2024 US Presidential Election Thread

  • Thread starter ryzno
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Have you voted yet?

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Don’t wanne be offending someone.
From a neutral perspective your current election looks like a freaking horror show for me.
One guy maybe forgets he is even nominated and the other guy is a loose cannon.
But on the bright side my government is not a little bit better.
 
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The Sprawl
Afghanistan, Sudan, pick a name out of the hat of a country that's gone tits up over the last century and if it's not an explicitly socialist country then you could make a convincing argument that by definition it has to be a capitalism.
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Capitalism is not a system of government. I know, you can find examples of people using the term in that way, and I know that it's commonly referred to that way. But capitalism itself, if you actually look at what it entails, is just a description of economic interaction between free people. It does not prescribe a system of government and it relies on one to function. The US, for example, is often referred to as capitalist, but it's just referred to that way because it values a free market exchange in many areas. The US is a constitutionally limited democratic republic, that's our actual government. Not capitalist, and "capitalist" doesn't begin to describe it.

So Afghanistan, or whatever, is also not a "capitalist" society. In some cases you're referring to dictatorships, or anarchy, etc. Just because some level of capitalism takes place within it, doesn't mean that the society has a capitalist government or economic system. Capitalism for example takes place within China, and I don't think it's fair to refer to China as a capitalist society. I also don't think it's fair to call it communist - because when I was there I noticed that people used currency and had personal property in different amounts.

Of the top 10 GDP countries in the world, only China and Russia seem to be debatable as not socialist. And even for those two an argument can be made.
 
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Rodgers when he heard the news and realized he still needed to play football for the Jets.

Tired Green Bay Packers GIF by Martellus Bennett's Text Back Pack
 
A lifelong Democrat, but changed heel listening to RFK Jr. (even though she admitted she was not initially fond of him)? Claims to have suffered significant health issues from the Covid vaccine, yet is also boosted. Says her daughter is up on all her vaccines, but pharmaceuticals contribute to autisim.

She's so phony & clearly trying to buy her way into politics, and RFK Jr. needs money.
 
McLaren
A lifelong Democrat, but changed heel listening to RFK Jr. (even though she admitted she was not initially fond of him)? Claims to have suffered significant health issues from the Covid vaccine, yet is also boosted. Says her daughter is up on all her vaccines, but pharmaceuticals contribute to autisim.

She's so phony & clearly trying to buy her way into politics, and RFK Jr. needs money.
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And claims she wasn't having an affair with Musk, but talking to him about using Neurolink to 'fix' her autistic daughter (which warrants an automatic dislike from me).
 
Bit of a snarky reply, but I'll have another go

You were asking for examples of Communism being implemented partially. I've given you examples. You live in one right now.

Of course, if you just define 'communism' as 'any country that implements every single part of the definition of Communism, completely and wholly' then it's unsurprising that you don't notice anywhere in the world where it's implemented partially. Because you've just defined those countries out of existence before you've started. But that's like looking out at the world and saying 'why are there NO good wigs??'. Well the definition of a good wig is that it's invisible, so it's defined by its invisibility. And if you define any country as a binary system that can either be wholly communist or not communist at all...then it's understable that you don't end up seeing any in-between cases. But that's because you've smuggled your conclusion into your premises.

The truth is that so many ideas from Communism are around us all the time, like I said. Same with fascism. America is not a fascist country, but there are lots of elements of it at work in the political system, especially recently. It's irrelevant whether you want to distinguish between communism or socialism; you just can't deny that ideas from both are ubiquitous in the western world.

Countries are not binary systems that are either one thing or the other. We often talk about them as such, but that's a shorthand that we use because the actual truth is so complex and multifaceted. The actual truth is that they're relational systems that slowly shift and change shape over time. Imagine a murmuration of starlings, slowed down so that the process takes place over decades. The starlings are the individual political ideas that define the country, and the country is the shape represented by that cloud of birds. It shifts and narrows and widens and overlaps. But it's never still and it's never just one basic idea to the total exclusion of another. Even the idea of a wholly communist country or a wholly fascist country is naive. It's just not how the world works. Countries are constructed from a confluence of thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of political ideas all rubbing up against one another and influencing one another in emergent ways.

So TL DR: yeah, nah.
 
Danoff
Capitalism is not a system of government. I know, you can find examples of people using the term in that way, and I know that it's commonly referred to that way. But capitalism itself, if you actually look at what it entails, is just a description of economic interaction between free people. It does not prescribe a system of government and it relies on one to function. The US, for example, is often referred to as capitalist, but it's just referred to that way because it values a free market exchange in many areas. The US is a constitutionally limited democratic republic, that's our actual government. Not capitalist, and "capitalist" doesn't begin to describe it.

