85 MPG Cars, And Everyone Thought I was Crazy.

[Sam48]

It's something that I still do not understand myself, and that is, why don't companies like VW, Subaru, Ford, etc. sell their 85-90 MPG diesels in America? I can understand why they would in Europe, given the high gas prices, carbon taxation, and so forth, but why not in the US? Did our governments deem them to efficient for us due to the cheapness of owning and running a car in the US? I bring this up because I got laughed at in my eco class after I put down my teacher when he stated the Toyota Prius had nearly the best fuel economy in the world getting 48 MPG. I then stated that most cars in Europe get nearly 85 MPG because they use diesels. No one believed me. It's a sad fact that when you mention a car can get 85 MPGs to an American, they think you're crazy.

I am getting something horribly wrong here? What's the story behind it?

 

[Northstar]

Diesels have a terrible reputation(most people think they constantly blow black smoke, which isn't true in the slightest) so they don't sell well enough for companies to send them over. I think the infrastructure is also a problem, here at least a majority of gas stations don't even have a diesel pump and if they do they only have 1.

I know apart from pickups, BMW and Audi/VW sell them(Mercedes-Benz has sold them before, not sure if they still do). They both have been running ads trying to get people to realize they aren't bad but people are stubborn.

 

[Sam48]

I just can't see how an 85 MPG car wouldn't be irresistible in this economy. All you'd have to do is show Americans a picture of a VW Lupo, and that'd be it.

I know Audi is trying with the A3 Clean Diesel, as they call it, but I believe they toned it down to 50 MPG for the US, or something like that.

 

[MistaX]

What your average American consumer sees in their head when they hear the word "Diesel"

 

[Northstar]

The A3/Golf diesel gets about 40MPG highway. Keep in mind that the US measures mpg differently than Europe.

I think it would help if some of the Japanese companies sold diesels here as they don't have as much of a "Expensive to own" stigma like German cars do. Another problem is that diesels cost about $4,000 more on average, which isn't exactly easy to just put to the side. Especially when Hybrid versions of cars are getting to be roughly the same price as the gas and can have a larger gain in mpg.

 

[sumbrownkid]

And it doesn't help the diesel cause when Hybrids are getting tax breaks and other incentives.

I just don't get why companies like VW won't spit out a diesel hybrid Jetta or CC and try to use that tax incentives to get customers into diesel.

 

[Tornado]

Keep in mind that many of the 50MPG+ diesels that are sold in Europe would be largely impractical for use in America. They tend to be sub-1.5L engines with considerably less than 100 horsepower, and quite frankly there aren't that many places in America where you could really use a car like that. Also keep in mind that European MPG and American MPG are notably different measurements.
Diesel's 30% higher fuel costs (and higher upfront costs when buying the car) and comparative scarcity to normal gas doesn't do it any favors either.





And your teacher is an idiot, I think it must be said.

I just don't get why companies like VW won't spit out a diesel hybrid Jetta or CC and try to use that tax incentives to get customers into diesel.

Because diesels don't like doing the Stop-Start stuff that make hybrids work. There have been advancements in that area, but most heavy diesel supporters don't really care because the consumers that buy diesels don't care.

 

[Keef]

What your average American consumer sees in their head when they hear the word "Diesel"

The sad thing is that half of HD pickup owners put ridiculous stacks and blow black smoke on purpose because they think it's cool or something. Here in Dayton I can hardly make it to the mall without seeing at least one.

 

[Morrac32]

The sad thing is that half of HD pickup owners put ridiculous stacks and blow black smoke on purpose because they think it's cool or something. Here in Dayton I can hardly make it to the mall without seeing at least one.

Here in East Texas it is hard to go a block without seeing about four or five.

 

[Sam48]

So in the end, the Europeans could care less about what the term "diesel" really means, and would much rather pay less. I don't blame them really. Americans then would care because it's cheaper to own and run a car here, but the word "diesel" means much more to us because it sounds dirty, whereas the word "hybrid" or "electric" sounds great. Therefore, we Americans, being as self centered as always, ignored the outside world, and went with the "clean" one with the wind farm in the backdrop.

It's a sad world we live in.

