GT Sport's Penalty System is "Not Adequate Yet", Says Kazunori Yamauchi

[ARTAsean]

PD needs to hire someone from iRacing to fix the penalties, i think?

What would that accomplish? iRacing works so well because of all the barriers to entry. 7 year olds with no racing experience don’t play iRacing. They play Gran Turismo. It’s all about the user base.

 

[FoRiZon]

What would that accomplish? iRacing works so well because of all the barriers to entry. 7 year olds with no racing experience don’t play iRacing. They play Gran Turismo. It’s all about the user base.

I see. I was under impression that iRacing has some kind of very good penalty system (not with human, but system automated).

Or atleast that's what the "pro players" told me.

 

[breeminator]

iRacing is simply "no fault", both players in any incident are equally penalised:
https://ir-core-sites.iracing.com/members/pdfs/FIRST_Sporting_Code_v20081208.1.pdf

It's not an easy path that PD have embarked on in attempting to assign blame, but in the long term I see it as a better approach.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Below is where I think that iracing makes the most use of a computer sytem is the CUMALITIVE addition of incidents that can affect your race up to DQ and your license (RATING) in the long run.
When every incident in a race adds up it makes the drivers more aware and less careless which results in less contacts and cleaner racing.
EVERY on track incident should have an effect whether it be positive or negative.

A true ranking system does not change over the course of one or two races but over a period which actually indicates driving ability. This goes for ranking back up as well as down, a few mistakes should not cost you a ranking number but a few clean races should not fix it either.

Incidents2.5.1.
The iRacing.com software monitors all official on-track sessions (not including Testing) and any incidents that occur therein. Each incident type is given a certain value (see list below), and the software automatically tallies each driver’s incidents for each session.
Light contact with another driver = 0x
wheels off the racing surface = 1x
Loss of control = 2x
Contact with other objects = 3x
Heavy contact with another driver = 4x

 

[kilesa4568]

Could PD use ^^ that system or is there some sort of copyright on it?

 

[Hauser Aspen]

Someone get Mr Yamauchi a link to this video recently unloaded by Mark Rober.



(His) Summary: I wanted to see if I could make an app that could decode baseball signs. Turns out we could and it was a great opportunity for me to learn more about Machine Learning and neural networks from my friend Jabril.

The video might help Mr Yamauchi see that they're already doing the work necessary to train a neural network.

It is assumed that the GTS team developing the penalties must use the massive amounts of data available to them to develop their algorithm.

They only need to include the training of a neural network as a augmentation of their work, not a replacement.

 

[MasterGT]

"It’s a system players can easily game, by tapping the car in front and then steering into a barrier, to give their opponent a time penalty."

That's why I run on-line events with damage set to 'heavy'. Mess around like that in my lobbies, by willfully incurring damage, and you should likely finish nearer to the back of the pack.

I still haven't figured out why PDI don't use damage. The more skilled the driver, the more serious damage should affect them. Beginners start off with none, Intermediates get light damage that goes away, Professionals get heavy damage everywhere - on-line and off-line.

Players demanded damage for over a decade and, now that we have it, PDI doesn't use it anywhere. Player attitude won't change until costs add up enough to stop causing or getting embroiled in messes.

 

[Groundfish]

With damage a cheater can ruin a persons race totally far more easily...

If someone makes a mistake with damage my race is ruined, with. Just a bogus penalty I am still racing...

Everything except shared fault that I have seen so far can be gamed.

PD will eventually make things acceptable, it’s not a simple problem.

 

[timtheman610]

I've noted it before but 'engine stall'puts the emphasis on the following car entirely, the nose of your car is impact sensitive and your engine stalls for a period related to the 'g ' inflicted, you hold X button down until your engine restarts. Light racing incident touches that don't knock cars flying would be outside the'g' impact window and it leaves the serial bashers sitting with stalled engines holding their X buttons churning their starter buttons until their engines restart. 'Engine stall' would not include the track 'furniture' so if you're catapulted into the barriers you recover quicker than the car that sent you there. To me it's quite a realistic and simple solution, and sorts things out then and there. Get rid of 'place car back on track' too, I much prefer to work my own way out the gravel ! Also if you're car detects a serious rear 'shove' the short cut penalty should be disabled, being knocked off and then incurring a penalty is pants. Hot race tuned engines are easily stalled so to me it's a nice realistic solution.

