2024 US Presidential Election Thread

[deththrasher]

You have a right to protest; you don't have a right to break into the Capitol building with the intent of hanging the Vice President and members of Congress. The moment anyone of those treasonist assholes stepped foot into the Capitol the military should've mowed them down since they were now enemies of the nation. Those who survived should've been hung for treason.

Wow, very old school viewpoint. I don't believe in capitol punishment but yes those people should remain in prison for a long time.

 

[HenrySwanson]

They'll believe anything if they're desperate. If they feel the living conditions could/should be better and the ruling party doesn't have a solution, then they'll start trying alternatives. Which may or may not work, but if it's unproven its worth a shot in many peoples eyes.

As far as I can see, this is how Meloni came into power in Italy. Italy's political scene had been a flustercuck for a few years, with nothing meaningful having been done by... well, any party, to improve the lives of Italians struggling with the problems of most western countries. Meloni comes up as an alternative, they vote her in in the hopes that she atleast achieves something.

Meaningful policies, and I guess also promoting them in a populistic manner, is how you attract voters. Just to give an example: "Billionaires have too much power, and we shall curtail them (aka eat the rich)!"

It's why Brits need to take the threat of Reform or the Tories under Badenoch seriously now instead of being complacent because of the results of the last election.

 

[Joey D]

Wow, very old school viewpoint. I don't believe in capitol punishment but yes those people should remain in prison for a long time.

Traitors should be put to death since it's part of US federal law per 18 USC 2381:

§2381. Treason​

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Despite what some say, it doesn't actually say they should "hang" but traditionally that was the punishment. I don't see why we should change that as being a traitor is perhaps the worst offense you can commit against your country. Although, half the country seems to think that a known traitor is good presidential material.

As for shooting the people who breached the floor of Congress, when they went through that door, they were no longer criminals; they were actively engaging in an act of war against the United States as enemy combatants. We don't need to treat enemies the same way we treat criminals since how we deal with criminals is spelled out in the Constitution. It was no different than the Civil War; once the Confederacy decided to be an enemy nation, we didn't need to treat them the same way anymore.

 

[Fezzik]

It's why Brits need to take the threat of Reform or the Tories under Badenoch seriously now instead of being complacent because of the results of the last election.

Her history suggests she'll focus more on culture wars than economic issues. Don't actually see her making it to the next election as Tory leader - too unpopular with her own side. Many big beasts on the backbenches ready to knife her, plus the ever present threat of Boris.

Do agree with your point - Labour need to be lazer focused on the economy and cost-of-living.

 

[TexRex]

It was no different than the Civil War; once the Confederacy decided to be an enemy nation, we didn't need to treat them the same way anymore.

I feel like conservatives might be very different today had Sherman burned the South more completely.

 

[Strittan]

Traitors should be put to death since it's part of US federal law per 18 USC 2381:



Despite what some say, it doesn't actually say they should "hang" but traditionally that was the punishment. I don't see why we should change that as being a traitor is perhaps the worst offense you can commit against your country. Although, half the country seems to think that a known traitor is good presidential material.

As for shooting the people who breached the floor of Congress, when they went through that door, they were no longer criminals; they were actively engaging in an act of war against the United States as enemy combatants. We don't need to treat enemies the same way we treat criminals since how we deal with criminals is spelled out in the Constitution. It was no different than the Civil War; once the Confederacy decided to be an enemy nation, we didn't need to treat them the same way anymore.

Let’s pretend they did everything you say. How would you be better off today? Would your country be in a better state? Would the Trump supporters be less violent, let alone less delusional?

 

[TexRex]

Let’s pretend they did everything you say. How would you be better off today? Would your country be in a better state?

Why is this relevant?

Would the Trump supporters be less violent, let alone less delusional?

Yes? No? Who cares? Rabid animals should be put down anyway.

 

[Sprite]

Also I'm not your "darling"!

 

[Danoff]

It’s not right, but if they simply don’t know better I can’t say I would blame them.

I do. They're adults. They're responsible for their actions.

