85 MPG Cars, And Everyone Thought I was Crazy.

[BigYoSpeck]

The slowest car I've ever driven was a 1.3 Ka. I think it was just under 60hp. I drove that with my self (80kg), a passenger (70kg) and a boot and back seat full of amps and drums (~200kg) and it would still comfortably reach "70mph" (as Famine put it).

I suspect a lot of the reservation in driving a low power car comes from the lack of experience in doing so. Don't get me wrong I'm not claiming that there isn't a benefit to driving a 100hp+ car but modern refined engines (which the Ka doesn't have) are more willing to shift than people may imagine.

Typically driving something like a 1.6 focus I almost never use 100% of the power, typically shifting at around 4k rpm and not shifting down when I need an extra 10-20mph for overtaking. A smaller engine just means pushing it up to the red line when you need to hit comfortable speeds and making sure you are in the right gear.

 

[eSZee]

So in the end, the Europeans could care less about what the term "diesel" really means, and would much rather pay less.

Yes, exactly. Remember some 3-5 years ago when gas was over $4 and everyone was panicking and buying up smaller cars to save one fuel? Then remember a year or 2 later when gas went down below $3 and everyone started buying giant pickups and SUVs because we were in the clear, even though forecasters said it would happen again? Guess what in a year or 2 we'll be over $4 again and then what's gonna happen? Gas will keep going up cause everyone needs to put in 30 gallons of fuel into their truck every other day.
I don't think there are words to describe how stupid I think most of the people in this country are. Either that or all the smart ones are hiding in fear of being labeled as outsiders of some sort.

I'm all for diesels and small engined cars, I have one. I had my fun with v8s in high school and college but now, it's time to get serious and spend money elsewhere and not dumping it down the filler neck of a 5000lb monster.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'd agree with what Famine and Cracker have said. In my experience of US freeways the traffic tends to travel no quicker than on UK motorways (indeed, a large volume of traffic sitting at 85-90mph isn't uncommon even on two-lane roads like the A1), though one difference is that there's usually a lot more traffic on the multi-laners in the States. The outright speed isn't inherently a danger.

Acceleration is more of an issue, I think compounded by the fact that a lot of cars in the States are still sold with power-sapping autos. When I drove a 2.4 litre PT Cruiser with an auto box (and about 150bhp), I'd genuinely say it was no quicker - if not slower - accelerating than my car at the time, a 60bhp Ford Fiesta similar to the cars Famine mentioned. A small car with a power-sapping slushbox is asking for trouble. A small car with a manual box can be made to go quicker than you'd think.

As for slip roads, I'd add that the diesel smart I drove had similar acceleration figures to my old Fiesta - it had 54bhp to the Ford's 60bhp. I tested this theory on a two-lane sliproad onto the M1 where I followed a spiritedly-driven Ford Ka (same engine as the Fiesta) onto the motorway and it couldn't lose me. Incidentally, we were both doing 70mph by the end of the slip road, and the smart is one of the slowest accelerating cars on sale in the UK.

However, I suspect many US buyers wouldn't be comfortable thrashing a car to get up to freeway speeds. Just because the car will do so when asked, it doesn't mean the driver will want to push it that hard.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

As for slip roads, I'd add that the diesel smart I drove had similar acceleration figures to my old Fiesta - it had 54bhp to the Ford's 60bhp. I tested this theory on a two-lane sliproad onto the M1 where I followed a spiritedly-driven Ford Ka (same engine as the Fiesta) onto the motorway and it couldn't lose me. Incidentally, we were both doing 70mph by the end of the slip road, and the smart is one of the slowest accelerating cars on sale in the UK.

In all fairness that was just the Ka driver not doing it properly or it being in poor condition. Almost no one I know red lines a car and they look at you like you've murdered babies when you do. That's the beauty of diesel because of the way it delivers torque you don't have to hammer the rev range to get reasonable acceleration where as a petrol short shifting absolutely kills power.

