Kazunori Yamauchi Monaco Interview: The Role AI Plays in GT Sport's BOP and Penalty Systems

[GTPNewsWire]

This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:

Kazunori Yamauchi Monaco Interview: The Role AI Plays in GT Sport's BOP and Penalty Systems

This article was published by Andrew Evans (@Famine) on November 29th, 2018 in the Gran Turismo Sport category.

 

[Clay_GT_17]

Still a work in progress but it serves a good purpose. Now please let’s get SPA in the game.

 

[VeeDoubleU]

“The simplest aspect to it the system is always looking at and comparing how much time gain there was by making that shortcut as compared to the lap time of an AI."

That's part of the problem. The AI is incredibly poor, at many aspects. Pace, awareness, racecraft etc

So a slight cut might actually gain a driver only a few tenths, but because the AI is going 6 seconds slower in that sector, the driver is penalised 6 seconds? Honestly not a good system. Maybe if the AI was actually Intelligent, it would be more sensible.

Also, AI being used for BOP to an extent partially explains why tyre wear and fuel wear aren't looked at as much, or how some cars have really poor default gearing for example. The AI can't tell you that.

 

[Cosbuster]

You'd think this would be a pretty good reason on its own to improve the horrendous AI...

 

[Auditore]

Also, AI being used for BOP to an extent partially explains why tyre wear and fuel wear aren't looked at as much, or how some cars have really poor default gearing for example. The AI can't tell you that.

But the top drivers can which makes all these problems very confusing,the drivers that work for PD don't tell them about the tire/fuel problems?

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

As an analogy, if you rob a bank and get caught by the police, you can't just say, okay, here is the money back. Actually, just don't cut. I think over-penalty is the way to go. You gain 3 seconds by cutting, you get 6 or 10 seconds penalty. That's very fair, just don't cut.

 

[Auditore]

This looks like a dramatic cutscene before the final boss in a game

 

[VeeDoubleU]

You gain 3 seconds by cutting, you get 6 or 10 seconds penalty. That's very fair, just don't cut.

At the recent FIA Finals, if a driver accidentaly went wide at a chicane, gaining a fraction of time, they got an instant 6 second penalty (which actually is even more with the penalty zones), with no chance to manually slow down or correct their mistake. It wasn't a purpose cut.

Meanwhile in the same race, drivers would ram others off the track and get a smaller penalty.

So, it isn't as simple as you suggest.

 

[Famine]

This looks like a dramatic cutscene before the final boss in a game

Who's the boss, me or Yamauchi?

 

[Auditore]

Who's the boss, me or Yamauchi?

He's the final boss and you're the Penalty AI

 

[Lord Protector]

Seems legit to use the AI as a reference when AI drives like a drunk pig, with zero space awareness and cheating on top of it I suspect that’s the reason for some unaccaptable time penalty given for example before the straights at Le Mans, where cutting the corner results in a 16 seconds penalty.AI drives like a granny thru it and so it lacks the speed on straight. Hence the harsh punishment.

 

[Silver_Wolf]

I must admit I also though that photo was an interesting one though the final boss comment I hadn't thought of.

Tis interesting to see that my own determinations of the penalty system are confirmed by Kaz in this article, I always thought there was
a factor involving the AI when it came to penalties and the inconsistency of them sometimes though I do feel those determinations are
a little better now than previous.

I guess it's time to start paying attention to where the wheels are on the track to ensure minimal penalties from now on!

 

[Auditore]

Seems legit to use the AI as a reference when AI drives like a drunk pig, with zero space awareness and cheating on top of it I suspect that’s the reason for some unaccaptable time penalty given for example before the straights at Le Mans, where cutting the corner results in a 16 seconds penalty.AI drives like a granny thru it and so it lacks the speed on straight. Hence the harsh punishment.

So let's theorize a bit,if the AI was faster,more agressive and aware of its surroundings the penalty system and BoP would be better?Because that seems to be Kaz implication.

 

[JTB10000]

Sounds like he's accepted how slow the A.I. is and doesn't plan on doing anything about it. Would be really nice if they used their in-house top drivers' data to adjust all of the poor lines and speeds the A.I. takes through a lot of corners but I guess the human/online element of GTS is too much of a priority.

 

[anthonyfa18]

Balance of Performance (BoP) Update pleas

we need a lot of this, Pleas Kazunori Yamauchi Nsx GR.3 need more power. and we need more sport mode events too i would love to have a gr4 or Gr2 cup in sport mode. i hope 2019 will be full of fun updates, Tracks and Cars and bGt auto for Race car maintenance and adding aero parts for the cars.

 

[RacingFan1]

Seems legit to use the AI as a reference when AI drives like a drunk pig, with zero space awareness and cheating on top of it I suspect that’s the reason for some unaccaptable time penalty given for example before the straights at Le Mans, where cutting the corner results in a 16 seconds penalty.AI drives like a granny thru it and so it lacks the speed on straight. Hence the harsh punishment.

Yep AI is a bit ridiculous, not only because they seem drunk drivers, but also they do the same driving lines whether its a formula car or a little Fiat 500.

 

[Brzlav]

As an analogy, if you rob a bank and get caught by the police, you can't just say, okay, here is the money back. Actually, just don't cut. I think over-penalty is the way to go. You gain 3 seconds by cutting, you get 6 or 10 seconds penalty. That's very fair, just don't cut.