So Afghanistan, or whatever, is also not a "capitalist" society. In some cases you're referring to dictatorships, or anarchy, etc. Just because some level of capitalism takes place within it, doesn't mean that the society has a capitalist government or economic system. Capitalism for example takes place within China, and I don't think it's fair to refer to China as a capitalist society. I also don't think it's fair to call it communist - because when I was there I noticed that people used currency and had personal property in different amounts.

Of the top 10 GDP countries in the world, only China and Russia seem to be debatable as not socialist. And even for those two an argument can be made.
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Agreed, it's not a system of government, but I didn't say it was. It's still an utterly fundamental part of the makeup of a country, sometimes more fundamental to its functioning than its actual goverment(if the country even has one), so the idea that we can just ignore the failures of these capitalist countries is specious to me.
 
The Sprawl
You were asking for examples of Communism being implemented partially. I've given you examples. You live in one right now.
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If this is directed at me then I live in a partially socialist country. From what I understand, socialism isn't communism until the state hasn't eliminated free movement of the economy and established an authoritarian dictatorship of the proletariat. This article from Britannica sees communism as an end goal rather than a transitional stage.
www.britannica.com

Which countries are communist? | Britannica

Which countries are communist? At one time about one-third of the world's population lived under communist governments, most notably in the republics
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com
Britannica
At one time about one-third of the world's population lived under communist governments, most notably in the republics of the Soviet Union. Today communism is the official form of government in only five countries: China, North Korea, Laos, Cuba, and Vietnam. However, none of these meet the true definition of communism. Instead, they can be said to be in a transitional stage between the end of capitalism and the establishment of communism. Such a phase was outlined by Karl Marx, and it came to include the creation of a dictatorship of the proletariat. While all five countries have authoritarian governments, their commitment to abolishing capitalism is debatable.
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The rest of your post seems to me to go on to argue that I said there was no such thing as a mixed economy ("no good wigs"). This is pretty much the opposite of what I said. The whole point of my previous post was to say that mixed economies are partly socialist, not partly communist for the reasons given above.

Everything else seems to me to read as a sematics argument on whether socialism and communism are terms which can be used interchangeably. As far as I know from reading this thread, that isn't the case hence my previous quote from @Danoff.
 
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The Sprawl
The truth is that so many ideas from Communism are around us all the time, like I said. Same with fascism. America is not a fascist country, but there are lots of elements of it at work in the political system, especially recently. It's irrelevant whether you want to distinguish between communism or socialism; you just can't deny that ideas from both are ubiquitous in the western world.
Click to expand...

You've done the opposite of what you were just complaining about - defining it so broadly that you can't help but see it everywhere. If I donate money to the poor am I borrowing an idea from communism? If the government taxes me and gives the money to the poor is it borrowing an idea from communism? Both of those concepts pre-date communism.

Communism as a word actually has a meaning, and you need to maintain some semblance of that meaning to have a reasonable discussion.

The Sprawl
Even the idea of a wholly communist country or a wholly fascist country is naive. It's just not how the world works. Countries are constructed from a confluence of thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of political ideas all rubbing up against one another and influencing one another in emergent ways.
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This is actually naive. Many countries throughout history have just been "whatever that guy says goes". Your "confluence of thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of political ideas" sounds like a nation that has at least some protections for freedom of speech and representation. The fact that you think this is how countries are constructed strikes me as privilege, stemming from living in a culture that actually fosters and enables that kind of political discourse and input. Countries can be made of those things, but they don't have to be, and most haven't been.

The Sprawl
Agreed, it's not a system of government, but I didn't say it was. It's still an utterly fundamental part of the makeup of a country, sometimes more fundamental to its functioning than its actual goverment(if the country even has one), so the idea that we can just ignore the failures of these capitalist countries is specious to me.
Click to expand...

This misunderstands capitalism fundamentally. But don't take that personally, this misunderstanding is ubiquitous. Capitalism is just a description of economic activity with some degree of freedom. It's what people do in the slack in the system. You say it's fundamental to the functioning of the government, but it's just what happens. It wasn't going to be any other way. And it's not going to fail, it can't fail, it's just what happens. If "capitalism" fails, it's actually the government structure around that slack that failed. Capitalism just occurs - even within communism. "Capitalism failed" is like saying "chemistry failed" when your experiment doesn't turn out. It can't fail, it's just what happens. The setup was where the failure was.