 

[Azuremen]

Just for reference, this is goosenaargh.

Famine, I was mostly referring to the short exchange ramps and merging distances present in southern California, and thus more concerned with acceleration than eventual cruising speed.

This is also an issue in rural areas, where you often get onto highways from stop signs, meaning going from a stand to 65mph with traffic in a single lane, so waiting for an opening. The slower the car, the bigger the distance needs to be, and if there is an F-350 barreling down the road and your in one of those cute Euro cars, it could be a bit stressful.

 

[FoolKiller]

Because diesels don't like doing the Stop-Start stuff that make hybrids work. There have been advancements in that area, but most heavy diesel supporters don't really care because the consumers that buy diesels don't care.

VW XL1 Hybird diesel revealed at the Quatar auto show last month. - 260 mpg. Hybrid diesels now work. Getting it in a consumer-ready car is the next step.
http://www.insideline.com/volkswagen/volkswagen-xl1-tops-260-mpg.html

2. americans still slip dollar amounts of gas or diesel into their fuel tanks, rather than however many gallons/liters necessary, and would rather put in 5 bucks a day than 50 bucks at once.

My wife does this. Drives me crazy.


Oh, Sam48, pass this on to your teacher:
http://tdi.vw.com/5882-mpg-guinness-world-record-set-by-jetta-tdi/

 

[YSSMAN]

My old Volkswagen Fox had an 81 BHP I4, and it would happily cruise along all day at the Michigan speed limit (ie, 80+ MPH). Although it was a little worrying at times merging onto highways in town from a stop sign, it was no slower than your average Civic or Corolla as long as you were putting in the work. Best of all, no matter how hard I drove it, I always managed 32 MPG.

God, I miss that car.

 

[Keef]

Now, imagine a standing start - though the cars won't be standing, but let's assume that they are - with an aim to hit 70mph before a point a quarter of a mile away. We've just described a drag race I'm not aware of anyone who's done a drag run with a Polo Bluemotion (they would, after all, need sectioning), but pretty much any vehicle in production today can hit 70mph at the end of a strip - no data here, but I would honestly be surprised if the BlueMotion fell short. Something like a Smart ForTwo or the Toyota iQ though, yes.

In practice, your theory falls apart. It simply doesn't matter how quickly a car is able to accelerate. Here in America it seems that people accelerate up a highway on-ramp at half the acceleration potentential of their car...up to a flatline of half the potential rate of a 120 horspower car.

If they're driving an 80 horsepower car they're using 40 of it to accelerate because the thing makes scary noises if they use any more. If they're driving a 120 horsepower car they use 60 of it for the same reason. If they're driving a 240 horsepower car, its half-max is already past their maximum pressed-into-the-seat-omg-I-can't-control-this-thing comfortability threshold and are still using 60 horses (adjusted for increasingly powerful cars' increasingly powerful weight) to merge onto the freeway. Every now and then you see a redneck in a 5.0 attemtping to use all 220 horses, but 30 of them are spewing out the exhaust as oil fumes so he's still going mighty slow.

Beyond that, the rate at which they accelerate seems to be directly related to - and I'm being dead serious here - their political affiliation, more often than not. Just yesterday I got stuck behind a Camry Hybrid with an Obama bumper sticker and by the time the dotted line ended he was going a whole 50 miles per hour. Needless to say a floored it around him and negated all his fuel and emissions savings for the past week.

As for Azuremen's point about shorty-style entrance ramps, I agree with him completely. Throughout the Appalachians, and especially in Pennsylvania, you'll find some ramps that are no longer that 200 feet with a stop sign at the bottom. The highways they merge onto can be surprisingly busy, and I know because I've driven on them a few times now, even in rush hour traffic. It's honestly terrifying to be in the righthand lane, watching some 1980 Suburban floor the pedal, puke out a plume of carbon smoke, and not be anywhere near highway speed by the time you have to mack the brakes and cut over a lane to avoid hitting him. While you're towing a trailer. These ramps can be summed up with one word: dangerous. A GT-R would struggle to negotiate them without startling other traffic.