That's a terrible analogy. Accidentally cutting a corner is part of racing and is only avoided by driving too slow. Robbing a bank on the other hand is easily avoided and not an integral part of living.

 

[Calmlity]

The AI brakes too long at turns, that's the main problem. By the way I am still hoping PD will give option to turn off suggested gear. And please don't forget about the rain weather.

 

[Loverson]

Well as soon as i've read AI, i immediately thought "Yeah no wonder".
GT Sport's AI is atrocious and worst of all: inconsistent. Making it that "some" courses they're better is a joke.

You can test the AI in Nurb 24H, it is absolutely garbage and brakes\slow down at almost anything. You either improve the AI or completely change the way you review penalties (or maybe both)

 

[kilesa4568]

Too inconsistent a method. Quick drivers can end up with a possible race ruining penalty while slower drivers can get away with pushing limits. It sounds exploitable if you're slowed early in a lap too. 'I lost 5 seconds on the first corner, let's see if I can gain a couple back with a sneaky cut...'

They know which corners can be cut (or extended) so program the system with an average human sector time to work out the penalty instead of taking the lap as a whole. It's seriously lazy to use brainless AI for lap times and borderline negligent having AI work out tyre wear. They're brutal on tyres in FF and MR classes.

I always wondered how they worked out penalties but now I know, I wish I didn't. PD's credibility went down a notch hearing this.

 

[Scuderia Paul]

The AI in GTSport is too incompetent and inconsistent to have such a system truly work. I think the idea behind is perfectly fine but the AI is very poor in GTS, as it has always been in GT games, and to fully realise this method of calculating penalties you need a completely new AI model.

I can see why PD would approach it like this but surely PD can see why it is flawed.

We all know how poor the AI is, and PD are well aware too, so for a platform flagship title with the budget of GT to continue to serve such rubbish after 20 years is inexcusable.

​

 

[ferhound]

Still a work in progress but it serves a good purpose. Now please let’s get SPA in the game.

No please no SPA, better add Seattle Circuit or Autumn Ring.

 

[Moglet]

I hear multiple complaints about GTSport's penalty system however I never hear any suggestions as to how to fix it or suggestions as to what the actual issue is. The corner cutting itself is a relatively simple thing to implement when compared to applying blame in situations. As an example, when you have a situation where a driver has rammed another after re-joining the track you have to set up an automated system that is able to look at not only the car that has left the track but also how they've re-joined the race, how the driver that got hit was behaving, what the network conditions were like, the relative speeds involved, the race positions, timings, wheel positions etc. It's very very difficult stuff and I'd say that GTSport actually does a fairly decent job overall. Whether the time penalties themselves are fair is another matter.

 

[Famine]

Don't confuse the AI which races with you with the AI that hotlaps. Although not alien quick, the AI can hotlap very consistently (even in GT4) and at a fair pace. In principle, they'd only need to increase the AI pace a little bit to get more human laptimes, and there's likely a dev build with an AI pace slider.

Also, note that Yamauchi said this was at its simplest and only a "part" of it - if I were doing it, I'd use the mini-sector time of the AI as an indication of the percentage of time you should spend in that sector at best, and adjust the penalty according to how much time was gained over how much time you should spend in that sector.

 

[cjr3559]

Except for the early braking, all of this incompetent AI talk sounds a lot like most human drivers I’ve experienced, myself included though I don’t ‘brake late and hope I don’t get any hate’.

All sounds like most humans to me:

incredibly poor, at many aspects. Pace, awareness, racecraft etc.

drive like a drunk pig, with zero space awareness and cheating on top of it.

seem like drunk drivers, but also they do the same driving lines whether its a formula car or a little Fiat 500.

atrocious and worst of all: inconsistent. Making it that "some" courses they're better is a joke

EDIT:

Admittedly I missed the point of the article and now I understand. Still, the whole Human/AI comparison is ironic..

 

[kilesa4568]

the AI can hotlap very consistently

Have they got AI that can get within a couple of seconds of the optimal top times though? They'd get a much more accurate penalty amount if they did but judging by the ridiculously large penalties you sometimes see, the AI are still miles off the pace.

Take a competent lap time around 2-3 seconds off the optimal, average out the sector times and you'll have a more accurate shortcut penalty. Maybe add .5 to reference lap times to adjust for rank.

All sounds like most humans to me:

We know what we're doing. The AI (I've gotta stop calling them that...) don't.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Maybe add .5 to reference lap times to adjust for rank.

It should definitely be rank relative. What an alien can do with a mild chicane cut versus what a DR C driver can squeeze out of it are vastly different time disparities.

 

[Veinz]

The AI is awful but it’s still better than most players.

 

[Loverson]

Except for the early braking, all of this incompetent AI talk sounds a lot like most human drivers I’ve experienced, myself included though I don’t ‘brake late and hope I don’t get any hate’.

All sounds like most humans to me:

They follow a fixed pattern. The inconsistency is an actual flaw in this game sadly.
Grid Autosport has a better human simulation where they end up crashing each other at t1 (If they are stacked for example) abd have a more distinct AI work. They are also fast and can commit some error or aggressive overtake. (But it's a rough comparison since Autosport has a better option to the AI)

 

[fastone371]

Short cut penalties should be strong, it is there to penalize you and teach not to clip corners too close.