400PP Nordschleife Shootout

  • Thread starter CSLACR
  • 1,639 comments
  • 102,664 views
The Indy shootout was on R2s. :P

You need to have the right tires for the PP level. Comfort and Sports tires are less likely to hide problems in the tune than Racing tires. I could slap some R3s on a Civic and have a "l33t g0 k4rt"......or I can use Comfort tires and tune it right. :dopey:

Anyway...my testing is all done for group 2. 👍 I will post the results in a few hours and then bury myself in taking pictures for the photomode tourney. :nervous:
 
DigitalBaka
The Indy shootout was on R2s. :P

You need to have the right tires for the PP level. Comfort and Sports tires are less likely to hide problems in the tune than Racing tires. I could slap some R3s on a Civic and have a "l33t g0 k4rt"......or I can use Comfort tires and tune it right. :dopey:
Click to expand...

And it was for 600PP cars which would have killed the testers in the Oval without the race tyres. :P

And have more fun with the CS Honda when tuning it, rather than fall asleep with the RS tyres on. :lol:
 
Cowboys965
Has anyone tested my Mercedes yet? It's on share.
Click to expand...

The testers haven't been as active as they have been in previous shootouts, maybe down to the sheer number of cars and the length of the track, but it basically means us tuners are left here, twiddling our thumbs and waiting for 2012 to come and go while the testers drive like a bunch of lunatics for a few days. :lol:

I'd volunteer, but I just don't want to see a shadow of the 'Ring unless I'm in something I genuinely enjoy driving, I hate the place so much now. :dopey:
 
DigitalBaka
Mercedes? :odd: Isn't your entry a BMW? Or is the Merc for something else?
Click to expand...

My round 1 was a BMW. I thought we had to choose a different car for Round 2. :odd:

Edit: NO NO NO DON'T TEST I FORGOT IT WAS 420PP!!!
 
DigitalBaka
Ah, gotcha. Just wanted to make sure I did the right car. :)
Click to expand...

You did the wrong one. Lol

It's at 400PP, it's supposed to be 420PP. So scratch that. Lol
You can test the right one later when I fix it.

NOBODY TEST MY CAR.
 
While we're waiting, I'm going to vent a bit.

Does anyone ever wonder where the default settings for the custom suspension come from and have you ever noticed that cars with very similar weight and weight distribution have entirely different values?

'90 RX-7:
weight: 1250kg
distribution: 55/45
springs: 4.2/4.0
behavior: understeer entry, oversteer exit

'12 86 GT:
weight: 1266kg
distribution: 53/47
springs: 10.5/3.5
behavior: balanced

Now try to apply the 86 GT suspension setup to the RX-7 and it simply won't work. It won't give you the same balance. Despite the 86 being slower in a straight line, it handles the corners of Nurburgring like its on Sports tires instead of Comfort tires. The balance is good (could use a little tweaking) and it will run 3+ seconds faster even though it loses close to 1 second on each of the long straights. One would think that you could utilize the handling prowess of the 86 and apply similar settings to the RX-7 to improve cornering grip, but it just doesn't happen. Why do you think? Is it just the age-old delima of some cars having wider tires? Or is something else going on in GT's physics engine where spring rates, weight, and everything else is all just relative to some magic setting each car has that states how much grip and what balance (oversteer/understeer) characteristic it will have.
 
chuyler1
While we're waiting, I'm going to vent a bit.

Does anyone ever wonder where the default settings for the custom suspension come from and have you ever noticed that cars with very similar weight and weight distribution have entirely different values?

'90 RX-7:
weight: 1250kg
distribution: 55/45
springs: 4.2/4.0
behavior: understeer entry, oversteer exit

'12 86 GT:
weight: 1266kg
distribution: 53/47
springs: 10.5/3.5
behavior: balanced

Now try to apply the 86 GT suspension setup to the RX-7 and it simply won't work. It won't give you the same balance. Despite the 86 being slower in a straight line, it handles the corners of Nurburgring like its on Sports tires instead of Comfort tires. The balance is good (could use a little tweaking) and it will run 3+ seconds faster even though it loses close to 1 second on each of the long straights. One would think that you could utilize the handling prowess of the 86 and apply similar settings to the RX-7 to improve cornering grip, but it just doesn't happen. Why do you think? Is it just the age-old delima of some cars having wider tires? Or is something else going on in GT's physics engine where spring rates, weight, and everything else is all just relative to some magic setting each car has that states how much grip and what balance (oversteer/understeer) characteristic it will have.
Click to expand...