 

[MistaX]

I'm pretty sure tractor trailers don't do 0-60 in any reasonable time and they can merge just fine.

Just because you're in a small car doesn't mean everyone else on the road has gone blind.



I had an incident with the Escort where I was ~100 miles from home and it'd only do 45mph before misfiring to hell. I made it home just fine, the entire trip taking place on highways. Hills were fun, it'd drop to about 15mph.


It's completely reasonable to drive a car that's slow. It's not unsafe, it's a bit boring but that's about it.

 

[Keef]

I'm pretty sure tractor trailers don't do 0-60 in any reasonable time and they can merge just fine.

When they're without a trailer, sure. When I'm behind even an empty-trailered truck it becomes a major nuisance because they're never going highway speed by the time the merge lane ends.

Just because you're in a small car doesn't mean everyone else on the road has gone blind.

Many of them are already blind. Like those people who refuse to move over a lane to let traffic merge despite there being nobody on the other side. Those people are hardly ever going highway speed either, even though they're already on the highway.

It's completely reasonable to drive a car that's slow. It's not unsafe, it's a bit boring but that's about it.

My argument isn't against slow cars, it's against slow people. They're already slow enough in a 250 horse Camry. Put them all in 80 horse shoeboxes and on-ramps would become obstacle courses, with me slaloming in and out of all the idiots, trying to find some clear asphalt.

 

[MistaX]

When I'm behind even an empty-trailered truck it becomes a major nuisance because they're never going highway speed by the time the merge lane ends.

That's your problem.

Many of them are already blind. Like those people who refuse to move over a lane to let traffic merge despite there being nobody on the other side. Those people are hardly ever going highway speed either, even though they're already on the highway.

So you're mad that they're going slow in the slow lane?

My argument isn't against slow cars, it's against slow people. They're already slow enough in a 250 horse Camry. Put them all in 80 horse shoeboxes and on-ramps would become obstacle courses, with me slaloming in and out of all the idiots, trying to find some clear asphalt.

So you're just a dick.

World doesn't revolve around you and your lead foot.

 

[homeforsummer]

In all fairness that was just the Ka driver not doing it properly or it being in poor condition.

I don't get what you mean by this? I used to own a Fiesta with the same engine that Kas have. It's an 8v, 60bhp 1.3. I'm aware how fast it accelerates when taken to the red line, and quoted 0-60 is about the same time as the 800cc turbodiesel Smart at 15 seconds-ish. If the Ka was accelerating hard and I was too, it makes sense that we were keeping roughly level.

Almost no one I know red lines a car and they look at you like you've murdered babies when you do. That's the beauty of diesel because of the way it delivers torque you don't have to hammer the rev range to get reasonable acceleration where as a petrol short shifting absolutely kills power.

I was revving out the diesel as you need to in the smart if you actually want to go anything resembling quickly. It's happy to pootle at low revs too, but it's also happy to rev should you need to. A 3-cyl 800cc engine will be happy to spin whatever fuel is powering it. Not a lot of inertia with a motor that small. It even sounds pretty good.

 

[Keef]

So you're mad that they're going slow in the slow lane?

They can go however slow they want to go in the slow lane, but at least they could be courteous enough to move over a lane for 10 seconds to give merging traffic room to merge. Don't tell me you've never been in a situation where two cars - one on the highway and one merging - met in the same place at the same time in the same lane, and wondered who should be the one to make room - the guy on the ramp in between a car and wall, or the guy with a whole 2 empty lanes to the left of him.

In the interest of common efficiency, sometimes people just need to get the hell out of the way for a few seconds. It's really easy to do, it avoids conflict, nobodys feelings get hurt, nobody gets pissed, nobody had to let off the cruise control, nobodys day is ruined, and maybe if you're into that sort of thing you'll have a giddy feeling inside because you worked as a team with another motorist. In the interest of common efficiency.