I’ll admit, I didn’t follow her campaign closely. I heard bits and pieces. Thing is though, I think for most people here it didn’t really matter what kinda campaign she ran on (as long as it wasn’t too out there, that is). What mattered was that she wasn’t Trump. Whoever isn’t Trump should get the votes. And as it turned out, that wasn’t enough.

You didn't follow her campaign very well and you want me to accept your criticism of it anyway? You're part of the problem then. A big problem in the last election is that people weren't listening. You also weren't listening, and you want to excuse people who weren't listening because you weren't. It doesn't seem to stop you (or them) from having opinions on the matter.

If you don't know what you're talking about, keep your opinion to yourself and listen to others.

Ignorance is not a virtue. It's not my responsibility to educate you. It's your responsibility to inform yourself, and you should make sure that your opinions are formed based on actual understanding rather than nonsense next time you venture them.

It can be a good idea but I think it depends on who you coalesce with. Doing it with Cheney wasn’t a good idea – he may be critical of Trump but I think most people associate him more with his role in the War on Terror than him being critical of Trump. To be fair, I may or may not be overestimating his influence in this election, but I would not be surprised if it was a contributing factor to her defeat.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

Dick did not campaign with Harris. He endorsed her on his own. His daughter campaigned with Harris, but his daughter is not him.

...except I never missed that part? Thanks for stating the laughably obvious fact that this election indeed was about democracy vs dictatorship. I think most people here are on the same page on that one. Clearly thoinfantilizingugh, 15-18 million potential voters didn’t feel the same way

I think they did feel the same way and didn't care. But even if I take your statement at face value, their ignorance has consequences, and they're responsible for that. There was no shortage of information about it.

As I said, blaming the voters goes nowhere and solves nothing.

You misunderstand. I'm not trying to solve anything. There is no course of action here that I can take. There are courses that Biden can take, but that's another matter. I'm just refusing to go along with your misplaced blame. You wanted to play the blame game, but you blamed the wrong people. I'm just helping you to understand that you need to move your finger over if you want to get it right. Feel free to put it down if you want.

Blaming the people who want them to either not vote or vote for them on the other hand? Blaming the people for not doing a good job attracting voters? That should be where the focus is.

That's just absurd. I'm not blaming Kamala for the fact that people voted for a rapist.

Far-right parties keep getting elected worldwide not cuz the voters has suddenly turned into rabid racists, but its cuz the mainstream parties struggle to effectively lead a country in a way that’s satisfactory. They keep doing a ”managed decline”, but not something like a "managed improvement". Most people aren’t too inclined politically, they just notice what’s going on around them (and what the media says, but that’s another ballgame). If they notice that their surroundings isn’t doing great, and none of the parties except the far-right promise improvements, well guess what. They’ll vote far-right. Yes the far-right doesn’t tend to effectively lead countries either – hence why unless with hefty media manipulation they lose out after a while, but if it’s a recurring cycle, doesn’t that tell more of the far-right's opposition than anything else?

You were doing so well right up until the end of that statement. No, it tells me that voters are stupid.

That they’re unable to reliably secure leadership beyond maybe one term? It’s like the old Simpsons meme of the Democrats being ”unable to govern”.

The thesis here is that people are ungovernable other than through force and stripped freedom. And I think you can make that point, not sure why you want to make it, but I think you can based on plenty of evidence at hand. I prefer to be optimistic about people but it's hard right now. They're doing their best at cultivating my cynicism. But excusing voters is not the solution. The only way people can do a better job under democracy is by voting more intelligently. If we're unable to do that, democracy dies. A big one just did.

In a democracy, people govern themselves. If they can't manage it, that's bad for humanity. I prefer to think that they can manage it, but they need to take responsibility for their own state if that's going to happen. In other words, you're not helping.

It's why Hitler won in the 1930s, it's why Trump won now. Voters may not learn from history, but clearly political parties don't learn from history either by the looks of it.

Absent any actual reasoning you blame the people trying to improve the situation for the poor decisions of others. Even when those decisions are made in the most obvious environment humanly possible. You're doing this in order, for some reason that I cannot fathom, to avoid putting the blame on the people who make the poor decision. You need to examine your motives.