Yes, i have seen this several time, trying to adapt a good tune of my garage to a new car, same drive train, same weight and weight repartition (using ballast if needed to adjust perfectly everything..... But it don´t work.
Premium cars of the same model have more grip than the non premium, 1 tire above +-, and less to speed.
there is a little magic it seems depending of the brand,($$$$$ who know ?) But the same settings generally can be used for the same models of cars.
For examle , a good tune for a Lotus 111R ,can be used on any Elise model, if you adapt the weight and weight repartition. But the premium still will have more grip.
 
PD plays favorites with their modeling of cars. Premiums generally perform better than standards, but even with that out of the equation certain cars just outperform others despite all the other factors being apparently identical.
 
chuyler1
While we're waiting, I'm going to vent a bit.

Does anyone ever wonder where the default settings for the custom suspension come from and have you ever noticed that cars with very similar weight and weight distribution have entirely different values?

'90 RX-7:
weight: 1250kg
distribution: 55/45
springs: 4.2/4.0
behavior: understeer entry, oversteer exit

'12 86 GT:
weight: 1266kg
distribution: 53/47
springs: 10.5/3.5
behavior: balanced
Click to expand...

The '90 RX-7 isn't the best handling car in the world to begin with, it just has a massive tuner following. The GT86 was designed from the factory to handle great and uses technology from 2012, not 1990. It makes no sense that the settings for one of these would fit the other.

It would make more sense though to compare the AE86 and the RX-7 GT-Limited from the 80's, since there isn't an entire decade between them and the cars are still fairly similar.
 
My thoughts on different spring rates for similar weight cars is how much if any PD has tried to use the real life manufactures spring rates for the cars but I'm too lazy to cross reference them. Depending on how the suspension is designed and where the spring is located (what angle) on the a-arm you can have a car with very light springs feel stiffer than one with higher rate springs and vice versa.
 
VTiRoj
The '90 RX-7 isn't the best handling car in the world to begin with, it just has a massive tuner following. The GT86 was designed from the factory to handle great and uses technology from 2012, not 1990. It makes no sense that the settings for one of these would fit the other.
Click to expand...
ACSR421
My thoughts on different spring rates for similar weight cars is how much if any PD has tried to use the real life manufactures spring rates for the cars but I'm too lazy to cross reference them. Depending on how the suspension is designed and where the spring is located (what angle) on the a-arm you can have a car with very light springs feel stiffer than one with higher rate springs and vice versa.
Click to expand...

When you rip out the technology from the factory in both cars, and install a fully adjustible race suspension, I would think that dictates that both cars are on an equal playing field. Wheelbase and suspension geometry as the car's body rotates have some affect on camber and toe settings, but spring rates should be relative to ride height, weight and weight distribution and nothing more.

But I think I see your point. An F1 car has very stiff springs because they are at an almost horizontal angle. Perhaps the 86 is at a 45 degree angle while the RX-7 is at a 90 degree angle. Do you think PD went through that effort when designing these virtual cars?
 
As soon the cars for round 2 are officials, i will start testings :)
 
Last edited:
I have noticed that premium car weight, gear and suspension settings are a match to the information that can be found at manufacturer/tuner web sites.
That's uncanny. :boggled:

💡
Maybe the setups are proprietary. Someone said it.........you can use the Mazda setup on another Mazda and expect decent performance. Put it on a Toyota and it will kill you. That could be contractual/license thing? :confused:
 
chuyler1
But I think I see your point. An F1 car has very stiff springs because they are at an almost horizontal angle. Perhaps the 86 is at a 45 degree angle while the RX-7 is at a 90 degree angle. Do you think PD went through that effort when designing these virtual cars?
Click to expand...