So you're just a dick.

If driving smoothly and efficiently is me being a dick, then so be it. That must mean the dude who brake-checked me when I politely flashed my brights so he'd get out of the passing lane must be a really swell guy.

World doesn't revolve around you and your lead foot.

As far as I can tell it revolves around the laws of physics, and me slamming into your trunk when you stop at the end of an on-ramp because you're scared is a good lesson in that. Get off the road if piloting a 4000 pound vehicle into a gap 20 feet wide is too serious a task for you.

I take a mental note of precisely how long my car is. I pull up to a parking block so that my front end is right on the edge, I get out and note this fact, then I get back in to take mental note of what it looks like out my front and side windows when my nose is that close to an object, then I practice parking like that consistently. I do this for the front, sides, and rear. I'm almost embarrased to have to make the point, but I've never run over a curb or bumped into anything or backed into anything, all of which i've seen people do in recent months. I know within a few inches exactly where my car is in relation to objects around it, and I can stop at a line, back up to a line, run over a bottle, drive over things without hitting them, squeeze into tight spaces, and I've had to put all these skills to use more than a few times, merging into the only gaps available that were literally just big enough to fit my car in. Dangerous? Only if everyone else freaks out and hammers on the brakes. I obviously know where my car is because I put it here, which you never thought I could do, but I did. Carry on - I promise I won't run into you.

And no, I don't think that that is asking too much of drivers, simply to know where their vehicle is in space and how to operate it. I once got in an argument with a guitarist outside of Starbucks about how important driving skills are. He said he'd rather concentrate on playing guitar. I asked him if he rode his guitar to work every day. What? You don't? Of course you don't idiot, you drive a car. Be good at it. These things are powerful enough to kill people and driving them is very serious business. Nobody has ever commited murder with a gnarly guitar riff.

 

[Famine]

In practice, your theory falls apart. It simply doesn't matter how quickly a car is able to accelerate. Here in America it seems that people accelerate up a highway on-ramp at half the acceleration potentential of their car...up to a flatline of half the potential rate of a 120 horspower car.

Then it's not the car that's at fault, but the driver of it...

These ramps can be summed up with one word: dangerous. A GT-R would struggle to negotiate them without startling other traffic.

Then it's not the car that's at fault, but the ramps.

If nothing slower than a GT-R is safe on these roads, exactly what can you buy that is safe? A Camry or a Malibu sure as buttons isn't.

There's nothing intrinsically "dangerous" about a 60hp car - on your roads or on ours. They don't lack the performance required to drive on public roads.

 

[MistaX]

Words

This all posted by someone who crashed into a median because they decided to do 120mph on a road they didn't know.


Any point you try to make is invalid because I know for a fact you drive like a dick.

 

[Tornado]

That's your problem.



So you're mad that they're going slow in the slow lane?




So you're just a dick.

World doesn't revolve around you and your lead foot.

This all posted by someone who crashed into a median because they decided to do 120mph on a road they didn't know.


Any point you try to make is invalid because I know for a fact you drive like a dick.

Is it really too much to ask that you hang whatever dirty laundry you have with Keef somewhere else instead of purposely misreading his posts to pick fights? Seriously.

 

[MistaX]

Is it really too much to ask that you hang whatever dirty laundry you have with Keef somewhere else instead of purposely misreading his posts to pick fights? Seriously.

I'm proving that his entire argument is stupid and he's being an idiot about it, like usual.


Is this thread really a place for you to make commentary about how I'm discussing a topic?

I think a post like that is better fit for a PM.

 

[Tornado]

So, no then. Thanks for the prompt response, at least.

 

[Stevisiov]

There's nothing intrinsically "dangerous" about a 60hp car - on your roads or on ours. They don't lack the performance required to drive on public roads.

I think this basically surmises it.

The efficient diesels aren't dangerous in the states, due to lack of speed, but perhaps peoples perceptions of the speed are part of the reasons they aren't popular.