Also, how exactly are the MPG measurements different? Put in plain American, what would, say, a Lupo get? According to VW.com, it gets 85 MPG. But I believe that is by European standards.

And your teacher is an idiot, I think it must be said.

Yeah, when it comes to that sort of thing. He has an odd obsession with wind turbines, and that stupid Nissan Leaf.

 

[Roo]

Also, how exactly are the MPG measurements different?

http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm

1 European gallon = 1.2 US gallons. 1 US gallon = 0.83 European gallons. So by my (admittedly rather shaky) maths, in the US the Lupo would do 70mpg.

 

[Sniffs]

shouldn't that be BRITISH gallon (formerly Imperial Gallon)? i hear it's a quart bigger than the US one.
1. there's a truisim I've discovered; the better the mileage, the smaller the fuel tank. this makes all ranges the exact same (or very close)
2. americans still slip dollar amounts of gas or diesel into their fuel tanks, rather than however many gallons/liters necessary, and would rather put in 5 bucks a day than 50 bucks at once.

this is the first time I've had to explain American fuel habits to an American!

 

[Adamgp]

They usually don't meet US emissions standards, and (atleast under the old rules) for some reason they did not count toward US CAFE standards if they brought them over. Maybe that changed with the new rules.


Diesel fuel where I'm at is considerably more expensive than even 93.

 

[Sam48]

1. there's a truisim I've discovered; the better the mileage, the smaller the fuel tank. this makes all ranges the exact same (or very close)

Diesels would still have an advantage. For example, if I put one gallon of diesel in my diesel car that gets 70 US MPG and one gallon of gasoline into my Prius, which gets 48 US MPG, the diesel would go 22 miles farther for just an extra 50-60 cents (The extra cost of diesel, at least in my state).

2. americans still slip dollar amounts of gas or diesel into their fuel tanks, rather than however many gallons/liters necessary, and would rather put in 5 bucks a day than 50 bucks at once.

It really doesn't make any difference then, does it?

 

[homeforsummer]

There's only one car in Europe that gets even 70mpg US and that's the diesel smart fortwo, and when I drove it I averaged an easy 60mpg US.

I'm not quite sure where you got the 90mpg figure from, especially since that would be over 100mpg in Europe and there's no such car that does that.

That said, you can get higher MPG from diesels, especially over long-distance driving where they're happy to sit at low revs all day. Around town, hybrids tend to be more economical. Actually on this note, your teacher may not be an idiot but he's not correct either.

The Prius may be one of the most economical cars currently on US roads but it's nowhere near the most economical in the world (the smart diesel gets that one), nor the most economical US roads have ever seen. That accolade goes to the original Honda Insight I think, which was rated at 70mpg (US) highway on the old EPA system and several owners report that 100mpg (US) isn't out of reach.

As for why the States doesn't get many diesels, that's been pretty much covered above.

And as Toronado says, the most economical of our cars just wouldn't be suitable in the States unless you didn't mind being buzzed by semis on the freeway.

 

[Sam48]

I'm not quite sure where you got the 90mpg figure from, especially since that would be over 100mpg in Europe and there's no such car that does that.

I was a bit off there. I saw a Polo add online, and remember it saying 85MPG. It actually said 75 (US), now that I re-checked.

 

[Azuremen]

It's a sad world we live in.

Yeah, when it comes to that sort of thing. He has an odd obsession with wind turbines, and that stupid Nissan Leaf.

This sad world that reduced diesel sales was mostly the product of emissions standards that were above Europe's in our major markets, namely California.

Despite the European view that everyone in the US is dumb and vice versa, we really just have different policies because of different needs at different points in history. Additionally, many of their high mileage models simply lack any power at all and would likely be dangerous in, say, Southern California freeway driving.

Wind Turbines make power, though they do kill birds sometimes. We have them down by the Columbia river and other parts of Washington and Oregon.

As for the Leaf, I see no problem with an all electric car. More so one that has more than enough range for most anyone's daily commute.