So your perspective on these "third world" countries you were referring to is entirely backward. They're examples of various government structures (such as a dictatorship or anarchy) failing capitalism. Not the other way around. Capitalism just occurs in whatever space is left for free exchange.

Edit:

When people say "capitalism failed" referring to the US, what they're actually saying is that the US's particular blend of socialism is failing in some kind of specific way.
 
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Pupik
So you're supporting the guy that lost his job due to poor job performance, claimed he won despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, sent his buddies to vandalize the workplace, essentially committed treason to our nation, and you want him back in charge of the executive office of the United States?

The rest of us aren't eating your steady diet of Loser Chow. Find some sustenance.
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1711581701962.png


None of what you said is actually true. Get a grip. :rolleyes:
 
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sturk0167
None of what you said is actually true. Get a grip. :rolleyes:
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All of that is, in fact, true.

I mean you can think what Trump did was right (all that does is make you a traitor to the nation), but it doesn't change the fact that what @Pupik said is factual. Trump did lose the election, he claimed he won the election despite overwhelming evidence that shows he didn't, he did send his buddies and followers to terrorize the Capitol and try to kill members of Congress, and has committed treason against the nation.
 
Joey D
Trump did lose the election, he claimed he won the election despite overwhelming evidence that shows he didn't, he did send his buddies and followers to terrorize the Capitol and try to kill members of Congress, and has committed treason against the nation.
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All of that is crap, too.
 
sturk0167
The 2020 election was a scam.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. It's what I believe to be the truth. That's all
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So you just ignore the overwhelming evidence that shows it was not a scam then? That's certainly...a belief.

What evidence do you have that says it was a scam? Almost all the voter fraud has been from Republicans and even then it wasn't enough to tip the balance.

Also, did you forget that Trump is on the phone asking to find more votes in Georgia? Even if everything else is a sham, he's on the phone asking saying the things you dismiss as crap. Was that AI or something?
 
sturk0167
Vote counting in Philadelphia is halted at something like 1:00 am (when Trump is leading), then is resumed hours later, when all of a sudden Biden gets a boost of hundreds of thousands of votes. :rolleyes:
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Cry more:


The confusion seemed to originate on Twitter when independent reporter Max Marin, who is based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, tweeted at 9:30pm (0230 GMT): “No more mail ballot results tonight.”

Marin's tweet was quoted in the New York Post article, headlined “Philadelphia stops counting mail-in ballots for the night”.
Marin has since said on Twitter that he deleted his original tweet to avoid any further confusion (here) , and emphasized in another tweet (here) that counting goes on 24/7, but the results are not constantly updated.
Ballot counting in Philadelphia is live streamed on YouTube (Philadelphia City Commissioners Live Stream) .
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sturk0167
Vote counting in Philadelphia is halted at something like 1:00 am (when Trump is leading), then is resumed hours later, when all of a sudden Biden gets a boost of hundreds of thousands of votes. :rolleyes:
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This particular example doesn't seem sufficient to declare the whole election (does that include all the Republicans voted in during the same election, or just Democrats/Biden?) a "scam"... but then it is a Trump-promoted conspiracy theory which doesn't bear any connection to reality.

Additionally, the slow count of mail-in ballots in the Pennsylvania election was as a result of one party blocking the early drop-off and counting of mail-in ballots.

Guess which?
In the months leading up to the election, Democrats tried to pass legislation that would allow mail-in ballots to be processed before election day. Many other states made similar rule changes to avoid a rush of ballots in one day. But Republicans in Pennsylvania’s GOP-controlled state legislature blocked those efforts.
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We keep seeing this from you. You verbalise something that's a talking point among the red-hats which has no basis in evidence, you're shown the evidence that it's not true, claim to have accepted the evidence that it's not true, then return to do the same on another one.

I wonder when you're going to realise that everything you've been fed is absolute tripe.
 
Famine
We keep seeing this from you. You verbalise something that's a talking point among the red-hats which has no basis in evidence, you're shown the evidence that it's not true, claim to have accepted the evidence that it's not true, then return to do the same on another one.
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I searched, but the evidence has been wiped from Google.
They only show stuff from NYT, CNN, NPR, etc... none of which actually does impartial reporting.
I can do the smell test. I knew, at the time that it didn't seem right.

My heels are dug in, and it hasn't changed.
My viewpoint may never be proven, but it's what I believe to be true.
 
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