 

[Keef]

This all posted by someone who crashed into a median because they decided to do 120mph on a road they didn't know.


Any point you try to make is invalid because I know for a fact you drive like a dick.

I'll own up t my stupid mistake which affected me, but nobody else. I have a habit of learning my lessons the hard way. If you should listen to anybody about why going 120 on the highway is bad it should be me, but of course I wouldn't be bothered if you ignored me because that's what I did. Go try it for yourself, then you'll be an expert on the subject.

My only point is that people already suck at driving. Put them in anything slower and they'll only get worse.

 

[MistaX]

Go try it for yourself, then you'll be an expert on the subject.

As if I haven't gone 120mph on a public roadway before...

I just didn't crash while doing it. They were roads I knew (except one, but coming up that highway north it was dead straight so it was safe to assume the southbound side was dead straight too) and the conditions were "safe" to the point where there was no one on the road but me.

Every accident I've had happened at legal speed or below, ironically.

 

[Joey D]

I never get why people slag on low horsepower vehicles. My car doesn't have very much power at all and the 0-60 is north of 9 seconds. I even remember when I was talking about what sort of car I wanted to get on GTP, people told me 9+ seconds 0-60 was dangerously slow. It was even worse among the idiotic "hardcore V8" crowd I know, they told me that I would be dead trying to drive it on I-75. Being alive and well three years later really showed them ! I've never had an issue with highway on ramps, pulling into traffic from a side street/driveway or just accelerating from a stop light. And my car will cruise down the freeway at a pretty good nick.

Horsepower needs to be looked at in relation to weight, I think that's something people forget.

 

[Keef]

As if I haven't gone 120mph on a public roadway before...

I just didn't crash while doing it. They were roads I knew (except one, but coming up that highway north it was dead straight so it was safe to assume the southbound side was dead straight too) and the conditions were "safe" to the point where there was no one on the road but me.

Every accident I've had happened at legal speed or below, ironically.

Then speed isn't much a factor, is it? Whether people are in slow cars or fast cars they're still going to run into things because they're dumb. The problem arises when some people are going fast and some people are going slow - then the speed differential becomes dangerous.

Like Famine said, there's nothing inherently dangerous with slow cars, but I strongly believe that there is a problem with slow people. And back to my point, putting them in slower cars makes them go even slower and therefore makes them that much more dangerous. This is why I advocate cooperation amongst drivers. I'll work with you if you work with me and vice versa, but when they're in cars that are faster than mine yet are already refusing to cooperate with the norm, the very last thing you should do is put them in a slower car because they'll cooperate that much less.

Drivers in America will never be able to agree on anything because half of them are eager and the other half are stubborn. I'd be glad to drive a 5 horsepower car and get a billion miles per gallon, but ol' dude in the Avalanche just isn't having it.

I'd ague that even if every single car on the road was a shoebox there would still be a ridiculous speed differential and there would still be just as many accidents. But hey, at least we're all getting good mileage, right?

 

[GT5Junkie]

Every now and then you see a redneck in a 5.0 attemtping to use all 220 horses, but 30 of them are spewing out the exhaust as oil fumes so he's still going mighty slow.

My problem is always douchebags in RX-7s that for some reason think they have a performance car but in reality their car isn't even capable of accelerating up a 3% grade onramp if the air conditioning is on. And while it's taking 9 or 10 seconds to get to 60 mph it's consuming the same gasoline as a small V8 and puking apex seals out its exhaust pipe.

 

[Tornado]

How subtle.

 

[Owen.C93]

The Renault Megane 170 diesel is faster in the midrange (60-80) than the 225 hp petrol. Plus MPG goes from about 30 to 45.

Pretty cool car IMO.

 

[Azuremen]

How subtle.

Much like your posts commenting on it all.

Irony?

A lot of people do have poor merging habits, this is true. It is also true Keef is young, impatient, and not always the best about thinking things out before acting.

