote against Trump. A vote for Harris is counted as a vote for Harris - there is no space on the ballot for an essay explaining why you're voting for Harris.

Given the DNC's historically epic ability to completely misread the room, I have absolutely no confidence the DNC will understand that a large portion of any success they have this election is anything other than people loving them.

 

[dylansan]

You don't need to, because I'll give them now: you will still have the option of voting for someone else in 2028.

I'm sure that'll be a huge comfort to the remaining Palestinians.

We are in an election cycle where we have to save ourselves as a democracy first. If Trump takes office, there will no United States, and as a consequence to you and I as residents of the same state, a Trump presidency would be huge trouble for state of Massachusetts and other blue states. It's going to be a huge net negative on the world beyond just the situation in Palestine. While I agree that we need to cut the support to Israel...
IMHO, this specific election is the worst time to be drawing a line in the sand on international affairs when domestic problems are looming over all of us.

Sorry, mass murder and genocide is exactly the right time to draw a line in the sand, especially when I have the rare opportunity to do so without affecting the outcome of this election.

Unless you can describe a scenario where my vote would actually make a difference to who wins?


And can we stop whitewashing the murder of tens of thousands of people as "international affairs" or "differences in policy"? If you want to talk about what's at stake then we should do so consistently.

What does this path look like and how would one vote for track c? Sounds nice in theory, but in reality, how does it happen?


Jerome

Voting for track C is voting for a third party candidate. I have no delusions that one will win this election. I also don't expect my vote, in isolation, to send a message, I just think it's the right thing to do.

But I would love to hear anyone else's plans for steering off of track A or B, if it doesn't involve voting for someone besides candidate A or B.

You actually believe Trump will stop weapon shipments?

To his friend Bibi?

If this is directed towards me, then no.

Trump's actions are the responsibility of Trump, and people who vote for Trump. I am not voting for Trump.

 

[Danoff]

Biden won Massachusetts in 2020: 65.6% - 32.14%

Hilary won Massachusetts in 2016: 60.01% - 32.81%

If Trump does so well that he wins Massachusetts, it's because the Democratic party chose to make complicity in a genocide a requirement for defeating him. It's because they said, if you want to defeat Trump, your only choice is to actively cast a vote for someone who will facilitate the murder of tens of thousands of civilians.

Well, first of all. No. If Trump wins MA it will not be because of people taking a principled stand over Palestinians. That's frankly preposterous. It'll be because Americans believe in autocracy, which is what he's running on.

I will never, ever forgive them for that.

Keep in mind that their position is way more friendly to your cause than the Republicans. So if you're making a list of people not to forgive, republicans should be listed first.

I care quite a lot about the murder of tens of thouasands of civilians. I also care about Americans, and all other humans.

Sure. But you're not voting in Israel. Kamala isn't VP or President of Israel. Israeli policy is not American policy, it is a sovereign country. American policy there has to do with our willingness to support them as an ally. But we don't get to tell them exactly what they can and cannot do, and they apparently want to murder a lot of people.

What we can do is, as you said, condition our support of them. And I think that negotiation is something Harris would not do the same way Biden would.

It is not my responsibility to sacrifice Palestinians for the safety and wellbeing of myself or my fellow citizens.

It's not up to you. The safety and wellbeing of Palestinians is being trampled at the hands of a country that is not yours, under direction you have almost no input to. Voting for Harris is not a sacrifice of Palestinian safety for yours. The outcome of this election will be Trump or Harris. A vote for Harris is progress on that issue, and also on your well being.

This is a trolley problem.

I love this so much. The trolley problem is one of my absolute favorites. But it's not the trolley problem. Israel is killing Palestinians whether you like it or not. You do not have a lever to pull against Israel. Short of entering into a war against Israel, I'd say the US does not have a lever as a nation either.

The US is not Israel. Kamala is not Netanyahu. You are not voting on Israeli military operations.

First of all, the Biden administration's "indication" of conditioning support is meaningless. They are already sending support, the genocide is already happening, and they are not conditioning the weapons or stopping them. That's all that matters.

You moved goalposts on me.

Harris has probably said plenty, everything except an actual change in policy.

I don't blame her for not trying to nail out exactly what an agreement with Israel might look like before she's had a chance to actually negotiate with them over anything.

It makes you complicit in the actions she has indicated she would take, such as supporting Israel unequivocally.

Kamala is not running on unequivocal support for Israel. You're mistaken in that. And it's part of the reason you're mistaken in being complicit in Netanyahu's decisions.

 

[Tornado]

So the "Kamala Harris (person with little actual political power) is as responsible for Gaza as Netanyahu so we might as well vote Trump" discourse has left Resetera, I see.