Kaz says it takes six months to create a single car. Hopefully they went all out with the vitural builds.

I do remember from GT1 that each car was "mapped" for physics and sound.
I would be happy to know that PD/Kaz still demands that when building a car.
 
XDesperado67
PD plays favorites with their modeling of cars. Premiums generally perform better than standards, but even with that out of the equation certain cars just outperform others despite all the other factors being apparently identical.
Click to expand...
This, exactly this and only this.
To me, the cars all seem very deliberately coded to perform a certain way, and extra grip stock, always equals extra grip tuned, there can be no such thing as a miracle tune making the slowest car now the fastest, because PD didn't program it that way.
What PD made to be great cars, are the only great cars, down through good, meh, bad, and horrible cars.
 
how long is it now till tester deadline 13hours?

oh man I just want to see 1st round the results......

Also seeing as looks as though we may need testers for round 2, count me in!

been doing god knows how many laps of the ring lately anyways
 
CSLACR
This, exactly this and only this.
To me, the cars all seem very deliberately coded to perform a certain way, and extra grip stock, always equals extra grip tuned, there can be no such thing as a miracle tune making the slowest car now the fastest, because PD didn't program it that way.
What PD made to be great cars, are the only great cars, down through good, meh, bad, and horrible cars.
Click to expand...
I always come back to this. Occasionally I get into a "meh" car and think, I could make this fast. I spend time on it and get really comfortable and start producing consistent laps. At some point I give up on the tune because a tire will not stop going red mid corner. Then I get into a "great" car and blow away my lap time without even adjusting the camber on the custom suspension or tweaking the gears beyond max speed.
 
CSLACR
This, exactly this and only this.
To me, the cars all seem very deliberately coded to perform a certain way, and extra grip stock, always equals extra grip tuned, there can be no such thing as a miracle tune making the slowest car now the fastest, because PD didn't program it that way.
What PD made to be great cars, are the only great cars, down through good, meh, bad, and horrible cars.
Click to expand...
To add to what I said before they also seem to have nearly hard coded certain performance variables with the cars.

For example the 2000 GT I entered here. Has the highest top speed of any of the 400PP cars we've seen, despite not having anywhere near the best power to weight ratio. Being curious and wanting to see what the car could do fully modified I gave my spare car all the upgrades and weight loss. For my trouble and all the extra PP I got a car that handles only marginally better and that has only slightly higher top speed despite getting an extra 75PP (including an ugly wing at 18downforce) and an extra 100HP.
 
XDesperado67
To add to what I said before they also seem to have nearly hard coded certain performance variables with the cars.

For example the 2000 GT I entered here. Has the highest top speed of any of the 400PP cars we've seen, despite not having anywhere near the best power to weight ratio. Being curious and wanting to see what the car could do fully modified I gave my spare car all the upgrades and weight loss. For my trouble and all the extra PP I got a car that handles only marginally better and that has only slightly higher top speed despite getting an extra 75PP (including an ugly wing at 18downforce) and an extra 100HP.
Click to expand...

Adding that sail to the back of your car is not going to help the cd of that vehicle at all for top speed, try max tune with no wing and let us know how fast it is............:scared:
 
Has anyone tried to compare the two '69 Camaros? Yes one is a Z and one is an SS, but one is premium and one is standard. Might be interesting to so the difference in the two.
 
The Merc I'm using this round would've blown away anything the previous round, it needed an oil change, but couldn't to keep at 400PP.

Car with bad was still faster then the 400PP normal cars I think.
 
Hermanvongerman
Adding that sail to the back of your car is not going to help the cd of that vehicle at all for top speed, try max tune with no wing and let us know how fast it is............:scared:
Click to expand...
It's been proven that wings don't add drag in GT5 unlike in real life.

They do increase the PP so in races or events with a PP limit your forced to choose between amount of downforce, weight and HP/torque but 2 of the same car built identically except for wing/downforce will have the same top speed. Additionally wings may actually improve acceleration in GT5 as it has yet to be determined when the downforce they provide is applied and if it is a constant or if as in real life it increases with the speed of the vehicle until its full force is reached.:odd::crazy:
 

Latest Posts

Back