Joey, getting to 60 in 9 seconds is fine. Getting to 60 in 15 is a bit different. It makes merging, pulling out from stop signs at highways, and so on all a bit more complicated. At least for a driver that doesn't want to cause people to get on their brakes or to slow down. And I personally don't like putting faith in other drivers.

 

[Tornado]

Much like your posts commenting on it all.

Irony?

Indeed.

 

[BigYoSpeck]

I don't get what you mean by this? I used to own a Fiesta with the same engine that Kas have. It's an 8v, 60bhp 1.3. I'm aware how fast it accelerates when taken to the red line, and quoted 0-60 is about the same time as the 800cc turbodiesel Smart at 15 seconds-ish. If the Ka was accelerating hard and I was too, it makes sense that we were keeping roughly level.

16.8 for the smart and the KA is around the 14 mark depending on the trim. In large part that will be the auto box in the smart really holding it back, a Ka should show it's heals if driven properly and not down on power or laden with weight.

Now if you're both pootling at 50 in top gear and put your foot down to pull it up to 70, if the Ka driver doesn't drop a cog I've no doubt the smart will more comfortably cruise up to it as the mid range power of a diesel makes it more usable in the real world.

 

[FoolKiller]

Like Famine said, there's nothing inherently dangerous with slow cars, but I strongly believe that there is a problem with slow people. And back to my point, putting them in slower cars makes them go even slower and therefore makes them that much more dangerous. This is why I advocate cooperation amongst drivers. I'll work with you if you work with me and vice versa, but when they're in cars that are faster than mine yet are already refusing to cooperate with the norm, the very last thing you should do is put them in a slower car because they'll cooperate that much less.

After reading everything you have said I have to assume one of two things, possibly a combination of both. 1) There is an epidemic of slow drivers in Ohio not seen anywhere else. B) You move faster than the majority of traffic/are exaggerating.

I could believe 1 after driving through Ohio a number of times. But the Ohio Highway Patrol is in force in an insane way. I have been through all but a handful of the states east of the Mississippi, Michigan and parts of New England being the missed states, and I have seen more Highway Patrol coverage in Ohio than anywhere else. But I can also see it being B. On a daily basis I run across the one guy doing something like 60 in a 70 zone. But rarely is there more than just one. The rest of the people that appear slow are actually doing the speed limit. As traffic in general is moving faster they aren't doing the "safe speed" but I'm not about to raise a fuss over people obeying the law. But I wonder what your average highway speed is. You make it sound like you have to swerve around slow drivers like its an obstacle course. If that is the case then it is you not doing the safe speed.

The other thing I feel I should point out is that you complain about people not accelerating to their car's full potential. Because I like my gas mileage to stay above 15 mpg I don't either. I don't need all 150 horses when leaving a traffic light. I'm not in a race. If you leave a traffic light and see everyone else is behind you by something like 20 yards by the time you reach your cruising speed, you are the one being a D-bag. There is no need to test your 0-60 time every time you start from a stop. I also don't try to match my minimum braking distance at every stop. In fact, when I drive normal I shift gears before I hit 3,000 RPM. My full power range is up over 4,500 RPM, but even here I still tend to pull away from the rest of traffic a bit because I do have decent low-end torque. If I am trying to conserve fuel for some reason I have been known to shift before hitting 2,000 RPM.



To be honest, what bothers me more than the guy driving slow is inconsistent drivers. Some alter their speed during sections of the interstate, going slower than the speed limit in one area and faster in others. Then the squeamish drivers that slow down as they pass trucks and ride beside them for a few miles, only to speed up again after they are past them. And the cell phone driver. They fly by at 80+ only to suddenly start doing 55-60 and when I pass them I see they are on the phone. Then they fly by me again and the phone is gone. I'd rather a single fixed obstacle that I can see how to avoid than a guy that can't decide if he is an obstacle or a projectile. And guys that are always a projectile are problematic too, as not only are they outside the safe speed range but they distract other drivers by intimidating them.