 

[Danoff]

Yes. He sometimes carries around a big toothbrush.

I didn't ask whether he was serious about gingivitis, I asked whether you were serious about it.

You said that a vote for the guy with the boot on his head, whose platform includes gingivitis, would not be entirely a joke. I asked whether you were serious about gingivitis.

I disagree comprehensively that it is clear a vote for Harris is a vote against Trump. A vote for Harris is counted as a vote for Harris - there is no space on the ballot for an essay explaining why you're voting for Harris.

Given the DNC's historically epic ability to completely misread the room, I have absolutely no confidence the DNC will understand that a large portion of any success they have this election is anything other than people loving them.

Well that doesn't seem reasonable.

The context in which you make your vote matters. There is a lot of love for Harris. But there is also a lot of hate for Trump. I agree with you that your vote can only say so much, which is why I don't see any possible reason to vote for gingivitis guy, unless gingivitis or boot wearing is a bigger issue for you than many other issues. Or unless you want to communicate a joke with your vote.

 

[dylansan]

Well, first of all. No. If Trump wins MA it will not be because of people taking a principled stand over Palestinians. That's frankly preposterous. It'll be because Americans believe in autocracy, which is what he's running on.

If Trump wins Massachusetts, it won't be because he's more popular than ever, it'll be because Harris is more unpopular than ever.

Trump isn't convincing Democrats to vote for him. Harris is convincing Democrats not to vote for her.

Keep in mind that their position is way more friendly to your cause than the Republicans. So if you're making a list of people not to forgive, republicans should be listed first.

Sure. But you're not voting in Israel. Kamala isn't VP or President of Israel. Israeli policy is not American policy, it is a sovereign country. American policy there has to do with our willingness to support them as an ally. But we don't get to tell them exactly what they can and cannot do, and they apparently want to murder a lot of people.

What we can do is, as you said, condition our support of them. And I think that negotiation is something Harris would not do the same way Biden would.

It's not up to you. The safety and wellbeing of Palestinians is being trampled at the hands of a country that is not yours, under direction you have almost no input to. Voting for Harris is not a sacrifice of Palestinian safety for yours. The outcome of this election will be Trump or Harris. A vote for Harris is progress on that issue, and also on your well being.

I love this so much. The trolley problem is one of my absolute favorites. But it's not the trolley problem. Israel is killing Palestinians whether you like it or not. You do not have a lever to pull against Israel. Short of entering into a war against Israel, I'd say the US does not have a lever as a nation either.

The US is not Israel. Kamala is not Netanyahu. You are not voting on Israeli military operations.

You moved goalposts on me.

I don't blame her for not trying to nail out exactly what an agreement with Israel might look like before she's had a chance to actually negotiate with them over anything.

Kamala is not running on unequivocal support for Israel. You're mistaken in that. And it's part of the reason you're mistaken in being complicit in Netanyahu's decisions.

Who decides whether the US sends weapons to Israel?

Does Israel decide that?

Or does the US decide that?

 

[Famine]

I'm sure that'll be a huge comfort to the remaining Palestinians.

I wouldn't presume to speak for them, but it seems unlikely that they'd take any comfort from which POTUS is supplying the weapons for their slaughter.

It's also not their choice, and if 45 returns as 47 it will become more and more likely it won't be yours either before too long. And we know what his response to protests against that will be, because he already told us when he suggested federal troops should shoot rioters in Minneapolis.

 

[Tornado]

I think you'd find Israel could easily make their own weapons regardless of if Kamala did throw her entire weight behind Israel as much as Biden has; with his pissant conditions on weapons sales that he wilts away from as soon as Republicans in Congress make any noise over it. Israel one of the strongest militaries in the world; sitting in a region where most of the rest of the countries have hand me down Russian equipment from the 1970s. Not voting for Harris won't stop them from picking fights with countries in the region unable to fight back


I would even say that it would stand to reason that Trump bragging openly about working with Netanyahu for months to sabotage ceasefire attempts to make Biden look weak (regardless of whether it is true) should go a long way towards telling you how much a protest vote against Democrats matters regarding what Israel is doing in Gaza; but here we are.

 

[Danoff]

Who decides whether the US sends weapons to Israel?

Does Israel decide that?

Or does the US decide that?

Who decides whether Israel kills Palestinians? Does the Israel decide that? Or does the US decide that?

Congress can authorize military aid to Israel for lots of reasons - including, as it happened, as a bargaining chip for military aid to Ukraine. The presidency has the ability to sign or veto an aid package as it is negotiated in congress.