 

[Sniffs]

And as Toronado says, the most economical of our cars just wouldn't be suitable in the States unless you didn't mind being buzzed by semis on the freeway.

no, they'd be buzzed by tuned down 80's cars with old 3 speed slushboxes and an 85 MPH top end i think it's because American engines emphasize torque over power (and everyone is a frigging leadfoot, they're trying to get to work before they burn off the 10 bucks of fuel they just put in )

the best report of mileage I've heard in my time online was 65 British MPG for, I believe, an 89 Fiat with a sub 1 liter engine.

the only thing that gets in the 70's-80's range here are motorcycles.

 

[Roo]

shouldn't that be BRITISH gallon (formerly Imperial Gallon)?

It should be UK gallon, yes. I posted European gallon to avoid the thought that the British use a different size gallon to the rest of Europe - as far as I'm aware, there's no difference. Not that it matters, because the all the countries on the continent measure fuel economy in km/100 litres anyway.

 

[homeforsummer]

It should be UK gallon, yes. I posted European gallon to avoid the thought that the British use a different size gallon to the rest of Europe - as far as I'm aware, there's no difference. Not that it matters, because the all the countries on the continent measure fuel economy in km/100 litres anyway.

Litres per 100km, to be precise And I'd still refer to the UK gallon as the imperial gallon, to the best of my knowledge that's what it's still called.

Interestingly, the US has two gallon measurements, one for liquids and the other, "dry" gallons. They seem more or less the same though.

The site I use for all that sort of stuff is onlineconversion.com. Damn useful.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I bring this up because I got laughed at in my eco class after I put down my teacher when he stated the Toyota Prius had nearly the best fuel economy in the world getting 48 MPG. I then stated that most cars in Europe get nearly 85 MPG because they use diesels. No one believed me. It's a sad fact that when you mention a car can get 85 MPGs to an American, they think you're crazy.

There's only one car in Europe that gets even 70mpg US and that's the diesel smart fortwo, and when I drove it I averaged an easy 60mpg US.

I was a bit off there. I saw a Polo add online, and remember it saying 85MPG. It actually said 75 (US), now that I re-checked.

Most of them probably didn't even know diesel cars exist, but saying most cars get nearly 85MPG is still wrong.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

Keep in mind that many of the 50MPG+ diesels that are sold in Europe would be largely impractical for use in America. They tend to be sub-1.5L engines with considerably less than 100 horsepower, and quite frankly there aren't that many places in America where you could really use a car like that. Also keep in mind that European MPG and American MPG are notably different measurements.
Diesel's 30% higher fuel costs (and higher upfront costs when buying the car) and comparative scarcity to normal gas doesn't do it any favors either

I don't see why not, US speed limits are typically lower than Europe and all of the cars will happily do motorway speeds. They're no worse than a Prius.

 

[Northstar]

I don't see why not, US speed limits are typically lower than Europe and all of the cars will happily do motorway speeds. They're no worse than a Prius.

From my little research the speed limits are roughly the same.

I really don't think speed is the reason they don't sell well though.

 

[Sam48]

Most of them probably didn't even know diesel cars exist, but saying most cars get nearly 85MPG is still wrong.

Your right, they didn't. In fact, had I not discovered the TV show Top Gear a few years back, I wouldn't have known either. I would have just assumed 50MPG was the best you could possibly get anywhere.

 

[YSSMAN]

I don't see why not, US speed limits are typically lower than Europe and all of the cars will happily do motorway speeds. They're no worse than a Prius.

Well, yes and no. The lower powered diesels and petrol models are fully capable of doing motorway speeds, but it is the time in which it takes to get there that makes some Americans weary of the performance. Here in the US, anything longer than 10 seconds to 60 MPH is considered to be very slow, and anything longer than 12 seconds is usually considered to be dangerous. The Prius is quite capable in terms of getting up to highway speeds quickly and efficiently, and very rarely do I hear people complain about their inability to merge into traffic.

 

[Tornado]

I don't see why not, US speed limits are typically lower than Europe and all of the cars will happily do motorway speeds.

Speed limits may be lower (though I actually doubt that). How fast people actually drive is something else entirely, and usually to the tune of about 20% faster. And you are expected to be going that nearly that fast before you get to the end of the on-ramp.