 

[monkeywall]

iRacing works so well because of all the barriers to entry. 7 year olds with no racing experience don’t play iRacing. They play Gran Turismo

I agree all the barriers in iracing does prevent some inexperienced people from entering. It forces people, in a way, to race cleanly to progress on to faster cars.

It isn't just 7 olds that are pushing people of track in gtsport. Been pushed by A+ guys more than any other people in gtsport. One repeat offender I encountered ended up in the online final.

 

[MaxAttack]

I've noted it before but 'engine stall'puts the emphasis on the following car entirely, the nose of your car is impact sensitive and your engine stalls for a period related to the 'g ' inflicted, you hold X button down until your engine restarts. Light racing incident touches that don't knock cars flying would be outside the'g' impact window and it leaves the serial bashers sitting with stalled engines holding their X buttons churning their starter buttons until their engines restart. 'Engine stall' would not include the track 'furniture' so if you're catapulted into the barriers you recover quicker than the car that sent you there. To me it's quite a realistic and simple solution, and sorts things out then and there. Get rid of 'place car back on track' too, I much prefer to work my own way out the gravel ! Also if you're car detects a serious rear 'shove' the short cut penalty should be disabled, being knocked off and then incurring a penalty is pants. Hot race tuned engines are easily stalled so to me it's a nice realistic solution.

Best idea I've seen yet if properly implemented.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

... 'engine stall'puts the emphasis on the following car entirely, the nose of your car is impact sensitive and your engine stalls for a period related to the 'g ' inflicted, ...

Best idea I've seen yet if properly implemented.

Could easily be brake checker's paradise !

 

[MaxAttack]

Could easily be brake checkers paradise !

i feel like of all the things falling in the "problematic" basket about this penalty system, brake checking should really not be that hard to sort out. There should be no benefit of the doubt about braking on a straight, or mid corner on the apex (without a car doing the same in front to avoid trains of penalties). Any reasonable person should be able to swallow a penalty if they slip on their pedal or don't check their surroundings before braking.

 

[slashgnr08]

It also penalises you for legitimated making a mistake and running wide in a way which costs you time, prime example = running wide at Arnage corner.

I remember Kaz saying that these penalties are based on base laptimes set by AI, only problem is that we know how horrifically slow said AI can be.

that makes no sens whatsoever, if you have made a mistake, you know you have screwed up, then you know you will lose time, why should the game then penalize you,

i understand there are players out there who would just use this to cut corners etc, but the corner cut penalty can be applied there, If you miss your braking marker, then the game should be able to apply whichever algorithm it needs to,

but hey thats just my 2c,

 

[breeminator]

I still haven't figured out why PDI don't use damage.

Damage is very easy to game, you can impact another car in a way that will cause you minimal damage, but will cause the other car serious damage.

 

[timtheman610]

Could easily be brake checker's paradise !

Had thought about brake testers, perhaps 'engine stall' in braking zones only.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

i feel like of all the things falling in the "problematic" basket about this penalty system, brake checking should really not be that hard to sort out. There should be no benefit of the doubt about braking on a straight, or mid corner on the apex (without a car doing the same in front to avoid trains of penalties). Any reasonable person should be able to swallow a penalty if they slip on their pedal or don't check their surroundings before braking.

Had thought about brake testers, perhaps 'engine stall' in braking zones only.

Hey guys, I was just teasing a bit. Reason is ( well I possibly misunderstood the original post ) "emphasis on the following car entirely"
to me means "no emphasis on the leading car" which would allow that driver to do whatever he wants.
I'm not saying engine stall is a bad thing, tbh I've never thought about it, however it's nothing more than just another kind of penalty. Vehicle skins are sensitive already, so PD could as well penalize any contact of a following car with a 10 sec time penalty.
Major problems will remain : Monitoring multiple cars, detecting fault and apportioning blame ( impossible imo ) ... and PD's penalization concept as a whole.

 

[Aphelion]

Could PD use ^^ that system or is there some sort of copyright on it?

I'm honestly not sure if they could or could not, but it almost certainly just would not work the same in GT as Iracing. This is because, as stated elsewhere in this thread, Iracing has a barrier of entry that means that pretty much everyone who plays it is a relatively hard core enthusiast. GT is played by millions, of all ages, shapes and sizes.