This may have been a looooong ramble (and post). I don't know what else to add so I'll leave it here.

I'll add something. People are not mindless zombies that exist to be manipulated by political parties. They're adults, and they can make informed decisions. When they don't, they own that. Stop infantilizing.

 

[Joey D]

Let’s pretend they did everything you say. How would you be better off today? Would your country be in a better state? Would the Trump supporters be less violent, let alone less delusional?

I don't need to pretend. I watched it unfold live on TV, and there are numerous photographs and recordings of Congressmen and women's phone calls available.

Would the country be better off? Yes, it would have fewer treasonists because they'd be dead. Fewer people would actively want to engage in that behavior again because they saw the consequences. Right now, they know they can effectively get a slap on the wrist. A few months in jail isn't going to dissuade someone, but a fully armed soldier and being labeled an enemy of the state might convince some that it's not worth it.

Would Trump supporters be less violent? Who knows, maybe? But if we followed the letter of the law, Trump would be in prison for treason (I don't think they would've executed him), or at the very least, he would be ineligible to run for office. The US code for treason isn't vague like some laws; it spells out very clearly what the punishment is right down to putting a monetary figure on it.

 

[TexRex]

(I don't think they would've executed him)

SAD

 

[Danoff]

Let’s pretend they did everything you say. How would you be better off today? Would your country be in a better state? Would the Trump supporters be less violent, let alone less delusional?

I was shocked and appalled that tear gas and rubber bullets weren't used. The reason is because some actors within the government and police wanted the rioters to succeed in killing congress and the vice president in order to keep Trump in power. We should have been prepared, but we were corrupted.

 

[Touring Mars]

I don't believe in capitol punishment

Clearly neither does Trump. Capital punishment, on the other hand...

 

[HenrySwanson]

I'll add something. People are not mindless zombies that exist to be manipulated by political parties. They're adults, and they can make informed decisions. When they don't, they own that. Stop infantilizing.

I wish that was true.

 

[Danoff]

I wish that was true.

You need to consider how much your dehumanization of people is poisoning your mental state and your political outlook.

 

[Exorcet]

They'll believe anything if they're desperate. If they feel the living conditions could/should be better and the ruling party doesn't have a solution, then they'll start trying alternatives. Which may or may not work, but if it's unproven its worth a shot in many peoples eyes.

Apparently so. Turning to untested solutions in a tough situation is one thing but if there no attempt to assess the validity of these alternatives at all then people are just waiting to be taken advantage of. The unwillingness to evaluate information before accepting it needs to be done away with. Unless that happens I don't see how you can rely on people to vote sensibly.

 

[Scaff]

OK. so lets set a reference point for Trumps election promises that was we can track them and it will serve as a citation point for the inevitable time (based on his time as 45) when people start claiming he never said x or y.

Deport Undocumented Migrants (+ Wall Pt2)
This is going to involve 10m+ people in the US, no actual details of how this will be achieved, he has also said that he would seek the death penalty for any undocumented migrant who kills a US citizen. In addition he has promised to complete the building of the border wall. The costs of such a programme have been estimated to cost over $300billion, and that's without the impact on the US economy of removing these people.

The Economy
First up we have more tax cuts coming, let's see who will actually be the biggest beneficiaries of these and by what degree. That's along with the proposed minimum tariff of 10% on imports (heading up to 60% for China), which will (no if here) impact the price that US consumers pay on imported goods, expect a lot of stuff to get more expensive. Then we have Trumps promise to "end inflation", again without any deals of how, or realisation that tariffs will impact on the ability to do this.

Climate Action
Drill, drill, drill and go biggly on fossil fuels. Putting the US at odds with, well pretty much the rest of the planet. which the Chinese will use to grow their lead on green technology even more, a lead they took thanks to Trumps actions in his first term.

Ukraine & Palestine
24 hours, that's how long he says it will take him to end the war in Ukraine. He's also promised to end the conflict between Israel, Palestine etc. As always no details on how he will do either of these, but no funding to Ukraine, an even freer hand to Israel with more toys of war for them both seem likely.