Furthermore, the majority of typical daily European driving isn't done on motorways like it is in America. There is a difference between "capable of doing motorway speeds" and "a suitable choice for dozens of miles twice a day, 5 days a week."

 

[Sniffs]

Home: if you think the old body parts measuring system is confusing NOW, you shoulda seen it when we were still universally using "pecks" and "bushels", or "grains" and "drams" . there's some things that Metric is perfectly suited for.

Toronado: beg your pardon? yuns must all be city folk or something! like this one guy at another board who told me "all american roads are straight, flat 8 lane superhighways".

I swear i must be the only rural GTer in existance. the interstate is for getting TO the big cities and for vacations. i do a daily 70 mile/100+ km commute just running guys back and forth from a wood mill. i swear I run roads that would give the 'ring a run for it's money for sheer lumpiness.

 

[Famine]

Additionally, many of their high mileage models simply lack any power at all and would likely be dangerous in, say, Southern California freeway driving.

Just for reference, this is goosenaargh.

For the first 7 years of my driving career I drove 55-65hp (and 45-55mpg) Ford Fiestas up and down the motorways of Great Britain, with our 70mph speed limits, doing "70mph". More recently I've driven a handful of slightly more powerful (and less frugal) cars up and down the motorways of Great Britain, doing the same "70mph".

When in Southern California (and Nevada, and Florida), I drove a rental V6 Mustang on 65mph limited roads, doing "65mph" - and my "65mph" was slower than my British "70mph". I don't believe I was in any danger at any time (except when we climbed towards Mojave and the temperature dropped from 65 to 25 in ten minutes) from going slower on SoCal roads than my 1.0, 4-speed Fiesta on British motorways a decade previously.


If there is such a thing as an average car, in order to do a constant 70mph it needs about 30hp at the crank. To do a constant 80mph it needs about 35hp at the crank. The 72mpg (60mpg US) VW Polo BlueMotion has 80hp - more than twice what it would need to do 80mph (and what looks like a ballpark top speed of 116mph), which means not only can it do 80mph with ease, but it can accelerate from it quite easily too. Any notion that it's too underpowered to drive safely on a freeway is... insane.

Speed limits may be lower (though I actually doubt that). How fast people actually drive is something else entirely, and usually to the tune of about 20% faster. And you are expected to be going that nearly that fast before you get to the end of the on-ramp.

Acceleration is, however, a valid concern.

On British motorways, traffic on the motorway has priority over traffic on the joining sliproad - this means that cars joining the motorway have to be at road speed before they join. Sliproads tend to be over a quarter of a mile long but, typically, not more than a half mile. They are generally downhill for joining and uphill for leaving but not always. So let's take them as being, on average, flat and a quarter mile long.

Now, imagine a standing start - though the cars won't be standing, but let's assume that they are - with an aim to hit 70mph before a point a quarter of a mile away. We've just described a drag race I'm not aware of anyone who's done a drag run with a Polo Bluemotion (they would, after all, need sectioning), but pretty much any vehicle in production today can hit 70mph at the end of a strip - no data here, but I would honestly be surprised if the BlueMotion fell short. Something like a Smart ForTwo or the Toyota iQ though, yes.

 

[TheCracker]

^ Yep.

In my experience of UK and US Motorway/Freeway driving i would also say that on average Freeway speeds are a little lower than the average speed on Motorways.

I was unfortunate enough to get a Geo Metro for a hire car in the US once time. It was as small and powerless as any small hatchback we had in Europe at the time, yet was in no way unusable.

The aversion that Americans have to both diesels and small hatchbacks is psychological as far as i can make out.

The UK was the same with diesels about 20 years ago, even though they were popular on continental Europe. It was only when petrol prices began to sky rocket in the early 90's that diesels became much more common.

 

[Dotini]

Back in the 60's I had a BMW 700S, a very pretty little 45hp coupe with an aftermarket exhaust system. It would do well over 80 mph, and get well over 40mpg, even driven with a lead foot.


http://bringatrailer.com/2009/02/13/unrestored-40hp-driver-1960-bmw-700s/
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/BMW/700_BMW/700_Coupe/1960.html