Your ability to control Israel is essentially none. You have the ability to vote for Trump, Harris, or effectively abstain. None of those three options sends any kind of clear message on how you want the presidency to consider a particular aid package, mixed with various complications.

A better choice would be to protest (this is why it would be good to have a president that doesn't shoot protesters). Then you could write down your grievance clearly. Whatever you think you're doing to Israel by not voting in Massachusetts, you're not.

 

[Exorcet]

It makes you complicit in the actions she has indicated she would take, such as supporting Israel unequivocally.

The way the system currently works, baggage is unavoidable. I really want to change that and it's part of why I typically favor third parties. This year though I honestly think voting as strong as possible against Trump is the best way to eventually be able to reform the voting system and US political landscape into into something better. It was also already said but voting for Harris doesn't mean you have to accept all of her policies and remain silent when she does something you feel is wrong.

 

[Liquid]

The United States has essentially funded Israel's army for about 80 years whether you, I or we like it or not. It has been a constant in all of our lives, those of us alive reading this in 2024. If Harris (who isn't actually the incumbent President by the way) is having Israeli military aid applied against her, then the same must equally apply to the actual former President who actually did do it during his time in office.

 

[Tornado]

I wouldn't presume to speak for them, but it seems unlikely that they'd take any comfort from which POTUS is supplying the weapons for their slaughter.

It's also not their choice, and if 45 returns as 47 it will become more and more likely it won't be yours either before too long. And we know what his response to protests against that will be, because he already told us when he suggested federal troops should shoot rioters in Minneapolis.

And which, since it has largely been forgotten (and probably shouldn't have been) in the midst of the attempted government overthrow he tried months later, he has already done once and had to be talked out of shooting protestors over just so he could do a photo op:

 

[dylansan]

I wouldn't presume to speak for them, but it seems unlikely that they'd take any comfort from which POTUS is supplying the weapons for their slaughter.

It's also not their choice, and if 45 returns as 47 it will become more and more likely it won't be yours either before too long. And we know what his response to protests against that will be, because he already told us when he suggested federal troops should shoot rioters in Minneapolis.

You don't have to convince me of the dangers of Trump.

I just want to know if you'd tell a Palestinian in Michigan whose family members were killed in Gaza by American bombs that they should vote for Kamala.

Who decides whether Israel kills Palestinians? Does the Israel decide that? Or does the US decide that?

Israel, obviously. Is this supposed to be a gotcha? The whole point is that there are two complicit parties here, Israel carrying out the killing, and the US supplying weapons being used to do it. Israel's culpability does not absolve the US for its actions.

If you give a gun to a (known!) serial killer are you not complicit when they use it to murder people?

Congress can authorize military aid to Israel for lots of reasons - including, as it happened, as a bargaining chip for military aid to Ukraine. The presidency has the ability to sign or veto an aid package as it is negotiated in congress.

Your ability to control Israel is essentially none. You have the ability to vote for Trump, Harris, or effectively abstain. None of those three options sends any kind of clear message on how you want the presidency to consider a particular aid package, mixed with various complications.

A better choice would be to protest. Then you could write down your grievance clearly. Whatever you think you're doing to Israel by not voting in Massachusetts, you're not.

Thank you for the suggestion. I think I sent a clear message when I sent a literal message to the VP saying I would gladly vote for her if she stopped aid to Israel, but otherwise wouldn't. The truth is I don't feel any shame that my vote won't stop Israel. If my fellow Americans decide to elect Trump and ruin this country, that's on them. I refuse to support genocide to protect my own interests.

Israel sacrifices Palestinians for their own sense of safety. I won't do the same.

I think you'd find Israel could easily make their own weapons regardless of if Kamala did throw her entire weight behind Israel as much as Biden has;

All the more reason it's bizarre that Biden and Harris are so willing to throw away Muslim and Arab votes to support a country that apparently doesn't need our help.

 

[dylansan]

The way the system currently works, baggage is unavoidable. I really want to change that and it's part of why I typically favor third parties. This year though I honestly think voting as strong as possible against Trump is the best way to eventually be able to reform the voting system and US political landscape into into something better. It was also already said but voting for Harris doesn't mean you have to accept all of her policies and remain silent when she does something you feel is wrong.

"Baggage"

"International Affairs"

"Policy differences"

All very palatable ways to describe a genocide and the killing of tens of thousands of men, women and children.


We also have had four years of Biden. Can anyone describe a way that we're closer to voting reform or changing the political landscape? Because last I checked we were in danger of losing our Democracy...




I welcome any and all criticism of me if Harris loses Massachusetts. Rub my face in it. I'll deserve it. For now can we stop pretending that outcome is in any way likely?