No Abortion Ban
Yeah he said no federal abortion ban, I suspect this will not prove to be true in reality and with Comstock looking like a route that will be taken to ensure an effective federal ban becomes a reality.

Pardon Jan 6 Insurrectionists
Well it's only fair they also get to get away with attempting to overthrow the government in the same way he did.

Outstanding Legal Issues
Trump was set himself the target of firing Jack Smith within two seconds of taking office, so that certainly seems a priority. Next step is almost certainly getting his federal cases dismissed, and then it's to work undermining the state ones as well. I suspect these will remain living rent-free in his head for quite a while.


So there we are, Trumps to-do list, most of which will screw the US and impacts the world as well. All this without even mentioning Project 2025, which of course he knows nothing about (which of course require you to ignore that most of those involved are his old team, well the ones he liked, and have remained in close contact with his current team).

 

[HenrySwanson]

You need to consider how much your dehumanization of people is poisoning your mental state and your political outlook.

Language, shared mentalities and other things that separate people into groups are far more powerful than the individual in the real world, unfortunately.

Seeing the person in front of you and having compassion is how a person should live but too many don't have that ability.

If you want to beat something democratically you have to be realistic and play to the mob.

 

[Fezzik]

Outstanding Legal Issues
Trump was set himself the target of firing Jack Smith within two seconds of taking office, so that certainly seems a priority. Next step is almost certainly getting his federal cases dismissed, and then it's to work undermining the state ones as well. I suspect these will remain living rent-free in his head for quite a while.

Federal cases won't be an issue

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/06/trump-jack-smith-exit-strategy-00188108

 

[Danoff]

Language, shared mentalities and other things that separate people into groups are far more powerful than the individual in the real world, unfortunately.

Seeing the person in front of you and having compassion is how a person should live but too many don't have that ability.

If you want to beat something democratically you have to be realistic and play to the mob.

The mob needs to be educated. They're not zombies to manipulate, they're human beings. Education is effectively how the US failed.

 

[Famine]

On a broad scale, and away from considerations of how, who, where, when, and deadly force is authorised and necessary*, had more insurrectionists been killed during January 6th it would have been A Good Thing.

Firstly, it would have sent a pretty significant message about what happens when you try stuff like that and the approximate level of wisdom of trying it again. There also wouldn't have been this drawn-out procedure over identifying, finding, arresting, charging, and prosecution; pretty hard to deny you were there when your corpse was marked out on the floor.

More bigly, it would have been harder to deny for others too. The one who did get her just desserts was almost immediately written off by Trumpers as "antifa" posing as a Trumper. A larger bodycount would have made that denial significantly more difficult (but far from impossible given that these people deny objective truth).

As distasteful and bloodthirsty as it sounds.


*Like when it's a rent-a-cop facing a black kid holding a clarinet outside a concert hall at dusk; obvious case for deadly force in the USA

 

[Scaff]

Federal cases won't be an issue

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/06/trump-jack-smith-exit-strategy-00188108

An anonymous info dump would be nice....


....just saying.

 

[HenrySwanson]

The mob needs to be educated. They're not zombies to manipulate, they're human beings. Education is effectively how the US failed.

Look where Israel is heading. You think Israelis need to be educated more?

 

[Blitz24]

Federal cases won't be an issue

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/06/trump-jack-smith-exit-strategy-00188108

Smith will probably stop the investigation long before January 20th. Won't matter to Trump though, as he will perceive this as against him personally (and not against his illegal actions specifically) and will try to find a way to imprison/make life hell for Smith. The Georgia case might be done completely as they won't be able to go any further. The hush money payment sentencing probably will be tossed out completely even though he was found guilty. The defamation lawsuit penalty will either be suspended or also thrown out because apparently actions made years before one becomes president also count for presidential immunity.

 

[Danoff]

On a broad scale, and away from considerations of how, who, where, when, and deadly force is authorised and necessary*, had more insurrectionists been killed during January 6th it would have been A Good Thing.

Firstly, it would have sent a pretty significant message about what happens when you try stuff like that and the approximate level of wisdom of trying it again. There also wouldn't have been this drawn-out procedure over identifying, finding, arresting, charging, and prosecution; pretty hard to deny you were there when your corpse was marked out on the floor.