If they just copy-pasted Iracing's system, the game would be a wasteland over night. The races that actually happened would probably be awesome for the people involved, but unfortunately that is only one of the reason PD makes games. All of them need to be fulfilled. That includes making money.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Had thought about brake testers, perhaps 'engine stall' in braking zones only.

So what? Their race would be done as well.

 

[Dmac72]

I’m always surprised how often brake checking is mentioned on here. I honestly don’t think I ever encountered it.
There are times when people in different cars, with different brakes, different brake balance and different techniques will obviously have a different braking point to me.
If I am behind them it is something I have to be aware of, they can brake earlier, later, for longer or even mid corner if they wish. They are in front, that’s their choice.
Braking half way along a straight or on exiting a corner is not something I have seen.

 

[timtheman610]

So what? Their race would be done as

I’m always surprised how often brake checking is mentioned on here. I honestly don’t think I ever encountered it.
There are times when people in different cars, with different brakes, different brake balance and different techniques will obviously have a different braking point to me.
If I am behind them it is something I have to be aware of, they can brake earlier, later, for longer or even mid corner if they wish. They are in front, that’s their choice.
Braking half way along a straight or on exiting a corner is not something I have seen.

It's a real mean trick because you lose masses of momentum whilst the impact shoots the tester forward back up to speed, not seen it as much as those that knock you off, mostly because they can't get ahead with their lame driving skills

 

[cjr3559]

The racing will never be clean, the penalty system will never be perfect. Serious racers participate in clubs/leagues anyway. Time for PD pack up this concept and move on to other things.

 

[Tired Tyres]

It's a real mean trick because you lose masses of momentum whilst the impact shoots the tester forward back up to speed, not seen it as much as those that knock you off, mostly because they can't get ahead with their lame driving skills

That is because of the lack of proper damage though.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The racing will never be clean, the penalty system will never be perfect. Serious racers participate in clubs/leagues anyway. Time for PD pack up this concept and move on to other things.

Perfect? That's a rather high and unattainable bar you're setting there. That's like saying that you'll never be able to stop all murders, so why have murder laws. Leagues and clubs are far from perfect too, so under your logic those leagues should pack it up.

 

[Dmac72]

The racing will never be clean, the penalty system will never be perfect. Serious racers participate in clubs/leagues anyway. Time for PD pack up this concept and move on to other things.

Racers of all types, “serious”, “real”, “proper” or many other vague and pointless adjectives, compete in all sorts of events.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

I’m always surprised how often brake checking is mentioned on here. I honestly don’t think I ever encountered it.
There are times when people in different cars, with different brakes, different brake balance and different techniques will obviously have a different braking point to me.
If I am behind them it is something I have to be aware of, they can brake earlier, later, for longer or even mid corner if they wish. They are in front, that’s their choice.
Braking half way along a straight or on exiting a corner is not something I have seen.

Agreed.
Haven't seen brake checks too often in GTS, too, got my dose in GT6 though. If it became really effective ( remember "emphasis on the following car entirely" ) brake checking might be a weapon of choice over night. Just speculating ...

 

[cjr3559]

Perfect? That's a rather high and unattainable bar you're setting there. That's like saying that you'll never be able to stop all murders, so why have murder laws. Leagues and clubs are far from perfect too, so under your logic those leagues should pack it up.

Murder analogous to online racing. That about sums it up.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Murder analogous to online racing. That about sums it up.

Yeah, I'm not going to let you "zing" and quip your way out of that one. Your premise was that because the system is not perfect, that it should be abandoned. That's an unreasonable standard that not even your leagues and clubs can match. What is your defense to that point?

 

[fastone371]

Damage is very easy to game, you can impact another car in a way that will cause you minimal damage, but will cause the other car serious damage.

We have a 90 minute race once a month with full damage on. Nobody games the system there and it works great, of course if you wreck someone you are expected to answer for it or not come back for the next races.

 

[breeminator]

We have a 90 minute race once a month with full damage on. Nobody games the system there and it works great, of course if you wreck someone you are expected to answer for it or not come back for the next races.

It's the underlined bit that is making it work, not the existence of full damage. If you have full damage but still have "if the game lets you do it, it's legal", then people just hit other cars to cause them to have a head on collision with a barrier or tyre wall, ending the race of their victim while they carry on just fine.