More bigly, it would have been harder to deny for others too. The one who did get her just desserts was almost immediately written off by Trumpers as "antifa" posing as a Trumper. A larger bodycount would have made that denial significantly more difficult (but far from impossible given that these people deny objective truth).

As distasteful and bloodthirsty as it sounds.


*Like when it's a rent-a-cop facing a black kid holding a clarinet outside a concert hall at dusk; obvious case for deadly force in the USA

I'm not going to argue with that. But we have non-lethal means of riot control like tear gas and rubber bullets. Doing that would have been even better than a bloodbath, because then the insurrectionists just failed and don't even get to be martyrs.

 

[Scaff]

A film clip soundbite doesn't really act as a solid source.

Look where Israel is heading. You think Israelis need to be educated more?

Yes, 100%. The teaching of the roots of the conflict is as biased in Israel as it is in Palestine.

It's exactly why the right in the UK doesn't want an honest teaching of the history of the empire in the UK.

 

[Joey D]

I'm not going to argue with that. But we have non-lethal means of riot control like tear gas and rubber bullets. Doing that would have been even better than a bloodbath, because then the insurrectionists just failed and don't even get to be martyrs.

If it'd been a riot, I would agree, but the people who actively got onto the floor of the Capitol on January 6th were then to kill members of Congress and overthrow the government. In my opinion, it's not a riot at that point; it's an engagement by enemy forces. Also, breaking into the offices of members of Congress and stealing things, some of which was likely classified information, also seems like an enemy action. We should've used tear gas and rubber bullets outside the Capitol and NATO rounds inside the Capitol. Those on the outside were belligerent idiots simping for their cult daddy. Those inside the Capitol were attacking the United States.

Would it have turned the people into martyrs? Absolutely. But I think it would've had more of an effect on convincing people not to 🤬 around and find out. Now, it seems like you can attempt to overthrow the US government and get off with a few months in prison and a few thousand dollars in fines. That's a small price to pay if you want to topple the country. While we're not in any danger of that this coming January 6th because I can't see anti-Trumpers doing that, who's to say it won't happen again during the next election. We needed to show that we do not tolerated the Gravy Seals attempting to take down the most powerful country in the world.

 

[Danoff]

If it'd been a riot, I would agree, but the people who actively got onto the floor of the Capitol on January 6th were then to kill members of Congress and overthrow the government. In my opinion, it's not a riot at that point; it's an engagement by enemy forces. Also, breaking into the offices of members of Congress and stealing things, some of which was likely classified information, also seems like an enemy action. We should've used tear gas and rubber bullets outside the Capitol and NATO rounds inside the Capitol. Those on the outside were belligerent idiots simping for their cult daddy. Those inside the Capitol were attacking the United States.

Would it have turned the people into martyrs? Absolutely. But I think it would've had more of an effect on convincing people not to 🤬 around and find out. Now, it seems like you can attempt to overthrow the US government and get off with a few months in prison and a few thousand dollars in fines. That's a small price to pay if you want to topple the country. While we're not in any danger of that this coming January 6th because I can't see anti-Trumpers doing that, who's to say it won't happen again during the next election. We needed to show that we do not tolerated the Gravy Seals attempting to take down the most powerful country in the world.

They don't get in the capitol at all if tear gas and rubber bullets were used when the riot started. It's ridiculous that it was allowed to get that far.

 

[opelgt1969]

Famine I'm not the one that combined my post! The wall will keep them from illegally entering without proper papers like it's supposed to be proper and simple! The only thing Obama's flunkies have done is raise the prices on everything and send our tax dollars for one murderer and one crazy guy to blow only to beg for more. How do you think your country will do when you have to start paying your share into NATO. I think all NATO members need to payback payments that Obama was too weak to enforce

Don't tell me you're not smart enough to understand that the planes are to transport them back to their homeland. Our air defense would not allow an unknown plane from coming in ,unless it so low that it's under the radar.

 

[Scaff]

Don't tell me you're not ite

Wut?